T1B

I thought the same thing too, Mgo, when I read his shit take.

See ucant, that's what I was "parroting". jon always has a take. More oft than not, though, it sucks.

I was mentioning Brady's playoff stats simply to show that they're nothing spectacular like everyone claims. It had nothing to do with my Brady vs Manning argument. Just posted them to show that his playoff performances aren't as spectacular as you guys are lead on to believe. That is all.

TheJON wrote:It had nothing to do with my Brady vs Manning argument.

Good story.

Now, find a way to stay on topic, or shut the fuck up.

TheJON wrote:But Henson was more talented than Brady. His problem was, unlike Brady, his focus was more towards a different sport and that hurt his growth as a QB. You can't tell me that when both were at UM, you were wanting Brady in at QB over Henson?? I always thought Henson should have played football. I thought he was different than others who should choose baseball (for financial reasons). He had the talent for the NFL, but you can't take 3-4 years off to go play a different sport and then expect to come back and make it at quarterback in the NFL. If Joe Mauer decided to quit playing baseball and go play QB in the NFL, he'd never make it even though he was a top recruit a few years ago.

henson's problem was that he wasn't as good of a qb as brady. and yes, i thought that during the time. i'm almost glad umich lost to illinois brady's senior year b/c i won't spend the rest of my life thinking carr diddled away a shot at the national championship in the state game. (i'm convinced we most likely would've beaten msu that year had carr not been so intent on placating henson by letting him use second quarter to prove again that brady was the better qb.)

yr quip about henson being more talented than brady plays into the point i made about brady not looking the part. i'm not expert enough to break down arm mechanics and footwork, but i do know production when i see it, and brady was more productive than henson, just the same way he's been more productive than manning. there's something about being able to win. and if yr giong to use bradshaw to illuminate yr points about brady being a circus act, why not bring up montana and his weak arm? who'd you rather have, manning or montana?

^^^^^^^^^

I would rather have Drew Tate...

m club,

You do bring up a valid point about Montana. True, he did not have an excellent arm. It's really similar to Brady. But dude was accurate, and made a lot tougher throws than Brady. I'd say those 2 probably got the most out of their talent than anyone that's ever played that position. Montana was my favorite player growing up, so I admit to being slightly biased here. But when I watched Montana making his 4th quarter comebacks, I saw him actually make throws. Not dink-and-dunk shit like Brady does. And no one's put up playoff numbers like Montana did. His playoff success is unparralled, and I'm not just talking about his teams success, I'm talking about his too. He was unreal in the postseason. He was in the regular season too, but no one's ever performed like he has in the playoffs. Brady isn't even close. Watch a Patriots playoff game during Brady's career and a Niners (or even the Chiefs in 1993) playoff game with Montana at QB and you'll see the difference. While Brady did in a way impact his teams success in the playoffs, he wasn't even close to impacting the games like Montana did. Heck, go back through Brady's career and tell me exactly what throw he is famous for. Think long and hard.....that's right, there's really none. You all know the pass to Dwight Clark. Brady never had anything like that. Montana was kind of like David Eckstein. Neither had great talent, both overachieved, and both make/made plays in clutch situations. Tom Brady, on the other hand is an overachiever who DOESN'T SCREW UP in clutch situations. Most QB's can't handle the pressure like he does and would screw up, so credit Brady for that (which is why I rank him amongst the top 25 or so QB's of all-time), but he's rarely asked to actually make a play in a crucial situation. Dumping the ball off to an open man 5 yards down the field is NOT making a play.....it's called not screwing up. That's what Brady does. That's what he's always done. And you guys can try and dispute this all you want, but I'd like for just 1 of you to give me instances where Brady has been asked to make tough throws in clutch situations in the playoffs. Because there really are very few (Super Bowl with the Panthers he did make a couple and he made a great throw against San Diego a couple weeks ago). People on here are talking like he's been so spectacular in the playoffs and I've shot down that notion and the response is "you're a fucking idiot" instead of trying to dispute my statements. I do know why that's the response, because they don't have an answer because they CANNOT dispute what I've said and it pisses them off so they resort to those types of responses. Which is fine by me, just proves everything I've said and makes me realize that, to the dismay of this board, I am right yet again.

What throws did Montana make? Considering he was playing for the originator of the WCO, which is a ball control, short passing offense, I'm curious as to what throws you watched Montana make. You know, seeing as how you are the only one who has watched football and can form an opinion that wasn't spoon fed to him. The Dwight Clark was one throw on a broken play.

As far as Brady goes, his bomb for a TD against Pittsburg was a pretty big pass.

The fact is, once again, you are talking out of your ass.

So JON, you've got two minutes left in the Super Bowl. You're down a TD. Who do you send on the field? Manning or Brady?

Whoever you hand the ball to would HAVE to be based on whoever you think is better, right?

Now, I've heard this question asked to NFL players and coaches over, and over, and over again, and I know who they say roughly...100% of the time, without hesitation.

The answer is Tom Brady.

I'm curious to see if your "unique" opinions differ even from the true experts who play and coach against the guy on Sundays.

I'll hang up and listen.

Mgo,

That is a no brainer. Manning all the way. He has won an AFC championship. Manning would have an 82.675% chance of winning in that sitution. My noj-o-lator only gives Brady a 3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510% chance of pulling it out for God's sake.

Sin,
noj=dumb

I tell you what, Mgo.....let's wait until after next weekend to answer that. Peyton hasn't been in the Super Bowl, so let's see how he plays before anyone tries to answer that question. I will say this, if I know that going into the drive I'm going to need my QB to make a play instead of just not screwing up, it's gotta be Manning. Brady's not the type of QB that will make plays on his own, he's a system guy.

But let's wait until we see how Manning plays in a Super Bowl before anyone tries to answer who they'd rather have leading their team on a game winning drive in the Super Bowl. Now, regardless of the answer, Manning is still better. I hate to break it to you, but leading a team to a Super Bowl game winning drive is not the only part of being a quarterback in the NFL.

Here's my prediction for Manning next Sunday..... 24-39-275 2 td 1 int, Super Bowl victory and MVP. We'll see how close I am.

TheJON wrote:leading a team to a Super Bowl game winning drive is not the only part of being a quarterback in the NFL.

No, but doing it 3 times proves that it's more than luck or a system.

Answer me this JON, why the fuck do you think Brady dinked and dunked his way to the his first Super Bowl game winning drive? It had nothing to do with him not being able to make the throws. I'll see if you can come up with that one on your own.

Oh, and Peyton is a stadium/weather QB. He can't play in cold weather.

Bode Brady.

CAN'T play in cold weather??? Or HASN'T played well in cold weather consistently?? Perhaps you should learn the difference. Remember, a couple weeks ago he was the guy that CAN'T get to the Super Bowl according to everyone, and now he's in a Super Bowl. There's a difference between CAN'T and HASN'T.

Why did Brady dink and dunk? 2 reasons.....first off, that's there style of play. It's not a big play offense. Like I said, he plays well within his system. 2nd off.....because he can't. He doesn't have the accuracy on a tough throw. For a guy that throws so many short passes, he sure does have a lousy completion percentage. Why? Because if you ask him to throw downfield, it's like playing darts blindfolded. If he completes the pass, then chalk it up as BSFN.

And just off the top of my head I can think of 2 amazing performances Manning has had in the cold. 2003 in Kansas City, ripped the Chiefs defense a new asshole in a victory in the playoffs. How's about that game where Vanderjagt kicked a 54 yarder in the snow in Denver (was in the regular season), I think it was 2 years ago. I recall Manning throwing for about 350 yards or so although I couldn't tell you the exact stats. And how's about their win at New England earlier this season? Manning played well and I'm pretty sure it was a very cold game. That whole crap has been overplayed a lot, which is another thing I see you're just parroting. Really, the COLTS problem in the playoffs has been the 3-4 defense. Not the weather. The O-line has problems picking up a zone blitz. Just look at last year against Pittsburgh. Manning was running for his life. That game was in a dome. The problem is, Pittsburgh and New England disguise their defenses very well and the Colts O-line and RB's have had numerous problems recognizing it.

TheJON wrote:CAN'T play in cold weather??? Or HASN'T played well in cold weather consistently?? Perhaps you should learn the difference. Remember, a couple weeks ago he was the guy that CAN'T get to the Super Bowl according to everyone, and now he's in a Super Bowl. There's a difference between CAN'T and HASN'T.

Why did Brady dink and dunk? 2 reasons.....first off, that's there style of play. It's not a big play offense. Like I said, he plays well within his system. 2nd off.....because he can't. He doesn't have the accuracy on a tough throw. For a guy that throws so many short passes, he sure does have a lousy completion percentage. Why? Because if you ask him to throw downfield, it's like playing darts blindfolded. If he completes the pass, then chalk it up as BSFN.

Funny you say that about the darts blindfolded, seeing the ducks that Manning unleashes when he throws long. Again, you are talking out of your ass. You have no facts to back up your claim that Brady isn't accurate on long passes.

The reason he did it, was because, like a great QB, he took what the defense gave him. The Rams didn't want them to hit a big pass and get into FG range. Instead, Brady marched them down there using short passes to the sideline and when they were in the middle of the field, he could stop the clock. In the same type of defense, Manning would try to force the ball and get picked, or hold on to it too long and take a sack. I have no proof of this, I just figured if you were going to start throwing out stupid shit, I mind as well sink to your level.

And Manning can't, because he never has. Everytime he has and it meant something, he looked like he should be playing caddy to Joey Harrington. Meanwhile, Brady played pretty well in all conditions. Weird. Probably because he is a better all around QB.

Nov 5.

Yeah, the frozen tundra of Boston in early Autumn is a grueling environment to play in.

If you quit hitting Submit, you won't sound as dumb.

Seriously, I can't wait for the COlts to win and noj running backin here saying how great Manning is. Let me head this off before that happens...

Win or lose, Manning IS a great QB. We are arguing Manning vs. Brady here, and I doubt anyone's mind will change about it after next Sunday, whether Manning wins or loses.

Yeah, I seem to remember the 2004 AFC Championship game. Manning was stellar. I think Ty Law was the leading receiver.

Well, last week Brady had a chance to prove me wrong, but he didn't. Last drive of the game, Brady has to make a play.....can't do it....ball picked off. Or on the 3rd and short where they could have clinched it and Bob Sanders made a great play..... Where was Mr. Playmaker there? Better throw with more zip perhaps would have gotten by Sanders reach.

Watch a tape of last weeks game. Watch what the 2 QB's did. Both teams scored points. Both teams moved the ball. But when the game was on the line it came down to which QB could make plays. And I'm not talking those bullshit dump-off passes he threw against the Rams.....I'm talking that deep out to Bradley Fletcher or stepping up in the pocket after being pressured and getting it downfield to Dallas Clark in a HUGE play. Brady played okay in the game too, so I'm not trying to say he played a bad game. But what you saw in that game is EXACTLY why I want Manning on my team. Because if it comes down to a situation where the QB absolutely has to make plays, Brady is not your guy. Peyton is. Brady is valuable when put in a situation and a system like New England. Give a supporting cast that is clutch and he'll thrive in it. But put him in a position where he really has to step up and take over the game.......he's fucked. But Peyton has the ability to make incredible plays because of his arm and football IQ.

You're right Frisco, but I am pretty certain that it was freezing temperatures. Freezing temperatures are freezing temperatures regardless of the time of year. And even if you don't wanna count that........what's your take on his 2003 playoff performance in KC (where it was fucking cold) or his regular season performance in 2004 I believe in that blizzard in Denver (one of the best regular season games I've seen)?? Killian was saying he CAN'T play in shitty weather. Well, I just listed 2 straight off the top of my head that shoot down that notion.

And as for me coming in talking smack if the Colts win and Manning plays well.......Again, proof of how wrong you guys are. If the Colts win, I'll be pissed. I'm a fucking Bears fan. I hope Manning throws 7 picks and the Bears win by 50. So why in the fuck would I run smack if the Colts win??? Besides, I don't ever come in running smack at anyone after my team/prediction comes through (unless it's an ISU fan after Iowa beats them of course or Cardinals fan). You guys just make that shit up.

Why did the Colts run it on third and goal when they had the best QB in the history of the universe behind center? Maybe it's because of his propensity to have the ball get stuck in his vagina before he throws when it matters.

I like all those times he clutched up in the 2004 AFC championship game, in cold weather. Awesome all around player. Not a product of his home field at all.

It's weird that the year after he leaves Tennessee, they win the MNC. He must have had some hand in that, too.

Are you kidding me? They had to run it there. It doesn't matter who your QB is. It's a safe play and one that there was no way New England would stop. Why risk throwing it in that situation? Hand the ball of, it's an easy TD. I recall earlier in the game when they were in a similar situation and Manning threw a pass in the end zone and Wayne tripped over his own feet. So why would you put the ball in the air knowing that your team's had a few dropped balls in the game and after seeing what Reche Caldwell did for New England when you can just hand it off and easily get a TD?? Yeah, I'm sure Dungy was just worried that his All-World QB couldn't make the throw considering the type of game he was having!!

And yes, good points about Tennessee. Tee Martin was clearly the better QB. In fact, I think the Colts should bench Manning and go sign Tee Martin away from his Wal-Mart cashier job to play in the Super Bowl so they'll have a good QB under center.

TheJON wrote:And yes, good points about Tennessee. Tee Martin was clearly the better QB. In fact, I think the Colts should bench Manning and go sign Tee Martin away from his Wal-Mart cashier job to play in the Super Bowl so they'll have a good QB under center.

Why didn't he win the NC, but they did the year after?

New England throws in that situation, but they suck. Those 3 super bowls were a fluke, and so is their QB.

TheJON wrote:Besides, I don't ever come in running smack at anyone after my team/prediction comes through (unless it's an ISU fan after Iowa beats them of course or Cardinals fan). You guys just make that shit up.

You said right above how you won't make the call on Brady vs. Manning until AFTER the SB.

TheJON wrote:I tell you what, Mgo.....let's wait

Wait? But why? I thought you decided looooooong ago who the better qb was? So why would you need to wait and see what Peyton does in the Super Bowl?

The question is simple: Who would you rather have quarterbacking your team in the Super Bowl on the last possession of the game? If you're so convinced Manning is the better qb, doesn't it make sense to give the ball to the better qb? Afterall, he can make the "tougher" throws, right? Seems like that's a characteristic you'd go for when selecting a qb to engineer a 2 minute do-or-die drive.

TheJON wrote:Manning was running for his life.

Which, if he possessed even an ounce of athleticism, would really go a long way in helping him out in that department.

Again, a big reason Manning makes so many of these "tough throws," which indeed they are, is because he often puts himself in positions to make "tough throws." He's got the football IQ, but he certainly doesn't have the feel for the game, and the instincts that Brady has. He's completely formulaic. If a plastic bag broke through the line and headed Manning's way, he'd run back about five yards and toss a wobbler in the air off his back foot for about 35 yards to a well covered receiver. Sure, there's a good chance he'd get it there, and in the end, all that really matters is that you make the throw, so I won't really discredit Manning for finding a way to get the job done, but the more you harp on these "tough throws" the more I'm convinced you haven't seen the guy play all that much.

Because if it comes down to a situation where the QB absolutely has to make plays, Brady is not your guy. Peyton is.

Oh yeah? When was the last time Tom Brady threw 4 ints in a playoff game?

Oh wait...I'm sure none of it was Peyton's fault.

Shoalzie wrote:. . .annoying . . . m2 with his constant references of . . . Joe Montana was his idol growing up.

Not to be annoying, but . . .

I'm quite sure I was a Joe Montana fan before m2 was. Quite sure of that.

Killian wrote:Why did the Colts run it on third and goal when they had the best QB in the history of the universe behind center? Maybe it's because of his propensity to have the ball get stuck in his vagina before he throws when it matters.

you mentioned this point earlier, and i think it's quite asinine. the colts found themselves with 1st and goal with what, 1:30 left? obviously clock control becomes an issue, especially when the other qb has a history of game-winning drives. i'm sure dungy - he who shed his the defensive reputation he built with tb to throw his entire lot with a manning-led offense - trusted some rookie rb so much more in that situation that his future hof qb that he had to run the ball. i wouldn't think manning's abilities played into the 3rd down play either, that the pats were expecting run, right?

Killian,

When did I ever say Brady was a fluke or the Patriots suck? Patriots are talented and well coached and have been for the better part of 5-6 years. I actually think Brady is a damn good QB. I'd sure as hell take him on my team. It's just that I think he gets overhyped, that's all. I think Manning is #1 and then Carson Palmer and Tom Brady are #2a and #2b. I think Eli has the POTENTIAL to be up there, but until he gets rid of his happy feet under pressure and his inconsistency he'll just be an average QB like Rex Grossman.

And your obsession with the Colts running the ball in that situation is ridiculous. I just explained to you why they did. It had nothing to do with Manning. It had everything to do with it being a safer play. Sure, the Patriots most likely would have thrown the ball in that situation because that's their style. If Manning, Grossman, Brady, me, you, or Mgo were the QB they'd do the same thing. That's how they play. That's fine too. I'm not about to argue with a Patriots coach and their style because what they've been doing has worked better for them than any other team in the NFL this century. But Tom Moore ran that ball because he was confident they'd score and because there was no need to risk throwing it and having a dropped pass or a WR trip over the blue paint again. Regardless of who your QB is, why bother throwing a short pass when you know you can just run it for the TD? Patriots D was tired, there was no way they'd stop that and they were probably expecting a pass. So what would be the point of attempting a pass? Now, I am not saying throwing the ball would have been a bad playcall either, but I probably would have ran the ball myself if I were the OC.

And do you really want an answer for that Tennessee question? Why did they win after Peyton left? Does it matter? Peyton = All-Pro. Tee Martin = ?????? Winning a college national title proves nothing. There isn't even a playoff system. And teams can improve drastically from 1 year to the next more than they can in the NFL. Why did USC win a national title the year after Carson Palmer graduated? Must be because Palmer sucks, right?? I suppose Craig Krenzel is a better QB than Manning too, right??

M Club wrote:

Killian wrote:Why did the Colts run it on third and goal when they had the best QB in the history of the universe behind center? Maybe it's because of his propensity to have the ball get stuck in his vagina before he throws when it matters.

you mentioned this point earlier, and i think it's quite asinine. the colts found themselves with 1st and goal with what, 1:30 left? obviously clock control becomes an issue, especially when the other qb has a history of game-winning drives. i'm sure dungy - he who shed his the defensive reputation he built with tb to throw his entire lot with a manning-led offense - trusted some rookie rb so much more in that situation that his future hof qb that he had to run the ball. i wouldn't think manning's abilities played into the 3rd down play either, that the pats were expecting run, right?

Oh it was quite asinine, mclub. The fact that JON couldn't logically argue why it was asinine had me laughing. I'm easily entertained.

I couldn't answer it logically? Are you fucking retarded??? My god, wow.....!!

TheJON wrote:Heck, go back through Brady's career and tell me exactly what throw he is famous for. Think long and hard.....that's right, there's really none.

i don't know about throws, but i do know that brady's won three super bowls, all won by three points, which suggests his teams weren't so dominate that the patriots could just hide their qb and hope he didn't fuck up. i also know he wrestled his job away that first year from a qb most considered much better. and honestly, i don't care how big manning's arm is just as long as i know brady is 325 - 2 in the playoffs. he's won more super bowls than he's lost playoff games. eventually you have to figure out there's a lot more to a qb than just the velocity he puts on the ball. i forget the stat i saw from the indy game, but i think it mentioned brady has 24 game-winning drives to his credit in the past ? years. it's similar to basketball when some midge circus act is dismissed as a novelty that'll burn out, someone like earl boykins. ha ha, how cute, the 5'4" dood just dropped 40 on a mac team; he'll never make it in the nba. what is this, his 9th year?

if yr going to argue who's the better qb, you should prolly focus on the plays that are made rather than how they're made, and after that you'd probably understand why it took arguably manning's worst post-season for the colts to finally get to the super bowl.

TheJON wrote: If Manning, Grossman, Brady, me, you, or Mgo were the QB they'd do the same thing.

if i was the qb they'd have called a run/pass option, emphasis on run.

Oh you may have been able to, but you failed to do so before someone else brought up why the point being made was silly to begin with.

I'm sure you were busy looking at the tone of your voice.

Killian wrote:Oh it was quite asinine, mclub. The fact that JON couldn't logically argue why it was asinine had me laughing. I'm easily entertained.

all this shit about manning reminds me of our brief manning to harrison romp on the playground. in the shadow of brady's old home, no less.

M Club,

Manning did have an overall average postseason. The TD-INT ratio is bad but the rest is pretty good. He did make 3 bad throws against KC (although I'd argue Marvin Harrison's lack of effort was to blame for 1 of them), but still.....30-38 passing ain't too shabby. And he had one of the best 32 minutes of football a QB has ever had in conference championship history. Against Baltimore, not a real good game but that is a great defense. He did make a couple of nice clutch throws (including 1 huge 3rd down pass that no way in fucking hell does Brady complete).

But my question to this board (and to anyone really) is why does Brady get all the credit? If Brady is the best QB because he has 3 rings, why isn't Ty Law considered the best CB in the league or why isn't Richard Seymour the best DE in the NFL? Everyone says defense wins championships, but the QB gets all the credit?? How on earth does that make any sense?? I think QB's in general are overhyped and people claim 1 is better than the other simply because 1 has more rings than the other. It's the ultimate team game. Doesn't matter how the QB plays if the rest of the team is stinking up the joint. The notion of "the QB has the ball in his hand every play" is more asinine than Killian's arguing that Manning blows because they ran the ball on 3rd down. Most teams RUN the ball half the time, and even though the QB does take the snap, half the time it's just to hand the ball off and then sit and watch the RB do his thing. Even Ryan Leaf had the ability to accomplish that task.

I concur with MGO, Killian, and MClub...why Jon consistently argues mechanics, velocity, etc...I mean Elway wasn't the most technically sound passer and what were his stats...what did he do...

Brady is a fucking stud (Barf) did I just say that...and even this OSU guy can give dude mad props for what he has done...and by the way against the Panthers - carolina pulled ahead with what 2 minutes left on the clock...Vinateri kicked the winning FG with what 8 seconds left...so Brady got them down the field, used clock and put his team in a position to win the fucking game...

I remember in super bowls past when peyton led...oh fuck never mind...Jon no one here has said Peyton is dogshit or what not...but your insisting that somehow Brady is dogshit is laughable...

I said I would choose Brady to start my team tomorrow and that is my opinion but that still doesn't mean I think manning isn't a GREAT QB but you saying you would take Marino and or Manning ahead of what 6-8 others who have done more and are as good is just fucking stupid...

buckeye,

Brady got them downfield or Brady HELPED get them downfield? Because I simply do not recall Brady taking a snap and then running 50 yards. You'll at the very least (unlike Killian and Mgo) acknowledge the fact that there actually were other players on the field for New England during those drives, won't you???

M Club wrote:

Killian wrote:Oh it was quite asinine, mclub. The fact that JON couldn't logically argue why it was asinine had me laughing. I'm easily entertained.

all this shit about manning reminds me of our brief manning to harrison romp on the playground. in the shadow of brady's old home, no less.

Irony, no? My ribs are still sore.

yes Jon I will but let me ask you this...

2006 Ohio State Buckeyes...Troy Smith gets all the pub because HE LEAD the team, HE MADE some great plays, HE PUT THE TEAM on his back a lot of times and made plays...how is this different?

Brady did the same team...BRADY LEAD the Pats down the field, BRADY was an integral part of executing the play called, BRADY had the ball put in his hands to go out and put the Pats in a position to win the game...

it ain't like we sat here after that game and said because the center didn't flub a snap the drive worked...no you always remember the QB and what he DID on those drives...

TheJON wrote:buckeye,

Brady got them downfield or Brady HELPED get them downfield? Because I simply do not recall Brady taking a snap and then running 50 yards. You'll at the very least (unlike Killian and Mgo) acknowledge the fact that there actually were other players on the field for New England during those drives, won't you???

You are the biggest fucking idiot I have ever come across, virtually or in real life. No where did I say that "Manning blows" nor did I ever imply that Brady did it all on his own. What I did state, that Brady won 3 Super Bowls with no where near the offensive talent that Manning has had surrounding him for most of his career. If the Pat's Super Bowls were a result of their defense, fine. But why hasn't Manning won a Super Bowl? After all, he is a QB that is the best in the league and can make every throw. If he can make every throw, why hasn't he put his team in position more often to make the Super Bowl? I also don't ever remember Brady leading his team to a 40+ point drubbing in the playoffs with his team failing to score a TD. Then again, I could be wrong. You have the only TV in America that tunes into the games.