Obamatross

[Tom In VA]

I accepted Clinton, begrudgingly, but the American electorate had rendered their greater judgement.

nice touch Patriot Wagon.....

we're talking about a collective that elected (twice no less) the fucking disaster we now have occupying the White House so I probably have less confidence in the American voting publics ability to render a sound judgment than do you.....

Aaah, a return to the peaceful days when the only people that were killed by terrorists were sleeping seamen, embassy workers, and other government workers. And the only war waged against fringe fundamentalists were ones that lived in Texas and Idaho. Felix, I feel your pain.

We have less than a year to impeach Bush. I say we move to Brattleboro. We'll pretend you're a sick child and try and lure Bush there as your "Make a Wish" wish.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

...the only people that were killed by terrorists were...government workers.

You'll have to explain to me the downside on that one.

[Felix]

Aaah, a return to the peaceful days when the only people that were killed by terrorists were sleeping seamen, embassy workers, and other government workers.

condescending isn't your style...

[Goober McTuber]

Islamic Fundies are all for the death penalty, against homosexuality, abhore abortion, and aren't too keen on their wimmenz being liberated.

So that was the reason for 9/11?

You decide. Do some research on Sayyid Qutb and Sharia Law.

Everything I’ve ever read pointed to bin Laden’s motives for 9/11 being US presence in his holy land. I have no doubt that radical muslims abhor western culture. But if you’re suggesting that that was the reason behind 9/11 (rather than their opposition to US foreign policy), and that this somehow is the fault of the Democrats, well, you’re just as wacky as ever.

The motives of al-Qaeda have also been extensively analyzed by other parties, including politicians, academics, and media commentators. In a 2001 speech, U.S. President George W. Bush explained the general motivations of the perpetrators as "They hate ... a democratically elected government. ... They hate our freedoms -- our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other." However, this view has been criticized by experts such as Former CIA Bin Laden Unit Chief Michael Scheuer, who explain that "politicians really are at great fault for not squaring with the American people. We're being attacked for what we do in the Islamic world, not for who we are or what we believe in or how we live."

Way to swallow Bush’s load, Tom.

[War Wagon]

we're talking about a collective that elected (twice no less) the fucking disaster we now have occupying the White House so I probably have less confidence in the American voting publics ability to render a sound judgment than do you.....

Are you still pining for either one of the colossal fuck-ups who lost those elections?

Get over it.

[Tom In VA]

But if you’re suggesting that that was the reason behind 9/11 (rather than their opposition to US foreign policy), and that this somehow is the fault of the Democrats, well, you’re just as wacky as ever.

I am, correctly, suggesting that our culture as a whole is part of the reason for the Islamic Fundie movement, which provides the fuel and inspiration for all the terrorist attacks - including 9-11. I picked a few bits of our culture dealing with issues the Dems hold dear and pointed them out. Islamic Fundies ain't too keen on a vast majority of Republican pet issues either. I honestly do not intend to imply that somehow the Dems are to blame. My point in outlining the items I did was that Dems should be concerned and as vigilant as they are against the Christian Fundies, in order to preserve freedoms they hold dear. To provide a more complete understanding of aspects of our culture and potentially a more honest breakdown - would include several RNC issues that also drive Islamic Fundies mad. Not the least of which would be their alliance with the Christian Religious Right.

I apologize for any confusion.

[Felix]

Are you still pining for either one of the colossal fuck-ups who lost those elections?

look weeble wagon, you've never seen me write that Bush stole the election or that Bush should be impeached so that simply doesn't play....

no, you've stood patriotically steadfast as I've watched Bush and Co. essentially trash the Constitution of the United States, promote torture, spy on Americans, etc. all in the name of "freedom"....

no, I don't blame George Bush and cronies for raping the American public....I lay that blame squarely on the shoulders of the misguided louts like you for allowing it happen.....

[Goober McTuber]

Everything I’ve ever read pointed to bin Laden’s motives for 9/11 being US presence in his holy land.

His holy land? Pardon me for noticing that he isn't in fucking charge.

I was simply referring to the area that his religion regards as holy land. Not suggesting that he was in charge. Do you really believe that 9/11 was triggered by the muslim perception that we are tolerant of homosexuals? If that were the case, they would have been crashing jets into the Castro District and m2 would never have had the chance to earn his board bitch titles.

[Tom In VA]

Everything I’ve ever read pointed to bin Laden’s motives for 9/11 being US presence in his holy land.

His holy land? Pardon me for noticing that he isn't in fucking charge.

I was simply referring to the area that his religion regards as holy land. Not suggesting that he was in charge. Do you really believe that 9/11 was triggered by the muslim perception that we are tolerant of homosexuals? If that were the case, they would have been crashing jets into the Castro District and m2 would never have had the chance to earn his board bitch titles.

Funny stuff. You keep harping on 9-11 as if it was an isolated incident. 9-11 was an escalation in the war waged by Islamic Fundamentalists. Islamic Fundamentalists, out of power, want power. They want power to impose Sharia Law to all those who would subject themselves to it. They want to convert, or kill -- there is no in between -- those who do not subject to Sharia Law. In fact, they actually believe it is their duty, under Sharia Law, to do so.

Any presence, military or otherwise, of non-believers on "their" soil is cause for action. Any commercial or cultural influence -- on their soil -- is cause for action.

Like I said, I do not intend to imply that the ONLY reason for the campaign waged by Islamic Fundamentalists is our tolerance for homos, womens liberation, our music, our viewing choices, our "freedoms" as it were -- but they are factors. They are factors because they are not in compliance with Sharia.

[BSmack]

Everything I’ve ever read pointed to bin Laden’s motives for 9/11 being US presence in his holy land.

His holy land? Pardon me for noticing that he isn't in fucking charge.

I was simply referring to the area that his religion regards as holy land. Not suggesting that he was in charge.

Of course you were referring to "his" holy land in the same way Packer Fan refers to Lambeau Field as "his" football Mecca. Any intelligent person could see that. Which means that mvscal was either being stupid or deliberately conflating your words.

So which is it mv?

[War Wagon]

I've watched Bush and Co. essentially trash the Constitution of the United States, promote torture, spy on Americans, etc. all in the name of "freedom"....

no, I don't blame George Bush and cronies for raping the American public....

Sheesh.

Well I guess you'd better look outside and check for the black helicopters that most certainly must soon be appearing on your horizon. Or are they already there?

Meanwhile, study these latest poll numbers

I can already hear the weeping and gnashing of teeth coming from the liberals as they contemplate another 4-8 years of a Republican administration.

[Felix]

Shall we simply ask terrorists "pretty please" would you divulge information about your plans, assets and contacts and then sheepishly take "Go fuck yourself" for an answer? If not, what do you suggest?

ah the old "the ends justify the means" logic....then why stop at waterboarding...if we're going to torture these people why not start employing Iron Maidens, thumbscrew, or start pulling out fingernails....

after all, the end justifies the means.....

[Cuda]

Everything I’ve ever read pointed to bin Laden’s motives for 9/11 being US presence in his holy land.

His holy land? Pardon me for noticing that he isn't in fucking charge...

Ah, but he wants to be in charge- and that's all it really comes down to.

[Felix]

Because it works.

really....maybe you could cite me all the instances wherein information obtained from the employment of waterboarding has resulted in vital information being obtained which prevented the loss of lives.....because of course, everyone knows how reliable the information obtained via torture is.....

but I'm glad your willing to admit that waterboarding is in fact torture....

You still haven't answered any of the questions. That's OK. I really don't expect a sniveling pussy like you to make the attempt. All you do is blow smoke.

how has my life changed....hasn't really...but of course Bush trashing the consitution is merely in it's infancy....thank God we have term limits otherwise theres no telling how far they might be willing to take it in the name of freedom.....

insofar as Americans who've been spied on? I have no idea...but then again, neither do you....

apparently they don't answer to anybody so who the fuck knows.....

[BSmack]

then why stop at waterboarding...

Because it works.

Only to a certain extent. Waterboarding only succeeds in getting the prisoner to say what he thinks his captors want to hear. Just because you break a man doesn't mean he's going to be honest with you.

[Tom In VA]

then why stop at waterboarding...

Because it works.

Only to a certain extent. Waterboarding only succeeds in getting the prisoner to say what he thinks his captors want to hear. Just because you break a man doesn't mean he's going to be honest with you.

This is true and why many believe torture to be not only inhumane, but ineffective.

[War Wagon]

how has my life changed....hasn't really...but of course Bush trashing the consitution is merely in it's infancy....thank God we have term limits otherwise theres no telling how far they might be willing to take it in the name of freedom.....

Are you familiar with the phrase "tilting at windmills"? If not, you should be.

My god, I'll be glad when Bush is out of office just so I don't have to listen or read the feeble wimpering about him anymore. Of course, whiny bitches like you will find something else to complain about.

[Tom In VA]

listen or read the feeble wimpering about him anymore.

Won't happen. You wil continue to hear it.

[BSmack]

Waterboarding only succeeds in getting the prisoner to say what he thinks his captors want to hear.

Nonsense. Experienced interrogators know the difference between somebody who is saying what he thinks his captors want to hear and somebody who has real beans to spill.

The fact is, waterboarding is used only in very rare circumstances. Sleep dep and stress positions are more than enough to break the overwhelming majority of suspects. I've seen it first hand. If you do know something, you will talk.

So we should feel better knowing that "lower" forms of torture are usually good enough? Of course you never did answer the question "Good enough for what?" I guess we just have to rely in the infallible "experienced interrogators" to parse through all the bullshit?



L-R "experienced interrogator"- broken prisoners

[Felix]

The fact is, waterboarding is used only in very rare circumstances. Sleep dep and stress positions are more than enough to break the overwhelming majority of suspects. I've seen it first hand. If you do know something, you will talk.

if these other techniques work so effectively, then why employ waterboarding at all....

btw, you never answered my question about the instances wherein waterboarding resulted in credible intel.....of course you can't answer it because you're not privy to that information so I guess you're willing to accept the governments word that it's working....

[Felix]

You don't have to be privy to that information. All you need is the modest intellectual ability to read between the lines. There are hundreds if not thousands of stories of successful raids all over the world based on the interrogation of captured terrorists.

it seems that at times Al Queda is the most intelligent group of terrorists ever assembled, yet they constantly divulge vital information about their plans of destruction to virtually everyone, even the lowest tier members....

pretty odd....

I'm assuming those "hundreds if not thousands of stories" were provided by the same people that supplied the intel about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction......

thanks but no thanks....

[Goober McTuber]

Funny stuff. You keep harping on 9-11 as if it was an isolated incident. 9-11 was an escalation in the war waged by Islamic Fundamentalists. Islamic Fundamentalists, out of power, want power. They want power to impose Sharia Law to all those who would subject themselves to it. They want to convert, or kill -- there is no in between -- those who do not subject to Sharia Law. In fact, they actually believe it is their duty, under Sharia Law, to do so.

Any presence, military or otherwise, of non-believers on "their" soil is cause for action. Any commercial or cultural influence -- on their soil -- is cause for action.

Like I said, I do not intend to imply that the ONLY reason for the campaign waged by Islamic Fundamentalists is our tolerance for homos, womens liberation, our music, our viewing choices, our "freedoms" as it were -- but they are factors. They are factors because they are not in compliance with Sharia.

The September 11 attacks were consistent with the overall mission statement of al-Qaeda, as set out in a 1998 fatwā issued by Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Ahmed Refai Taha, Mir Hamzah, and Fazlur Rahman. In the fatwa, Bin Laden directed his followers "to kill Americans anywhere". He also outlined his objections to American foreign policy towards Israel, as well as U.S. aggression against the Iraqi people, the ensuing sanctions against Iraq, as well as the continued presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia after the Persian Gulf War. The fatwa also specifically condemns the U.S. for "plundering" the resources of the region, oppressing the people by supporting abusive regimes in the region, and dictating policy to legitimate leaders. It also opposes the presence of U.S. military bases and installations in the region, especially on Muslim holy land, which are used to "threaten" Muslim countries, while fomenting disunity and strife. By a similar token, it decries the continued refusal to address the occupation of Palestine. The fatwa uses Islamic texts to exhort violent action against American military and citizenry until the alleged grievances are reversed, stating "ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries."

They may despise us for our western ways, but it sounds to me like the fatwa was based totally on foreign policy issues, and our activities in the Middle East.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Waterboarding only succeeds in getting the prisoner to say what he thinks his captors want to hear.

Nonsense. Experienced interrogators know the difference between somebody who is saying what he thinks his captors want to hear and somebody who has real beans to spill.

The fact is, waterboarding is used only in very rare circumstances. Sleep dep and stress positions are more than enough to break the overwhelming majority of suspects. I've seen it first hand. If you do know something, you will talk.

I have absolutely no objections to your country morphing into the Soviet Union.
A million years of my comrades agitation and propaganda could never yield the results that you folks have pulled out during the last 5 administrations.

Welcome aboard, tovarich.
You have no idea how much I love this.

[Felix]

What the fuck do you care about these assholes anyway?

I don't...I want them just as dead as you do trust me....

what I don't want is for the United States to become the kind of place that condones torture or accepts spying on it's citizens....

as much as you love this country (which I know you do) why you're willing to accept it is simply beyond me.....

[Tom In VA]

Funny stuff. You keep harping on 9-11 as if it was an isolated incident. 9-11 was an escalation in the war waged by Islamic Fundamentalists. Islamic Fundamentalists, out of power, want power. They want power to impose Sharia Law to all those who would subject themselves to it. They want to convert, or kill -- there is no in between -- those who do not subject to Sharia Law. In fact, they actually believe it is their duty, under Sharia Law, to do so.

Any presence, military or otherwise, of non-believers on "their" soil is cause for action. Any commercial or cultural influence -- on their soil -- is cause for action.

Like I said, I do not intend to imply that the ONLY reason for the campaign waged by Islamic Fundamentalists is our tolerance for homos, womens liberation, our music, our viewing choices, our "freedoms" as it were -- but they are factors. They are factors because they are not in compliance with Sharia.

The September 11 attacks were consistent with the overall mission statement of al-Qaeda, as set out in a 1998 fatwā issued by Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Ahmed Refai Taha, Mir Hamzah, and Fazlur Rahman. In the fatwa, Bin Laden directed his followers "to kill Americans anywhere". He also outlined his objections to American foreign policy towards Israel, as well as U.S. aggression against the Iraqi people, the ensuing sanctions against Iraq, as well as the continued presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia after the Persian Gulf War. The fatwa also specifically condemns the U.S. for "plundering" the resources of the region, oppressing the people by supporting abusive regimes in the region, and dictating policy to legitimate leaders. It also opposes the presence of U.S. military bases and installations in the region, especially on Muslim holy land, which are used to "threaten" Muslim countries, while fomenting disunity and strife. By a similar token, it decries the continued refusal to address the occupation of Palestine. The fatwa uses Islamic texts to exhort violent action against American military and citizenry until the alleged grievances are reversed, stating "ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries."

They may despise us for our western ways, but it sounds to me like the fatwa was based totally on foreign policy issues, and our activities in the Middle East.

Factual post, no argument on my end and I read the same material. Sayyid provided the seed and nurturing of anti-western sentiment, Osama and crew have built on it.

Good discussion Goobs.

[Goober McTuber]

if we're going to torture these people why not start employing Iron Maiden

Good God, what’s next? Mötley Crüe? Metallica? Will they stop at nothing?

[Goober McTuber]

Funny stuff. You keep harping on 9-11 as if it was an isolated incident. 9-11 was an escalation in the war waged by Islamic Fundamentalists. Islamic Fundamentalists, out of power, want power. They want power to impose Sharia Law to all those who would subject themselves to it. They want to convert, or kill -- there is no in between -- those who do not subject to Sharia Law. In fact, they actually believe it is their duty, under Sharia Law, to do so.

Any presence, military or otherwise, of non-believers on "their" soil is cause for action. Any commercial or cultural influence -- on their soil -- is cause for action.

Like I said, I do not intend to imply that the ONLY reason for the campaign waged by Islamic Fundamentalists is our tolerance for homos, womens liberation, our music, our viewing choices, our "freedoms" as it were -- but they are factors. They are factors because they are not in compliance with Sharia.

The September 11 attacks were consistent with the overall mission statement of al-Qaeda, as set out in a 1998 fatwā issued by Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Ahmed Refai Taha, Mir Hamzah, and Fazlur Rahman. In the fatwa, Bin Laden directed his followers "to kill Americans anywhere". He also outlined his objections to American foreign policy towards Israel, as well as U.S. aggression against the Iraqi people, the ensuing sanctions against Iraq, as well as the continued presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia after the Persian Gulf War. The fatwa also specifically condemns the U.S. for "plundering" the resources of the region, oppressing the people by supporting abusive regimes in the region, and dictating policy to legitimate leaders. It also opposes the presence of U.S. military bases and installations in the region, especially on Muslim holy land, which are used to "threaten" Muslim countries, while fomenting disunity and strife. By a similar token, it decries the continued refusal to address the occupation of Palestine. The fatwa uses Islamic texts to exhort violent action against American military and citizenry until the alleged grievances are reversed, stating "ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries."

They may despise us for our western ways, but it sounds to me like the fatwa was based totally on foreign policy issues, and our activities in the Middle East.

Factual post, no argument on my end and I read the same material. Sayyid provided the seed and nurturing of anti-western sentiment, Osama and crew have built on it.

Good discussion Goobs.

Thanks, dumbfuck. :wink:

[Felix]

So you prefer pious hypocrisy instead?

I'm sure the Nazi's used a similar line while they evaporated the last remnants of those that objected to their "My Way or the Gas Chamber" form of tyranny......after all, it was for their own good.....

Why am I willing to accept it? For the value that I place on a American lives. If some goat raping dirt eater has information that could be used to save the life of an American or one of our allies, I'd cheerfully break every bone in his body to get it. I would kill his entire family right in front of him to get it. Whatever it takes.

uh okay Herr Goebbels

You don't have enough experience in reality to make an informed judgement. Getting blown the fuck up isn't an intellectual abstraction to anyone who has ever seen it before. This isn't a fucking game we're playing over there and having the so-called moral high ground means dick.

why do you act like you know me or my experiences....

I don't advocate or believe in mindless savagery, but focused, controlled brutality for specific and carefully defined objectives has a role to play in war. It always has and always will. I suggest you accustom yourself to that fact of life.

The fact that you merely accept this kind of thuggish behavior from our "leaders" speaks volumes about you bud.....from this point on, instead of going into a lengthy diatribe trying to justify what used to be considered criminal acts, just use the phrase "the end justifies the means" and I'll get your drift....

[BSmack]

She wasn't even an MP let alone an experienced interrogator. She was a PAC clerk as I recall. What happened there was not an intelligence gathering operation. That was a group of demented perverts abusing prisoners for their own personal gratification and the behavior was allowed to continue because of a totally dysfuntional chain of command at the unit level. That sort of behavior is inappropriate, unprofessional and criminal. She, quite rightly, did time in jails for her part in these ridiculous antics.

Yea sure it wasn't an intelligence gathering operation. But feel free to parrot to Pentagon's talking points to all 5 people who still buy that bullshit.

[BSmack]

if we're going to torture these people why not start employing Iron Maiden

Good God, what’s next? Mötley Crüe? Metallica? Will they stop at nothing?

You're talking about Muslims. Go with something more ambiguously gay like Cinderella or Poison.

[Tom In VA]

And coming full circle, I thought Obama's speech went quite well. The Double Standard aside, no white Republican would be allowed to 'splain hisself had he been associated with people of Wright's ilk, I thought it was a fresh speech.

If I hadn't considered voting for Obama until now, his speech was compelling enough to look at him more closely.

It might just be time to allow him to put his money where his mouth is and invoke all this "change" about which he continues to prattle. I believe he, as all our presidents before him, will surround himself with experts who have the necessary knowledge and experience to assist him in making an informed decision.

Like I said, I think it might be time and Barak just might be the man for the job.

[Felix]

Yeah...right. We're just like Hitler.

that's not what I said is it......

Just keep jerking yourself off in your Code Pink jammies, pussy. None of this is your concern.

so what the United States government does is none of my concern.....

how "for your own good" of you....

you're a funny guy without really trying....

[BSmack]

And coming full circle, I thought Obama's speech went quite well. The Double Standard aside, no white Republican would be allowed to 'splain hisself had he been associated with people of Wright's ilk, I thought it was a fresh speech.

If you examine the speech even more closely, you'll see that Obama provided the framework for a whole lot of people to explain themselves. The simple truth is that we all know people who express views that are not "politically correct" or, in the case of Rev. Wright's more extreme comments, completely irrational. Sometimes those people provide a perspectives, or points of view that are positive and illuminating in one area (like say in matters of faith) to such a degree that it becomes not only possible, but logical to overlook their other viewpoints. This certainly could apply to someone like John McCain as he tries to explain why he associates with a minister who has called for the obliteration of the Muslim faith throughout the world.

If I hadn't considered voting for Obama until now, his speech was compelling enough to look at him more closely.

It might just be time to allow him to put his money where his mouth is and invoke all this "change" about which he continues to prattle. I believe he, as all our presidents before him, will surround himself with experts who have the necessary knowledge and experience to assist him in making an informed decision.

Like I said, I think it might be time and Barak just might be the man for the job.

I like the way you're thinking. ;)

[Felix]

Yes, the way we conduct military operations is none of your business.

au contraire.....what any faction of the United States Government does in my name as a citizen of this country is EXPLICITY my business.....you should understand that fact....

No doubt your squeamishness would evaporate with breath taking quickness if it was your ass in the wind.

now your projecting....you somehow view my demand for accountability to equate to "squeamishness" is laughable at best....trust me, nothing could be further from the truth....

Of course, you've already demonstrated that you are quite comfortable with shameless hypocrisy and cowardly platitudes.

look hoss, I've been around these parts for a while so the whole "you're a coward" thing is not going to elicit the response you're looking for......save it for the vapid wastewads you so enjoy taunting...

[Felix]

National Security issues are and will remain none of your business and nobody is doing shit in your name.

hey, if you want to buy into that horseshit have at it....

What do we do with (or to) scumbags who have intelligence that we need to save American lives?

you already answered it hoss.....sleep deprivation and stress positions.....

so now maybe you can answer the question I posed....why do you suppose AQ leadership is doling our all of this "intelligence" to the cannon fodder "fighters" we've captured....

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

This certainly could apply to someone like John McCain as he tries to explain why he associates with a minister who has called for the obliteration of the Muslim faith throughout the world.

Muslims? Try "The Catholic Church":

McCain ‘Repudiates’ Televangelist Hagee’s Catholic Views, Following Endorsement

Hagee, leader of a San Antonio megachurch, has referred to the Roman Catholic Church as “the great whore” and called it a “false cult system” and “the apostate church” — “apostate” means someone who has forsaken his religion.

On Friday, McCain took a stronger stance on Hagee’s views in an interview with The Associated Press.

“We’ve had a dignified campaign, and I repudiate any comments that are made, including Pastor Hagee’s, if they are anti-Catholic or offensive to Catholics,” McCain said.



Nary a peep from the "liberal" media.

[Felix]

It's a cold, cruel world.

so again I ask the question...why not go full tilt and start yanking fingernails out....that will no doubt motivate them to start talking....

[Tom In VA]

It's a cold, cruel world.

so again I ask the question...why not go full tilt and start yanking fingernails out....that will no doubt motivate them to start talking....

Actually no it won't. Why won't you answer the question Felix ? We all know how you feel and what a strong moral sense you have, it is actually a very correct sense. But since you are able to cast judgement; it appears as if you've thought it through. You obviously considered that you are responsible for the lives of thousands of American and allied - soldiers and civilians alike. You have in your custody a relatively high profile person who has been integral in killing the people for whom you are responsible. Your job, find information out from him so that the lives under your watch can be spared.

What do you do ?

[War Wagon]

Muslims? Try "The Catholic Church"

Nice reach. Too bad that it exceeds your grasp.

[Felix]

What do you do ?

I haven't got an answer for that to be perfectly honest....

the dilemma we face is that since this country was founded, we as a people have always taken the moral high ground....we've never been a society of "they do it so we can do it" mentality...we've always been the bastion of what was right.....

unfortunately, we no longer follow that tradition....we no longer stand as the nation to be emulated..... that's what we as a nation have sacrificed...

to me, that's the biggest casualty of this war....