T1B

War Wagon wrote:
If he were alive today, I'm sure he'd regard you as an intellectual equal and the two of you would have much to discuss.

thanks

poptart wrote:
The Old Testament 'law' criticisms which you've raised are just not valid, Felix.As I discussed earlier in this thread, Christ is the new and final Covenant God has made with man, and man is no longer bound by the laws of the Old Testament.

so the "word of god" is subject to change

whoda thunk

Felix wrote:

War Wagon wrote:
If he were alive today, I'm sure he'd regard you as an intellectual equal and the two of you would have much to discuss.

thanks

poptart wrote:
The Old Testament 'law' criticisms which you've raised are just not valid, Felix.As I discussed earlier in this thread, Christ is the new and final Covenant God has made with man, and man is no longer bound by the laws of the Old Testament.

so the "word of god" is subject to change

whoda thunk

I would have thought you would have chosen the word....evolve. Hmm, silly me I guess.

:still snickering over in the corner:

rozy wrote:
:still snickering over in the corner:

glad I can keep you entertained...given that you're apparently some sort of expert on this maybe you can help me-exactly who determines what part of "god's word" is applicable and what is not and when was the old testament invalidated?

yours in the flying spaghetti monster

Felix wrote: so the "word of god" is subject to change

whoda thunk

Sure, He's God. I don't think you're understanding the notion of "Omnipotent".

See here's the deal. God is, whatever God is. There really isn't much we can do about it because we're NOT God.

If God wants to be "vengeful" and reclaim that which is His - i.e. His creation. He can. He is God. Sure it looks as if it's uncool to US. But God is - all loving and all knowing - we are not. Our notion of it being uncool is simply our own fear and concern that such a thing might happen to us and we'd feel UNCOMFORTABLE. When God reclaims that which is HIS, his creations enjoy .... who knows what .... while WE DON'T KNOW OF THEIR AFTER FATE - God does. They either enjoy Gods infinite love and mercy and live infinitely in union with Him OR they are relegated to "hell". Hell could be some karmic wheel in which the same soul is sent back until that soul "Gets It" or it could be some Dante'esque experience. Who knows ?

God does, I don't.

Does God choose to inspire people to understand His word ? I believe so. Does God choose that those people shake their fingers ruefully at others and verbally condemn them ? I don't believe so.

God's word is available to all who seek it and sincerely try to understand it. Does God's word change ? Or does it take on a different context ?

Sure, parables, and speaking to people through their hearts in terms and words they understand is not out of the realm of possibility when it comes to God, because --- God is Omnipotent.

That is, of course, if you believe a God exists.

Expert? Hardly. And I don't even need to sleep at a Holiday Inn to know 2 things.
1. The Holy Spirit is the answer to your question.
2. Remove the veils from the questions and you might get more complete and serious answers.

I mean, I can play the veiled question game as well. What came first, the chicken or the egg? Who exactly determines what is a transitional form and what is a turtle with down's syndrome? Why are agnostics so afraid of accountability?

Nice edit.

Make up your mind already. Freaking linguini spines...

Tom In VA wrote: God is Omnipotent.

That is, of course, if you believe a God exists.

God is only omnipotent if you believe there is God?

This is so confusing.

To each their own, I guess. Choose this day whom ye shall serve.

Tom In VA wrote:

If God wants to be "vengeful" and reclaim that which is His - i.e. His creation. He can. He is God.

no shit....he's been punishing man for a long time for eating a piece of fruit....that dude sure carries a grudge

Sure it looks as if it's uncool to US.

no, I'm down with executing 3,000 people for the high crime of golden idol worship

But God is - all loving and all knowing - we are not.

yeah he's so loving he racked up a death toll of almost 2.4 million (with his biggest kill being 1,000,000 at one time)....I'm afraid if he loved us any more we'd be extinct as a species

Our notion of it being uncool is simply our own fear and concern that such a thing might happen to us and we'd feel UNCOMFORTABLE. When God reclaims that which is HIS, his creations enjoy .... who knows what .... while WE DON'T KNOW OF THEIR AFTER FATE - God does. They either enjoy Gods infinite love and mercy and live infinitely in union with Him OR they are relegated to "hell". Hell could be some karmic wheel in which the same soul is sent back until that soul "Gets It" or it could be some Dante'esque experience. Who knows ?

so eternal punishment for not worshiping him is how he demonstrates his love for us? Wow, now I really do hope he's just a figment of someone's imagination because if he's not, I'm in big trouble

Does God's word change ? Or does it take on a different context ?

well it really doesn't matter, what does matter is who makes that determination.

Is there like a council or do the masses vote on it?

rozy wrote:know 2 things.
1. The Holy Spirit is the answer to your question.
2. Remove the veils from the questions and you might get more complete and serious answers.

that's pretty mystical

Why are agnostics so afraid of accountability?

accountability? you're kidding right, because according to the "word of god", I can pretty much be a fucking prick all of my life and if I just accept jesus as my savior I get into heaven...where's the accountability in that dreamworld

"no shit....he's been punishing man for a long time for eating a piece of fruit....that dude sure carries a grudge"

And Bubba was in trouble for getting a blow job.

Welcome to the wasteland more commonly referred to as a liberal mind...

Accepting Christ solely as a means of fire insurance is not accepting Christ at all. In your context, anyhoo...

Felix wrote: yeah he's so loving he racked up a death toll of almost 2.4 million (with his biggest kill being 1,000,000 at one time)....I'm afraid if he loved us any more we'd be extinct as a species

"Death". There is no death in God. God IS life. There would be NO life without Him. Our corporal or temporal existence might very well become extinct. How do you know that pure spiritual life in union with Him isn't exponentially or .... literally .. INFINITELY better than this life's existence ? We don't.

But God does.

Felix wrote: so eternal punishment for not worshiping him is how he demonstrates his love for us? Wow, now I really do hope he's just a figment of someone's imagination because if he's not, I'm in big trouble

Like I said, I don't know the criteria for getting into the big game in the sky. I know this, if I make it and see somebody like a Hindu ... I sure as "heaven" :P won't complain and say "Hey look, who that dude in here ?"

Felix wrote: well it really doesn't matter, what does matter is who makes that determination.

Is there like a council or do the masses vote on it?

It's your heart. You can feel free to share that with others, they might follow you, if that's what you're looking for. Then, you might find yourself tempted to exploit that following and you might even give into that temptation and do some untoward things to your followers and your fellow man. It's happened. Further, after you die the people YOU inspired might have that happen. Either way, no matter what YOU or your followers do mistakingly or knowingly that is untoward, will never extinguish the fire of the message God put in your heart. It might take on different forms, different contexts, but the bottom line is that message will continue to grow and flourish.

And change the hearts of man.

Felix wrote: accountability? you're kidding right, because according to the "word of god", I can pretty much be a fucking prick all of my life and if I just accept jesus as my savior I get into heaven...where's the accountability in that dreamworld

I still don't think you're getting it when it comes to "OMNI" = ALL and "SCIENT" = from the latin SCIENTIA meaning KNOWLEDGE

You really can't pull one over on God. That's where the accountability is.

Felix wrote:so the "word of god" is subject to change

whoda thunk

You could look at the situation as somewhat similar to giving your 9 yr old child a rule to follow and then modifying the rule when he is say ... 16.

The modification of the rule in no way negates the sincerity or reasoning behind the original rule.

Felix wrote:maybe you can help me-exactly who determines what part of "god's word" is applicable and what is not and when was the old testament invalidated?

Felix, it is not a deep Biblical mystery to understand that Christ is the new and final Covenant.
This is very commonly known and understood by those who have had even a basic study of the Bible.

I posted an answer to a variation of this question of yours much earlier in the thread.


Still no time now, so I'll get to your 'Hitler' question when I can.

Where to begin?

A caveat...I've been drinking. Now that doesn't mean I will be sending any of you pictures of me in women's bloomers, but if I seem disjointed, or irrational that's my pre-existing condition...sorry.

Felix, I think you are probably younger than I am. I also think you are probably more intelligent than I am. I tend to agree with most of what you have posted here, but I also think that you are coming across as attacking because you do not believe in what you call the spaghetti monster thingy. You are surely smart enough to know that faith is just that. I'm too lazy to do a dictionary.com search, but to me it means a belief in something that is not able to be proven. You are basically arguing a negative. Not only that, but you are doing it aggressivley. If as you say, you're agnostic then you have to admit that "they" have as good a chance of being correct as you do. Who knows, and how could they?

There are undeniably good and bad things that EVOLVE from almost all organized religions. Whether it's merely organizational skills, for instance, or a higher power, who's to say?



Rozy, I'm pretty sure that liberal and conservative; Republican and Democrat aren't mentioned in the bible anywhere. Youre perception of one or the other really don't have anything to do with what I grew up thinking the bible meant, but that's just me. Maybe my liberal slant as a youngster meant that I would only get the liberal "King J-Dog" version or something. Who knows, there sure have been a lot of different interpretations of "the word".

Tom in VA,

See here's the deal. God is, whatever God is. There really isn't much we can do about it because we're NOT God.

If God wants to be "vengeful" and reclaim that which is His - i.e. His creation. He can. He is God. Sure it looks as if it's uncool to US. But God is - all loving and all knowing - we are not. Our notion of it being uncool is simply our own fear and concern that such a thing might happen to us and we'd feel UNCOMFORTABLE. When God reclaims that which is HIS, his creations enjoy .... who knows what .... while WE DON'T KNOW OF THEIR AFTER FATE - God does. .

OK, I'm with you up to here. This is where you lose me...if it matters.

They either enjoy Gods infinite love and mercy and live infinitely in union with Him OR they are relegated to "hell".

To me this is based on your faith, which is totally cool, I won't try to talk you out of it or argue that YOU ARE WRONG AND I AM RIGHT. It's just silly. The converse is also true in my eyes.

Nacho, that was the stupidest reply I've seen in a long time!

rozy wrote: Welcome to the wasteland more commonly referred to as a liberal mind...

what does one's political slant have to do with the word of god?

rozy wrote:Accepting Christ solely as a means of fire insurance is not accepting Christ at all. In your context, anyhoo...

so you're saying that being a good person, committing yourself to bettering mankind, serving your fellow man can get you into heaven? that goes against the word of god so I guess you must be one of the people that determines what is and is not applicable

Tom In VA wrote:
"Death". There is no death in God. God IS life. There would be NO life without Him. Our corporal or temporal existence might very well become extinct. How do you know that pure spiritual life in union with Him isn't exponentially or .... literally .. INFINITELY better than this life's existence ? We don't.

are you channeling tart here?

Like I said, I don't know the criteria for getting into the big game in the sky. I know this, if I make it and see somebody like a Hindu ... I sure as "heaven" :P won't complain and say "Hey look, who that dude in here ?"

Hindu's aren't allowed in heaven because they haven't accepted Jesus as their savior...or are you changing around the word of god here

You can feel free to share that with others, they might follow you, if that's what you're looking for. Then, you might find yourself tempted to exploit that following and you might even give into that temptation and do some untoward things to your followers and your fellow man. It's happened.

David Koresh and Jim Jones thinks that's pretty fucked up

Further, after you die the people YOU inspired might have that happen. Either way, no matter what YOU or your followers do mistakingly or knowingly that is untoward, will never extinguish the fire of the message God put in your heart. It might take on different forms, different contexts, but the bottom line is that message will continue to grow and flourish.

And change the hearts of man.

but if you don't worship god and accept jesus as your savior, you're a goner-sounds pretty simple to me

good christians-heaven

marginal christians-toast
agnostics/atheists-toast
hindu's-toast
muslims-toast
buddhists-toast
jews-toast
mormons-the jury is still out-but I'd probably guess toast

when judgement day finally gets here, gods going to have a lot of killing/condemning to do

huh? wrote: Felix, I think you are probably younger than I am.

and you'd more than likely be wrong

I know it seems as if I'm attacking but in reality, I'm not.

I'm just pretty pissed off right now as I watch one of the best people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing slowly dying from an insidious disease and wonder what is the value and where is the justice there...oh and she's a god fearing Christian?

my anger is largely attributable to that

huh? wrote:To me this is based on your faith, which is totally cool, I won't try to talk you out of it or argue that YOU ARE WRONG AND I AM RIGHT. It's just silly. The converse is also true in my eyes.

Well thanks. I don't know if I'm right, I followed that with I don't know ... but God does. It's not important for me to know. The knowledge of who or what happens when we die is privy only to God and to those that are dead. That's primarily my point.

I'm curious as to the "converse is also true in my eyes". Elaborate if you choose. I find this talk stimulating, perhaps enlightening most of the time (RACK poptart and rozy)/

I know one thing and one thing alone. There is a God, I am not Him. The rest is based in trust. Trust I have based on Christ's sacrifice. God's mercy is infinite and he has more asphalt than we have ass, like I said, I believe Him to be a jealous God and He wants ALL HIS CREATION to return to Him.

That doesn't mean one can shuck and jive and aww shucks their way, I'd imagine, who knows. I believe God to be all knowing though and He would see right through such gamesmanship.

He calls us all to Him in His own way and in His own time. Ultimately though, it's our choice. Even Jesus had a choice.

Tom In VA wrote: There is a God, I am not Him.

rack all Rudy resets

Felix wrote: I'm just pretty pissed off right now as I watch one of the best people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing slowly dying from an insidious disease and wonder what is the value and where is the justice there...oh and she's a god fearing Christian?

my anger is largely attributable to that

Take it out on God. He can take it. His own begotten son cried out from the cross "My God, My God, why have you foresaken me".

Mother Teresa, a Christian who WALKED most peoples' TALK, also went through vast periods of feeling as if somehow God abandoned her.

It's natural Felix. God knows that.

I watch my son crying when he's sick and it hurts me. But there is nothing I can do for him at the time, except try and comfort him and assure him he will be okay. He's FIVE MONTH'S OLD. He doesn't understand the words I'm saying, he has no way to know that he'll feel better tomorrow or in a few days. He is in pain.

God knows our pain, but He also knows that He has something better in store for us. We don't know, I don't know, but He does.

We cannot understand these things, intellectually, I mean there is understanding to be found there ... but the understanding it never complete. Ultimately it requires a leap of faith and some trust.

It might not mean much to you, but God be with you. Most importantly God be with your friend. He probably is.

Felix, the 'Hitler' quandary (pray for him) is basically this:

A person of profound evil his whole life accepts Christ on his death bed and makes it to heaven.
A person who does good his/her whole life never accepts Christ and goes to hell.

How is this fair?


Assume there is a large fish tank with, say 100 fish in it.
Someone pours poison into the tank one day.
You come by and recognize the situation.
In your effort to be good and help some of the struggling fish you place a wire divider in the tank to isolate a half-dozen or so of them ... because you have a limited amount of some fish vitamin food that you think can energize some of them for a while.
By being the good guy, you help a handful of fish do better for a while.
But ultimately, they reach their limit and due to being in a poisoned tank, they die like all the others.

To really help the fish, they have to be moved to clean water, but this never takes place.

So it is with the Ghandi's of the world.
The 'good' that they are doing for people is good and fine, but it doesn't give anyone LIFE.

Man left God's Word and fell into a state in which sickness, anguish and disaster has no choice but to come.
You will surely die.

At the beginning, God, without negotiation ... because he is GOD, made a Covenant with man.
He said, "Do this and you will live, or do that and you will die.
Man (deceived by satan) did that which takes him to death.

Again without negotiating with man, because he is ... GOD, God promised that there would be salvation from this profound problem.

The Covenant is, with no strings attached, in simply taking the Christ.
Do that and you live.
Do something other and you die.

If a Hitler-type person sincerely repents before God near the very end, why would you want him to go to eternal hell?
Quietly ask yourself why you want that?

His evil deeds on earth can't be undone in any way.
You may consider what it is within yourself that has you want for a sincerely repentant person to suffer eternally.

huh? wrote: Rozy, I'm pretty sure that liberal and conservative; Republican and Democrat aren't mentioned in the bible anywhere. Youre perception of one or the other really don't have anything to do with what I grew up thinking the bible meant, but that's just me. Maybe my liberal slant as a youngster meant that I would only get the liberal "King J-Dog" version or something. Who knows, there sure have been a lot of different interpretations of "the word".

Dude, I am fully aware of that. Just having fun with Felix while at the same time prodding enough to get the veil lifted. It is difficult to have a productive conversation when all motivations are not on the table. So thank you, kindly, for your assistance in that regard.

And by all means, KEEP THE BLOOMERS TO YOURSELF!!

rozy wrote: Just having fun with Felix while at the same time prodding enough to get the veil lifted. It is difficult to have a productive conversation when all motivations are not on the table.

you're a good man rozy

thanks for the laughs, I needed them

poptart wrote:So it is with the Ghandi's of the world.
The 'good' that they are doing for people is good and fine, but it doesn't give anyone LIFE.

So Ghandi with his lifetime of good works is going to hell, and Poptart with his lifetime of running random individuals from message boards and supporting the Oakland Raiders is going to heaven? Praise Allah.

Goober McTuber wrote:
So Ghandi with his lifetime of good works is going to hell, and Poptart with his lifetime of running random individuals from message boards and supporting the Oakland Raiders is going to heaven? Praise Allah.

"This is some fucked-up repugnant shit."

jules

Tom In VA wrote:

huh? wrote:To me this is based on your faith, which is totally cool, I won't try to talk you out of it or argue that YOU ARE WRONG AND I AM RIGHT. It's just silly. The converse is also true in my eyes.

I'm curious as to the "converse is also true in my eyes". Elaborate if you choose. I find this talk stimulating, perhaps enlightening most of the time (RACK poptart and rozy)/

Sorry Tom, nothing all that enlightening about me. I just find that usually during a discussion of religion, everything gets boiled down to the question of faith. You either have it or you don't. Since there is no way to "prove" that someone is right or wrong (regardless of which position they are taking), it becomes pointless to continue trying to prove to the other person why they are wrong.

I wouldn't say that. You posed an interesting question and contributed points of view. That stimulates the conversation.

I wouldn't say anyone is trying to prove their is a God, there really isn't any proof for or against the notion of God. What I think occurs is a defense of one's position. "Here's why I believe", "Oh yeah here's why I don't" and all points in between.

Throughout it all I find it a stimulating exercise, in moderation, and just put forth my own spin based on my own experience.

let me ask you an honest question Tom

lets pretend you had never heard of the bible

then pretend that you stumbled into a book store and ran across a copy of it and started reading, with everything else about you (education, knowledge, etc.) being the same, except for any knowledge of god or jesus

do you honestly think that after reading it for a while you would say to yourself

"yep this is the truth and this is what I should follow"

Felix wrote:let me ask you an honest question Tom

lets pretend you had never heard of the bible

then pretend that you stumbled into a book store and ran across a copy of it and started reading, with everything else about you (education, knowledge, etc.) being the same, except for any knowledge of god or jesus

do you honestly think that after reading it for a while you would say to yourself

"yep this is the truth and this is what I should follow"

I wish I could answer that question for you. But I can't. I can't "pretend". I tried, for a real long time. I have abandoned much of what I've I thought I knew and started over. But I couldn't shake the foundation of there being a God and Jesus being who He said He was. Damned near killed myself trying, but I couldn't shake it.

poptart wrote:There were no tornados at the time when God created man and man was living by God's grace, as he was created and intended for.

I laughed.

Aside from the obvious ... i.e. How the fuck would you know ...

The Earth was clearly created before man, and definitely before people learned to write.

C'mon, pop.

I'm speaking of what is in the Bible, what we're told about man's condition(s) prior to the Genesis 3 incident contrasted very starkly with how things became after the Genesis 3 incident.

Prior he was blessed, he was with God, all was good, and he was to live forever.

After is when everything became cursed, extremely troublesome and he was destined to face death.

Tom In VA wrote:there really isn't any proof for or against the notion of God.

Mary's profile on a piece of toast says differently.

poptart wrote:I'm speaking of what is in the Bible, what we're told about man's condition(s) prior to the Genesis 3 incident contrasted very starkly with how things became after the Genesis 3 incident.

hold er right there newt-I was under the impression that the old testament was OUT-now you bring up Genesis

or are you now cherry picking the words of god and kicking everything else to the curb?

IndyFrisco wrote:

Tom In VA wrote:there really isn't any proof for or against the notion of God.

Mary's profile on a piece of toast says differently.

:D

You're just talking very silly now, Felix.

The events described in early Genesis are never disputed by any later Scripture.
Many of the the events are, in fact, verified later in Scripture.

poptart wrote:You're just talking very silly now, Felix.

really?

earlier in this thread

poptart wrote: man is no longer bound by the laws of the Old Testament.

I'm not sure I get what this means then

The events described in early Genesis are never disputed by any later Scripture.
Many of the the events are, in fact, verified later in Scripture.

a book that verifies itself? that's pretty funny

I'm going to try that with the IRS

"Hey look, I've verified that my tax forms are in fact correct, so there's no reason you need to do this audit"

Laws of the Old Testament are far different than events in the Old Testament.

IndyFrisco wrote:Laws of the Old Testament are far different than events in the Old Testament.

good thing, otherwise the old testament wouldn't make much sense

so, which would you say is correct-that man came before the animals or after

GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image,

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone;
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field

hell, the same chapter can't even get it straight

I know I know, I'm taking things out of context obviously

And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

What I meant was I read poptart's words to mean that the laws in the old were changed in the new. However, the events of the old still occurred.

Any Bible thumper will say the Bible does not contradict itself. I personally think it does in some areas. I did years of Bible study in my late teens to early twenties. I can't remember offhand all the inconsistencies I saw nor will I reread the Bible and try to do all that research as I am indifferent either way. At one point, I do remember Jesus being referring to as the Monring Star while Satan at one point was referred to as the Star of the Morning. What the hell is up with that?

I believe in God. I told myself long ago that if I believed in God and there was no God, so what? If I did not believe in God and there was a God, my afterlife is fukked. If my God isn't the "right" God, oh well, I tried. Seems somewhat cynical, but it gives me peace of mind. I don't have the same relationship with God as I did long ago, but I think I'm a'ight with Him and He with me. I say my prayers every night with my son, ask for God's will with my dying uncle while thanking Him for my precious children. I don't push my religion on anyone while at the same time I don't want anyone pushing their lack of it on to me.

be with you.

Solid take Indy.


The bible contradicting itself is one of the pitfalls I was referring to when I say - "When I read the bible it's a testimony to the old adage give and idiot a little information and he's dangerous".

I believe in the evolution of life. I believe it is that vehicle by which God created all things. I believe at some point he caused us to evolve. I think that evolution is recorded in the bible. The contradictions, as it were, could very well be a matter of God being God and humans being humans. We don't always understand fully, as we are finite.

Think of an audible in football. Coach calls a play, qb tells team "We're going left" then the coach hand signals an audible, the audible means "Go Right".

It is the coaches perogative. You have players that hear the audible and go where they're supposed to go, you have players that don't hear the audible and go left. Then of course you have the stubborn ones, usually some glory boy who wanted to it HIS way that knows to go right but goes left anyway or creates his own play. I try not to be the latter.

I also think so much is left up to interpretation. The Bible, in and of itself, is an interpretation. I'll hang my hat on it, but I won't take every word what my literal interpretation of it is nor will I take anyone else's interpretation as God's words.