Does any other nation but ours...

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Wed May 03, 2006 5:34 am

As for your latest:

Step 5: Hit non compliant business owners up the bejeezus with crippling fines, revocations of business licenses and even prison time. Show them in none too uncertain terms that they will no longer be allowed to skirt the law. Hold unethical businesses accountable. Hold their feet to the fire until the risk of losing everything becomes so real and so pervasive that the Risk/Reward quotient dictates their future actions too.

Good step. Now change it to Step 1 and you've got something.

The United States Of America will not trade in self destructive business practices. She will protect her own at home, and this begins with enforcing all laws regarding non compliant businesses.

wait a sec...BWAAAHAHAHAHA! Ok, sorry.

sincerely, the last 40 years

RadioFan · Post by **RadioFan** » Wed May 03, 2006 5:35 am

Van wrote:Splash it all over every front page of every newspaper all around the world.

We're working on it, on many levels. In fact, we've been so successful, we're thinking about not televising our daily news briefings.

Sincerely,

The Bush Administration.

Van, you mean well, bro, and it was a good post.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed May 03, 2006 5:48 am

PSUFAN wrote:As for your latest:

Step 5: Hit non compliant business owners up the bejeezus with crippling fines, revocations of business licenses and even prison time. Show them in none too uncertain terms that they will no longer be allowed to skirt the law. Hold unethical businesses accountable. Hold their feet to the fire until the risk of losing everything becomes so real and so pervasive that the Risk/Reward quotient dictates their future actions too.
Good step. Now change it to Step 1 and you've got something.

Can't. Step 1 has to first establish who is and isn't an illegal immigrant in this country and that must be accomplished by a highly visible act of Congress. You can't go after business owners who hire illegals until first you establish that the people they're hiring are in fact illegals.

If you wanna bump it up to "Step 2" status though, fine.

The United States Of America will not trade in self destructive business practices. She will protect her own at home, and this begins with enforcing all laws regarding non compliant businesses.
wait a sec...BWAAAHAHAHAHA! Ok, sorry.

sincerely, the last 40 years

Not all that long a period of time in the Big Picture, and certainly not a situation where it's too late to learn from our mistakes.

The alternative is...what? To do nothing, to change nothing, and just keep making the same mistakes?

Nah. The problem is obvious and so is the solution. We can't hide from it any longer.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed May 03, 2006 5:51 am

PSUFAN wrote:
Van wrote:more jingo invective sopped up from talk radio and wrung out here

Cute, 'cept I don't listen to the radio at all (except for Kings games and the occasional stint with Don & Mike), much less political talk radio.

Very impressive. I can't wait to read your contributions in the "piss on illegal employers" thread.

They'd probably read very similar to yours, since we're in complete agreement here.

Racks to Whitey.

Sincerely,
Not Your Underwear

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Wed May 03, 2006 5:59 am

Did you ever hear of this thing they call...NAFTA?

Did you ever hear of...offshoring?

What was that about not engaging in self-destructive business practices?

certainly not a situation where it's too late to learn from our mistakes.

Well shit, let's get busy then. On tonight's list:

-devise a working system for identifying legal citizenship or lack thereof (tattoos? ID cards? Your papers, comrade?)
-Securing all of our borders
-showing illegal employers we mean business
-reverse self-destructive business practices (rejoice, Detroit! Huzzah, Rust Belt!!)

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed May 03, 2006 6:40 am

Well shit, let's get busy then. On tonight's list:

-devise a working system for identifying legal citizenship or lack thereof (tattoos? ID cards? Your papers, comrade?)

We already have such a system. We simply don't use it. As a rule identifying illegals isn't the least bit difficult once you attempt to do so.

-Securing all of our borders

To the point that nobody could ever slip through? Not possible.

To the point that at least on the Mexican border we could make the notion of illegally crossing our border so unpleasant that it'd discourage the vast majority of the people who currently have no real fear whatsoever of being caught?

Not difficult at all.

-showing illegal employers we mean business

Gotta happen, obviously. The question is when? Never?

-reverse self-destructive business practices (rejoice, Detroit! Huzzah, Rust Belt!!)

Simply and specifically referring to cutting off our noses to spite our faces by having some businesses subsisting almost solely on the backs of underpaid illegal workers.

While we can never create laws and policies that would prevent any and all stupid business decisions from being made (locally, regionally or internationally) we definitely can create a climate of fear among U.S. business owners who otherwise would have no qualms with hiring nothing but illegals.

We could make the notion of hiring illegals something that just won't be considered by a savvy business owner. The question isn't whether we could do it; rather, it's whether we'll ever choose to do it and then will we follow through with the hard work necessary in making it stick?

We're going to have to do something, one way or the other. Eventually, hell, we might as well do the right thing.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Wed May 03, 2006 6:54 am

Fair enough. Illegal employers are the key element in this. While government turns a blind eye to those who avail themselves of illegal labor, everything else is just a bunch of hot air.

RadioFan · Post by **RadioFan** » Wed May 03, 2006 7:10 am

Van wrote:To the point that nobody could ever slip through? Not possible.

To the point that at least on the Mexican border we could make the notion of illegally crossing our border so unpleasant that it'd discourage the vast majority of the people who currently have no real fear whatsoever of being caught?

Not difficult at all.

Dream on, brother, unless you're all in favor of building a true wall.

Honest question, Van ... Do you live in a gated "community?"

Aside from the fact that "gated community" is an oxymoron ...

And yet, it's so "SAFE."

As in ... The Latest American Dream Developers (with illegals, building their complexes, no doubt) would say ... "It's Darn Right, Darn Tight, American!"

Don't ya think?

Or did I leave out some quote marks somewhere?

Sorry if I left out the huge rolling eyes emoticon(s) in this post.

Or am I ahead of myself, for when the next major earthquake or tsunami hits, and you can make a long, ranting post about why, why, why.

Get a fucking grip. If I were a Coyote, I'd take your ass across, for half-price, Gringo. And I wouldn't ask why, I'd just know.

Out.

socal · Post by **socal** » Wed May 03, 2006 12:17 pm

Van,

Ever the loquacious melter...

First your points as I channel Marcus:

1. Are we a sovereign nation with porous borders that need attention? Yes.

2. Should we be able to dictate and control who comes in and who goes ooot? Yes.

Questions for you:

1. Are you ready for $8 lettuce? For a dirty Chipotle's bathroom?

2. Are you prepared to rip families apart?

3. Where's the rage for all immigrants who overstay their visas and junk? More aesthetically pleasing I suppose?

4. Would a dry-iced pink fog ('sup Diego) enveloping our fine state be your idea of a good thing all-day, everyday? Consider the unintended consequences to the homeless in the greater Sacto region not to mention the budgetary deficits you'll be running up in Depends. (Don't worry they won't show through the leathers.)
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Spinach Genie · Post by **Spinach Genie** » Wed May 03, 2006 12:27 pm

War Wagon wrote:
Spinach Genie wrote: Arrest them? Deport them?
Hmmm, I see your point.

Van, mvscal, and yourself are going to deputize each other and arrest and/or deport these 12 million illegals single handedly.

If the 3 of you aren't enough, I'm sure Jess can spare some time from his busy schedule to help tie up the loose ends.

Yaaaaah!

Youse guys will be heroes!

Are you really this big of a walking headwound? Fuck, nothing we can do about it...so let's just grant amnesty. Then when 12 million more of their cousins pour across to join them, we can grant them amnesty too. And their collective social drain will turn this country happily into another third-world shithole. That appears to be your attitude. At least you get cheap labor out of it, I guess.

This isn't about urban gangbangers shooting each other.

What it is about is a problem and trying to correct the problem, which doesn't begin by ignoring it. Sorry you didn't get it.

Spinach Genie · Post by **Spinach Genie** » Wed May 03, 2006 12:34 pm

socal wrote:Van,

Ever the loquacious melter...

First your points as I channel Marcus:

1. Are we a sovereign nation with porous borders that need attention? Yes.

2. Should we be able to dictate and control who comes in and who goes ooot? Yes.

Then you've just agreed with Van's point.

1. Are you ready for $8 lettuce? For a dirty Chipotle's bathroom?

$8 lettuce? Link?

2. Are you prepared to rip families apart?

I'd say the illegals are the only ones ripping families apart.

3. Where's the rage for all immigrants who overstay their visas and junk? More aesthetically pleasing I suppose?

At least they have a visa. It is on record. If they overstay, they can be monitored and dealt with accordingly. They aren't clogging up emergency rooms with shit like tuberculosis and sucking down social welfare at out of control rates either.

tough love · Post by **tough love** » Wed May 03, 2006 1:47 pm

I still say the whole mess get's down to the irony of how the act of greed in a country which prides itself on it's profit before people mentality done up and bit it on the ass, but if these poor folk are keeping the prices of products down for the consumer, then it could be that they are doing your country a service afterall.

Perhaps you folks just need to get a better handle on your real problem and do something about that profit's before people thingy you got going on cuz it's a stupid way to exist if you don't belong to the upper crust of a society, which The Vast Majority of your own people don't.

I suggest you hug an illegal, and eat the freakin rich today.

Thank You for your time.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed May 03, 2006 2:24 pm

SoCal, there's no reason for us to be staring at $8 heads of lettuce.

Besides, how's your auto insurance bill looking lately? Your medical coverage bill?

Had to use an ER lately? (Now, granted, because you're a school teacher your co-pays might actually still be small so some of this may not be affecting you...)

As for ripping families apart?? I'd say those families were already ripped apart when pops took off for America, leaving his wife and kids back home to wait for his next paycheck.

Not that it should even matter to us but sending illegals back home should primarily serve to reunite families.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Wed May 03, 2006 2:32 pm

Many mexicans do have a strong sense of family. It's literally all that they have. Their family is so strong that they come to this country, work, and send money back.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed May 03, 2006 2:36 pm

No denying that.

Doesn't change the fact though that coming here as an illegal often as not serves to break up families, which is the opposite of SoCal's point.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Wed May 03, 2006 2:43 pm

So, say you have a family in mexico. You look at your wife and kids and you look at the prospects you have at feeding them. You have a vast industrial and agricultural economy to your north, and very likely you have friends and relatives that have gone there and are sending CASH back for their families. You have employers welcoming you with open arms, because you work hard, and you come to them cheap. You have politicians and law enforcement who are unwilling to fuck with illegal employers.

You look at your wife, and she tells you to go Norte and make some fucking money. What do you do? Don't bother answering, it's really not necessary. As you head north, you have the feeling that you're doing what you can do for your family. You're not worrying about what Vincente Fox or George Bush might think about your intentions - you're taking risks for the good of your family.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Wed May 03, 2006 2:55 pm

Good story.

Sirfindafold · Post by **Sirfindafold** » Wed May 03, 2006 3:05 pm

PSUFAN wrote:You have politicians and law enforcement who are unwilling to fuck with illegal employers.

PSU, It seems as if you want to make businesses who hire illegals as the biggest culprit here. In many instances, there is nothing an employer can do. If a worker has a SS# and/or some other type of ID that declares him legal, employers have to honor it.

We are only recently starting to hear word from the government the need to terminate employees with bogus SS numbers.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Wed May 03, 2006 3:50 pm

It seems as if you want to make businesses who hire illegals as the biggest culprit here.

I'll own up to that.

There is a tremendous amount of hipocracy on the issue, from those who refuse to consider the role that illegal employers play in this. You may make the case that employers can do nothing, unfortunately, that's an argument that one can make for the illegals, as well...that their desperation has also limited their alternatives.

If there are no teeth in the existing laws that prevent employers from identifying right-to-work status, then it's time to put them in there - and enforce them, despite the fact that it will be politically unpopular. I say this because I see illegal employers and their demand for cheap labor as something that we can get a glove on more readily than conditions elsewhere.

Uncle Fester · Post by **Uncle Fester** » Wed May 03, 2006 4:00 pm

We need MORE immigrants to do all the jobs Americans won't do. Bring 'em on!
-President Dumbfuck

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Wed May 03, 2006 4:08 pm

Like I said - Bush is soft on immigration because he knows going after illegal employers will hurt him politically, and because he wants hispanic votes for his party down the line. He's in a tough spot - if his demographics geeks weren't on him to play nice with hispanics, then he'd be on the jingo train with guys like Hannity...yet, his current constituency ahbors the idea that immigrants are here waving their flags and getting uppity.

tough love · Post by **tough love** » Wed May 03, 2006 4:16 pm

Pus Wrote:
There is a tremendous amount of hipocracy on the issue

Yes, but they sure do make for easy targets - The United States Oil Industry.

Spinach Genie · Post by **Spinach Genie** » Wed May 03, 2006 4:37 pm

PSUFAN wrote:Like I said - Bush is soft on immigration because he knows going after illegal employers will hurt him politically, and because he wants hispanic votes for his party down the line. He's in a tough spot - if his demographics geeks weren't on him to play nice with hispanics, then he'd be on the jingo train with guys like Hannity...yet, his current constituency ahbors the idea that immigrants are here waving their flags and getting uppity.

Every politician is dealing with this. It's been amusing, in a sad way, to watch both sides try and juggle this one.

Neely8 · Post by **Neely8** » Wed May 03, 2006 4:40 pm

mvscal wrote:
Spinach Genie wrote:
PSUFAN wrote:Like I said - Bush is soft on immigration because he knows going after illegal employers will hurt him politically, and because he wants hispanic votes for his party down the line. He's in a tough spot - if his demographics geeks weren't on him to play nice with hispanics, then he'd be on the jingo train with guys like Hannity...yet, his current constituency ahbors the idea that immigrants are here waving their flags and getting uppity.
Every politician is dealing with this. It's been amusing, in a sad way, to watch both sides try and juggle this one.
I'll say it again. Whichever party or candidate gets out front with a hardline on illegal immigration is going to take the White House in 08.

The issue is completely up for grabs.

I would vote for them D or R.........

Spinach Genie · Post by **Spinach Genie** » Wed May 03, 2006 4:42 pm

mvscal wrote:I'll say it again. Whichever party or candidate gets out front with a hardline on illegal immigration is going to take the White House in 08.

The issue is completely up for grabs.

Amazing, isn't it? I've been shocked the democrats didn't seize up on Bush's hesitancy on it right off and chase it. It's not like consistency is one of their better attributes anyway. I haven't really seen any '08 hopefuls positioning on it yet. If Hillary wasn't running in NYC, I'm sure she'd be burning Mexican flags already.

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Wed May 03, 2006 4:44 pm

The illegal immigration issue is the most pressing issue since gay marriage.

Sincerely,
Party who has failed on every other issue.

Neely8 · Post by **Neely8** » Wed May 03, 2006 4:46 pm

Spinach Genie wrote:
mvscal wrote:I'll say it again. Whichever party or candidate gets out front with a hardline on illegal immigration is going to take the White House in 08.

The issue is completely up for grabs.
Amazing, isn't it? I've been shocked the democrats didn't seize up on Bush's hesitancy on it right off and chase it. It's not like consistency is one of their better attributes anyway. I haven't really seen any '08 hopefuls positioning on it yet. If Hillary wasn't running in NYC, I'm sure she'd be burning Mexican flags already.

She could crap on an immigrants face and scream "Death to them all" and I still wouldn't vote for her. Thats one Democrat that will never get my vote. No matter what. Democrats are crazy if they nominate her. The Oprah crowd isn't that big......

Y2K · Post by **Y2K** » Wed May 03, 2006 5:02 pm

Spinach Genie wrote:
PSUFAN wrote:Like I said - Bush is soft on immigration because he knows going after illegal employers will hurt him politically, and because he wants hispanic votes for his party down the line. He's in a tough spot - if his demographics geeks weren't on him to play nice with hispanics, then he'd be on the jingo train with guys like Hannity...yet, his current constituency ahbors the idea that immigrants are here waving their flags and getting uppity.
Every politician is dealing with this. It's been amusing, in a sad way, to watch both sides try and juggle this one.

Both political parties have been pandering to the illegals for so long now they've created another form of percieved entitlement by Hispanics from Mexico and Central America. Most are purposely kept uneducated so they can't challange the corrupt status quo in these countries. By design only a percentage of the population is allowed an option to acheive as to keep the country functional. The ruling elite have banked on America's compassionate side and show the support they do for Mexicans living in the USA so they can continue to enslave their masses and fleece them for every American Dollar sent into their country as well as getting policies created so they can sell us their goods and services at profits even the Chinese can respect.

If we challenge this entitlement there will be anarchy and bloodshed, it will further cripple and divide a nation already splitting apart from excessive political and class warfare. Any way this works out the Average Middle Class Citizen in the USA is fucked. It's going to get very ugly.

Y2K · Post by **Y2K** » Wed May 03, 2006 5:07 pm

they're more interested in promoting international communism than protecting the workers who pay their salaries.

Exactly on the $ mvscal.

Communisim is most definately alive and well.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Wed May 03, 2006 5:39 pm

Unions don't give a flying fuck about "communism". They are interested in securing their rights - specifically, the rights of their executives to pull down 6 and 7 figure salaries.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Wed May 03, 2006 5:46 pm

Your Red Scare crap is utterly played.

Nor is it remotely necessary...not many folks are going to chime in with glowing admiration of unions - because unions have consistently shown themselves to resemble the organizations that they interact with...laden down with bloat at the top, unready for the 21st century in any measurable aspect.

But if the "Lenin is at the door" crap works for you, then roll with it, I guess...

Terry in Crapchester · Wed May 03, 2006 5:47 pm

PSU gets a rack. Right on the money in this thread.

Terry in Crapchester · Wed May 03, 2006 5:52 pm

mvscal wrote:It's not a scare. It's a simple fact. Your ignorance of the facts is quite beside the point.

Lessee here . . .

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=communism

com·mu·nism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kmy-nzm)
n.
A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
Communism
A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.

Sorry to disappoint you, but what the unions are advocating in the U.S. looks nothing like Communism, even if we throw the borders completely open.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Wed May 03, 2006 5:52 pm

Do tell, professor. Please explain to us where we are beset by the Evils of Communism.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Wed May 03, 2006 6:08 pm

mvscal wrote:
PSUFAN wrote:Do tell, professor. Please explain to us where we are beset by the Evils of Communism.
What? You didn't see any pictures of those marches on Monday? Never heard of ANSWER?

Believe it or not communists weren't a figment of Joe McCarthy's imagination.

These guys?

http://www.answerla.org/

What do they have to do with Unions?

Terry in Crapchester · Wed May 03, 2006 6:28 pm

BSmack wrote:
mvscal wrote:
PSUFAN wrote:Do tell, professor. Please explain to us where we are beset by the Evils of Communism.
What? You didn't see any pictures of those marches on Monday? Never heard of ANSWER?

Believe it or not communists weren't a figment of Joe McCarthy's imagination.
These guys?

http://www.answerla.org/

What do they have to do with Unions?

mvscal disagrees with them, that's what they have to do with unions and communism.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Wed May 03, 2006 6:48 pm

mvscal wrote:
BSmack wrote:What do they have to do with Unions?
Besides most everything?

Union goons are a fixture at their events and provide more than a little material support to them.

Members of TWU Local 100 (NYC)
at September 24 anti-war
demonstration in Washington DC.
(Photo by Mark Piotrowski. From MRzine.)

http://www.internationalanswer.org/

Leftist causes tend to attract a cross section of "the movement". That doesn't mean that union members marching at an anti-war raly are by definition Communists.

Y2K · Post by **Y2K** » Wed May 03, 2006 8:42 pm

The UFW
United Farmworkers UNION rallys have long been organized and financed by supporters of Communisim. The Immigration Rallys here in Cali over the last month were predominately staged by these groups statewide. The decendents of Mexican Labor Hero Ceasar Chavez are well connected with Communists both in the USA and Mexico and have turned over most of the Public Relations to them so they can live as millionares off the (again purposely kept ignorant and misinformed) members dues. My wifes grandfather was a Teamster for 35 years and just recently told me why he couldn't attend meetings because it made him so disgusted and sickened that it mentally changed the way he looked at a job he really loved to do. (Wonder Bread aka. Continental Bakeries.) Members were routinely told to shut the fuck up and just pay what they were asked and not allowed to question the authority of Union Leadership, Ray explained how his money often dissappeared for the good of the brotherhood as the Union Heads dabbled in various self serving ventures. There was no Democracy but pure Communist Philosophy conjoined with graft and corruption (just like the good ole USSR)
The only solace was a decent wage and retirement package that you couldn't vote against. It isn't any damned "Red Scare" paranoia just fucking FACTS laid out right in front of your face.
We have people in BOTH political parties that have allowed shit like this to go on purposely unnoticed for way to long to collect favors and contributions from people who don't give a fuck about anything other than self serving Shit with visions of God like power over fellow Americans who OWE them some sort of Uberrespect because they are rich, influential, powerful or any combination of the 3. This is just a fraction of the stories he told me.
Yes PSU, there's MANY a Communist Principle being played by Unions out there and they are gaining momentum quicky based on reality isn't accepted because it's not Politically Correct to call some fucker a goddamn POS Traitor because they're using some touchy feely cause to shield their gameplan. See the Immigration Rallys of late for what they actually are and Wake up.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Wed May 03, 2006 8:57 pm

mvscal wrote:
BSmack wrote:Leftist causes tend to attract a cross section of "the movement".
No shit, moron. Why then are you so shocked and surprised to find communists and unions working together?

They're not exactly "working together". You keep mistaking proximity of space for a monolithic conspiracy. Art Bell would be proud.

Y2K · Post by **Y2K** » Wed May 03, 2006 9:12 pm

I jumped in the truck to run down to Lowes to buy some lumber. The station was still on local 580 AM because I was listening to a Fresno State game last night only to immediately hear some Mensa explain to RushinonOxy Limbaugh that it's great that Exxon/mobile made so much money because look at the tax revenue the IRS will collect on the Billion Dollar Profits...........

Jesus people are fucking stupid.....

Sometimes Darwin misses the right target....