T1B

TOP 10 ALL TIME

1. ND
2. Michigan
3. Bama
4. Tie Oklahoma / Texas
6. Nebraska
7. USC
8. Ohio State
9. Princeton
10. Yale


TOP 10 ALL TIME using Van's logic (only last 45 years mean anything)

1. Miami
2. USC
3. OU
4. ND
5. Florida State
6. Bama
7. St John's
8. Nebraska
9. Texas
10. ???????



SoCal,

What the hell does NFL hall of famers have to do with college football? Further Heisman's and all american's really don't mean crap either. Look no further than 2005, Bush should give his Heisman to Young.

Left Seater wrote:
TOP 10 ALL TIME using Van's logic (only last 45 years mean anything)

1. Miami
2. USC
3. OU
4. ND
5. Florida State
6. Bama
7. St John's
8. Nebraska
9. Texas
10. ???????

i think Nebraska would have to be higher than 8th on a last 45 years list. how many straight years with 9 wins or more? 5 MNCs? I'd put them over ND at least--dormant for 15-20 years (roughly 30-40% of the time frame given). i think NU would be no lower than 3 or 4 on a last 45 list--with a makable case for #1.

Maybe. Possible I was swayed by their drop the last 9 years or so.

Nothing against them, but for some reason they just don't stand out in my mind much. I don't have anything against them, just unremarkable and kinda forgetable.

Left Seater wrote:Maybe. Possible I was swayed by their drop the last 9 years or so.

Nothing against them, but for some reason they just don't stand out in my mind much. I don't have anything against them, just unremarkable and kinda forgetable.

playing devil's advocate, couldn't you also argue that Miami has experienced the same drop since the 01 Rose Bowl BCS game? and Miami doesn't have the history of success in the late 60's-70's (2 Devaney MNC's) and mid-late 70's through the 80's, were it not for Oklahoma winning in Lincoln a few times when NU was probably the better team, they play for it a couple more times in the Orange Bowl. With NU, you also have the 71 and 95 teams, both considered by many to be "the best team ever".

on the flip side of that they have some pretty bad losses. No way they should lose to Texas in a few they did lose. The long home winning streak to close out the BIg 8 and open the Big XII came while OU was down and so was the Big XII south.

As I said, I could see moving them up a few spots. Couldn't really give a rat's ass about top lists though. Figured I should throw one out though if I am commenting on others.

SoCalTrjn wrote:Most Bowl Wins.

1. USC 31 wins in 47 Bowls
2. Alabama 31 wins in 56 Bowls
3. Penn State 26 wins
4. Georgia 25 wins in 44 Bowls
5. Tennessee 25 wins in 47 Bowls
6. Texas 25 wins in 48 Bowls
7. Oklahoma 24 wins
8. Nebraska 23 wins
9. Georgia Tech 22 wins
10. Florida State 21 wins in 37 Bowls

Oklahoma and Nebraska get slighted in the Bowl count because of the old Big 8. The conference had a rule up until the the mid to late 1960s that a school could not participate in a bowl two seasons in a row.

SoCalTrjn wrote:

M Club wrote:

SoCalTrjn wrote:In Bowl Games a school isnt going to be playing vs the likes of Haskel Institute, Hillsdale, Illinois Cycling Club, Iowa Navy Pre-Flight....
If you don't understand that Bowl Winning Percentage and Bowl Wins is a MUCH more important stat than overall winning percentage and overall wins for determining a schools overall greatness, you're a fucking idiot.

also, the weak-ooc phenomenon is relatively new. most teams have put their resumes together against conference schools, not in-state directionals.

so there, fucking idiot.

Really?
Adelbert, Adrian, Albion, American Medical, Ann Arbor High School, Beloit, Butler, Camp Grant, Carlisle Indian School, Carroll, Case Institute of Technology, Chicago, Chicago harvard Club, Denison, Depauw, Detroit, Detroit AC, Detroit Industrial Team, Grand Rapids High School, Great Lakes NTS, Hillsdale, Iowa Navy Pre Flight, Kalamazoo, Kenyon, Lake Forest, Lake Forest- Rush Medical, Lawrence, Marrieta, Marquette, Michigan AA, Michigan Almuni, Michigan Military Academy, Mount Union, Oberlin, Ohio Northern, Ohio Wesleyan, Olivet, Penninsular Club, Physicians and Surgeons, Quantico Marines, Racine, Toronto, Wabash, Windosr Club, Western Reserve and Wittenberg account for 144 of Michigans 872 wins

Not that it makes the point any less valid but the teams I put in bold had seriously good football programs in the era in which you are discussing.

SunCoastSooner wrote:Not that it makes the point any less valid but the teams I put in bold had seriously good football programs in the era in which you are discussing.

Are you fucking kidding me? He has no idea who was good prior to the midway point of 2002.

Killian wrote:

SunCoastSooner wrote:Not that it makes the point any less valid but the teams I put in bold had seriously good football programs in the era in which you are discussing.

Are you fucking kidding me? He has no idea who was good prior to the midway point of 2002.

I believe SCS was saying his point, or lack thereof, already HAD no validity; therefore, it could not be made less valid. At least that's the way I read it.

Killian wrote:

SunCoastSooner wrote:Not that it makes the point any less valid but the teams I put in bold had seriously good football programs in the era in which you are discussing.

Are you fucking kidding me? He has no idea who was good prior to the midway point of 2002.

Are you saying Carson Palmer and Justin Fargas DIDN'T invent football?

it was a reply to the weak OOC games being something new to the sport. Case Institute of Technology was never a strong OOC opponent

Jsc810 wrote:

Jsc810 wrote:I came here just to see if Terry was posting, just to make sure that he wasn't involved with the plane crash near him, damnit

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,492164,00.html

Terry, you can check in anytime now. :?

In court all morning, sorry.

Obviously not involved in the plane crash, but I did drive by the exact area where it happened about six hours earlier.

IndyFrisco wrote:

Killian wrote:

SunCoastSooner wrote:Not that it makes the point any less valid but the teams I put in bold had seriously good football programs in the era in which you are discussing.

Are you fucking kidding me? He has no idea who was good prior to the midway point of 2002.

I believe SCS was saying his point, or lack thereof, already HAD no validity; therefore, it could not be made less valid. At least that's the way I read it.

I know. Just taking a shot at the resident bandwaggoner.

SunCoastSooner wrote:

SoCalTrjn wrote:Most Bowl Wins.

1. USC 31 wins in 47 Bowls
2. Alabama 31 wins in 56 Bowls
3. Penn State 26 wins
4. Georgia 25 wins in 44 Bowls
5. Tennessee 25 wins in 47 Bowls
6. Texas 25 wins in 48 Bowls
7. Oklahoma 24 wins
8. Nebraska 23 wins
9. Georgia Tech 22 wins
10. Florida State 21 wins in 37 Bowls

Oklahoma and Nebraska get slighted in the Bowl count because of the old Big 8. The conference had a rule up until the the mid to late 1960s that a school could not participate in a bowl two seasons in a row.

The Big Ten and Pac-8/10 had similar rules up until the 1970's, IIRC. Also, as Killian mentioned, ND had a strict no bowl games policy for about 45 years, which period included some of the best teams ND has ever fielded.

just to pitch in on the "bowl game" as exhibition stance that characterizes much of the "modern era", the Big 8 I believe also had a tie-breaker rule that the team that had not been to the bowl in question (say, Orange Bowl) in the longer time would get to go. a rule like this says bowl game=vacation, not a maximum proof of a team's on the field football prowess.

my uncle went to the Orange Bowl in 67 and 68 as a backup QB for OU and he says they spent all day at the beach, on Bowl sponsored tours around Miami, and doing PR stuff for the Bowl committees with a little practice mixed in.

Terry in Crapchester wrote:

SunCoastSooner wrote:

SoCalTrjn wrote:Most Bowl Wins.

1. USC 31 wins in 47 Bowls
2. Alabama 31 wins in 56 Bowls
3. Penn State 26 wins
4. Georgia 25 wins in 44 Bowls
5. Tennessee 25 wins in 47 Bowls
6. Texas 25 wins in 48 Bowls
7. Oklahoma 24 wins
8. Nebraska 23 wins
9. Georgia Tech 22 wins
10. Florida State 21 wins in 37 Bowls

Oklahoma and Nebraska get slighted in the Bowl count because of the old Big 8. The conference had a rule up until the the mid to late 1960s that a school could not participate in a bowl two seasons in a row.

The Big Ten and Pac-8/10 had similar rules up until the 1970's, IIRC. Also, as Killian mentioned, ND had a strict no bowl games policy for about 45 years, which period included some of the best teams ND has ever fielded.

It wasn't until the 70s.. they did so until the mid 50s... the Big 8 was the last to get rid of the rule about a decade behind the other conferences. I have a rather interesting DVD on the OU/Nebraska series that talks about it and some of the former coaches and assistants discuss it.

King Crimson wrote:
none of which changes the fact that UT didn't win a MNC for 35 years. And needless to say, UT's been cited/probation for major infractions 3 times since 1965. so, let's not play the innocence and virtue angle. The only people who don't think UT cheated as much as everyone else in the SWC are Texas fans.

Do you really want me to go into my documents and pull the list of cheating that your renegade program has done? The list is like my dick, long and thick.

yes Texas went 35 years between titles, but I do believe Michigan won it's last title 12 years ago and before that they went 48 years between titles. Don't see anyone docking them for that.

SunCoastSooner wrote:

SoCalTrjn wrote:Most Bowl Wins.

1. USC 31 wins in 47 Bowls
2. Alabama 31 wins in 56 Bowls
3. Penn State 26 wins
4. Georgia 25 wins in 44 Bowls
5. Tennessee 25 wins in 47 Bowls
6. Texas 25 wins in 48 Bowls
7. Oklahoma 24 wins
8. Nebraska 23 wins
9. Georgia Tech 22 wins
10. Florida State 21 wins in 37 Bowls

Oklahoma and Nebraska get slighted in the Bowl count because of the old Big 8. The conference had a rule up until the the mid to late 1960s that a school could not participate in a bowl two seasons in a row.

wait, is this a blOwU fan bitching about a conference rule? It may have been a stupid rule but your school agreed to the rule before the season was played. Do those words sound familar?

SunCoastSooner wrote:

Terry in Crapchester wrote:

SunCoastSooner wrote:Oklahoma and Nebraska get slighted in the Bowl count because of the old Big 8. The conference had a rule up until the the mid to late 1960s that a school could not participate in a bowl two seasons in a row.

The Big Ten and Pac-8/10 had similar rules up until the 1970's, IIRC. Also, as Killian mentioned, ND had a strict no bowl games policy for about 45 years, which period included some of the best teams ND has ever fielded.

It wasn't until the 70s.. they did so until the mid 50s... the Big 8 was the last to get rid of the rule about a decade behind the other conferences. I have a rather interesting DVD on the OU/Nebraska series that talks about it and some of the former coaches and assistants discuss it.

After looking it up, I was wrong about the Pac-8/10, but the Big Ten apparently had a similar rule in place into the 1970's.

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/di ... istory.php
http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/di ... istory.php

Pretty safe bet that Michigan and Ohio State have always been the dominant teams in that conference. Ohio State didn't play in bowls in consecutive seasons until '72-'73. Michigan didn't play in bowls in consecutive seasons until '75-'76.

King Crimson wrote:just to pitch in on the "bowl game" as exhibition stance that characterizes much of the "modern era", the Big 8 I believe also had a tie-breaker rule that the team that had not been to the bowl in question (say, Orange Bowl) in the longer time would get to go. a rule like this says bowl game=vacation, not a maximum proof of a team's on the field football prowess.

my uncle went to the Orange Bowl in 67 and 68 as a backup QB for OU and he says they spent all day at the beach, on Bowl sponsored tours around Miami, and doing PR stuff for the Bowl committees with a little practice mixed in.

The Pac 10 still has that rule. the tie breaker for the Rose Bowl birth would go to the team that has gone the longest time without playing in that Bowl.

Vito Corleone wrote:Do you really want me to go into my documents and pull the list of cheating that your renegade program has done? The list is like my dick, long and thick.

jfc, i don't even file away my bank statements or tax reciepts. you keep a dossier on oklahoma's infractions?

i love after dealing with junior high kids all day that i can check t1b and find another my dick is so... quip. i guess if that's your metaphorical repertoire...

SoCalTrjn wrote:it was a reply to the weak OOC games being something new to the sport. Case Institute of Technology was never a strong OOC opponent

just about every game back then had to be ooc considering the other conference schools didn't have football programs, and if they did, the schools on michigan's schedule were probably better. i don't know, but apparently you do. the trend of paying three scrub schools to come take a beating is relatively new considering cf was played well before pete carroll was coaching sc. you may not have noticed the trend absolutely blow up while the trojans were busy losing all of the 90s.

michigan has won about 74% of its game and 73% of its big ten games, so the ooc games hasn't unfairly padded its win total like you seem to be indicating.

M Club wrote:just about every game back then had to be ooc considering the other conference schools didn't have football programs

Depending how early we're talking here, "ooc" was irrelevant as they didn't even have conferences. Everybody was an independent. But according to some here, Michigan and the like were still supposed to go out and schedule all these non existent juggernauts. Makes sense.

BTW, I'm pretty sure Physicians and Surgeons could beat EMU.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:BTW, I'm pretty sure Physicians and Surgeons could beat EMU.

probably. they would have had to play when emu was still michigan normal college and its student body entirely female.

M Club wrote:

Vito Corleone wrote:Do you really want me to go into my documents and pull the list of cheating that your renegade program has done? The list is like my dick, long and thick.

jfc, i don't even file away my bank statements or tax reciepts. you keep a dossier on oklahoma's infractions?

i love after dealing with junior high kids all day that i can check t1b and find another my dick is so... quip. i guess if that's your metaphorical repertoire...

Yes I do, and word of advise, don't ever let yourself get too old to feel it's too Juvenal to use a "my dick" reference on the internet. When that happens it stops being fun.

Vito Corleone wrote:

M Club wrote:

Vito Corleone wrote:Do you really want me to go into my documents and pull the list of cheating that your renegade program has done? The list is like my dick, long and thick.

jfc, i don't even file away my bank statements or tax reciepts. you keep a dossier on oklahoma's infractions?

i love after dealing with junior high kids all day that i can check t1b and find another my dick is so... quip. i guess if that's your metaphorical repertoire...

Yes I do, and word of advise, don't ever let yourself get too old to feel it's too Juvenal to use a "my dick" reference on the internet. When that happens it stops being fun.

so you are reading Roman satirists too, wow!

outside Vito's documents, "sources" (the Adrian Peterson crack ring) and "where there's smoke there's fire" accusations (the Darrell Scott files)...there's Vito's massive crank.

and all that stuff (OU's cheating) is available at the ncaa website. as are UT's 3 major infractions.

King Crimson wrote: so you are reading Roman satirists too, wow!

my first thought was this dude:

Vito wrote:and word of advise, don't ever let yourself get too old to feel it's too Juvenal to use a "my dick" reference on the internet. When that happens it stops being fun.

what stops being fun? i have a pretty ribald sense of humor and rather coarse sensibilities, but when i think about the sort of people my age who reference their "huge dick" i'm pretty glad i dropped it from my lexicon.

Vito Corleone wrote:

SunCoastSooner wrote:

SoCalTrjn wrote:Most Bowl Wins.

1. USC 31 wins in 47 Bowls
2. Alabama 31 wins in 56 Bowls
3. Penn State 26 wins
4. Georgia 25 wins in 44 Bowls
5. Tennessee 25 wins in 47 Bowls
6. Texas 25 wins in 48 Bowls
7. Oklahoma 24 wins
8. Nebraska 23 wins
9. Georgia Tech 22 wins
10. Florida State 21 wins in 37 Bowls

Oklahoma and Nebraska get slighted in the Bowl count because of the old Big 8. The conference had a rule up until the the mid to late 1960s that a school could not participate in a bowl two seasons in a row.

wait, is this a blOwU fan bitching about a conference rule? It may have been a stupid rule but your school agreed to the rule before the season was played. Do those words sound familar?

I wasn't crying about like tejass fan... I was clarifying the statistic.

M Club wrote:

King Crimson wrote: so you are reading Roman satirists too, wow!

my first thought was this dude:

Vito wrote:and word of advise, don't ever let yourself get too old to feel it's too Juvenal to use a "my dick" reference on the internet. When that happens it stops being fun.

what stops being fun? i have a pretty ribald sense of humor and rather coarse sensibilities, but when i think about the sort of people my age who reference their "huge dick" i'm pretty glad i dropped it from my lexicon.

You think about people who reference their dick? You lost me, why would you contemplate such things?

Left Seater wrote:TOP 10 ALL TIME

1. ND
2. Michigan
3. Bama
4. Tie Oklahoma / Texas
6. Nebraska
7. USC
8. Ohio State
9. Princeton
10. Yale

NO TIES!

-Donovan McNabb

TOP 10 ALL TIME using Van's logic (only last 45 years mean anything)

1. Miami
2. USC
3. OU
4. ND
5. Florida State
6. Bama
7. St John's
8. Nebraska
9. Texas
10. ???????

My logic??

I had ND and Michigan ranked 1 and 2. I had Texas over OU. This certainly wasn't for what these teams did the last 45 years. It was for their all time records.

Princton and Yale simply don't rate. They were part of the "club football team" era when simply beating a hastily thrown together group of local dock workers counted as a BTPCF victory.

Their games were barely much different than intramural games and they haven't been D1 for a long time. I'm sure if we go through D1-AA and D2, which is where Princeton and Yale reside, we'll also find other programs with huge numbers.

You wanna put Grambling way up there too?

SoCal,

What the hell does NFL hall of famers have to do with college football? Further Heisman's and all american's really don't mean crap either. Look no further than 2005, Bush should give his Heisman to Young.

Bush's Heisman in 2005 was every bit as legitimate as every other Heisman awarded before the bowl games were played. Reggie Bush was phenomenal that year. It was more legitimate than many, actually.

Since you want to target USC, well, Gary Beban beating out O.J.Simpson was an absolute joke and Archie Griffin shouldn't have beaten out Ricky Bell.

Van wrote:
Since you want to target USC, well, Gary Beban beating out O.J.Simpson was an absolute joke and Archie Griffin shouldn't have beaten out Ricky Bell.

possibly, but no way Charles White was better than Billy Sims.

you line up Sims in the I and give him 30 carries a games, scary shit.

hell, David Overstreet was as good or better back than Charles White.

That's a "talent/potential" argument, not an actual production argument. O.J. out produced Beban, and so did his team. Ricky Bell, same deal.

Charles White produced, and so did his team.

If you wanna talk "talent/potential" than give back nearly every Heisman QB award from the state of Florida and the Big XII, plus all the "system" QBs: Eric Crouch, Tommy Frazier, Jason White, Heupel, Danny Weurffel, Andre Ware; the list is endless.

Oh, and Ricky Bell was also a better talent than Archie Griffin too, as was O.J. compared to Beban.

Heupel never won the Heisman, though he should have. more than White or Bradford if that makes you happy.

Sims avg'd almost 8 yards a carry. White about 5.

by even more than Texas fan standards it's a championship, 1978 OU was the only team that beat every team on their schedule.

King Crimson wrote:Heupel never won the Heisman, though he should have. more than White or Bradford if that makes you happy.

My bad. Substitute Chris Weinke or Gino Torretta for Heupel...

Sims avg'd almost 8 yards a carry. White about 5.

Lotta option backs had stupid YPC averages. White carried something more important: a national title team. (Well, the year before. '79 was a Rose Bowl winning year but not a national title year.)

I would've had no problem though with Sims winning it. None at all. He was awesome. He's my all time favorite OU player, above Thomas Lott, J.C. Watts, Jamelle Holloway and, especially, the Selmon brothers.

Can you tell I really liked the Switzer era Sooners?

KC, it's off the topic but while looking up Charles White's '79 season I happened to run across this...

1979 USC Team Players in the NFL

Marcus Allen
Chip Banks
Joey Browner
Ronnie Lott
Dennis Smith
Jeff Fisher
Bruce Matthews
Don Mosebar
Anthony Munoz
Keith Van Horne
Charles White

Holy fuck. That's a very good NFL team. That might be the single greatest CF team ever assembled, in terms of NFL production. Certainly it's right there among teams of the modern era. (They didn't do badly in college either, winning the national title in '78 and then going 11-0-1 to finish a cunt hair behind 12-0 in Bama in '79)

-Four NFL HOF-ers (Marcus Allen, Ronnie Lott, Anthony Munoz and Bruce Matthews)

-Don Mosebar was on his way to a possible NFL HOF career as one of the best centers of his generation until someone poked his eye out

-Charles White was a Pro Bowler who won an NFL league rushing title

-Chip Banks was a 5 time All Pro selection and the NFL's Defensive Rookie Of The Year

-Keith Van Horne was a 12 year member of the Chicago Bears, including the Super Bowl winning '85 team

-Joey Browner was a 6 time Pro Bowler, 3x All Pro 1st Team and a member of the NFL's 1980 All Decade Team

-Dennis Smith was a 6x Pro Bowler and a member of the Broncos' Ring Of Fame

-Jeff Fisher was the least successful NFL player of that group and still he had a four year run with the Bears before becoming the NFL's current longest reigning coach with the same team.

If that wasn't the greatest NFL/college team of the modern era I'd like to see a better one.

King Crimson wrote:Heupel never won the Heisman, though he should have. more than White or Bradford if that makes you happy.

Sims avg'd almost 8 yards a carry. White about 5.

by even more than Texas fan standards it's a championship, 1978 OU was the only team that beat every team on their schedule.

Heupel was the best QB at calling plays at the line scrimmage and making adjustment s in college that I have ever seen play the college game. That's not a homer call but a simple truth. The kid was nails at the line when making adjustments. You couldn't really prepare for the looks according to other teams DC's in the conference.

Well, yes, it is a homer call because like you said, "...best QB at calling plays at the line scrimmage and making adjustment s in college that I have ever seen play the college game."

You're an OU fan. You haven't seen nor have you followed the QBs of other teams nearly as closely as you followed Heupel at OU.

For all you know Matt Ryan or Matt Leinart (or any of countless others from other teams) were better at checking off at the line of scrimmage. I'm not saying they necessarily were or weren't but you have no idea of knowing so it's definitely a homer call to say Heupel was the best you ever saw.

Just say he was the best you saw at OU and leave it at that.

Van wrote:KC, it's off the topic but while looking up Charles White's '79 season I happened to run across this...

1979 USC Team Players in the NFL

Marcus Allen
Chip Banks
Joey Browner
Ronnie Lott
Dennis Smith
Jeff Fisher
Bruce Matthews
Don Mosebar
Anthony Munoz
Keith Van Horne
Charles White

Holy fuck. That's a very good NFL team. That might be the single greatest CF team ever assembled, in terms of NFL production. Certainly it's right there among teams of the modern era. (They didn't do badly in college either, winning the national title in '78 and then going 11-0-1 to finish a cunt hair behind 12-0 in Bama in '79)

-Four NFL HOF-ers (Marcus Allen, Ronnie Lott, Anthony Munoz and Bruce Matthews)

-Don Mosebar was on his way to a possible NFL HOF career as one of the best centers of his generation until someone poked his eye out

-Charles White was a Pro Bowler who won an NFL league rushing title

-Chip Banks was a 5 time All Pro selection and the NFL's Defensive Rookie Of The Year

-Keith Van Horne was a 12 year member of the Chicago Bears, including the Super Bowl winning '85 team

-Joey Browner was a 6 time Pro Bowler, 3x All Pro 1st Team and a member of the NFL's 1980 All Decade Team

-Dennis Smith was a 6x Pro Bowler and a member of the Broncos' Ring Of Fame

-Jeff Fisher was the least successful NFL player of that group and still he had a four year run with the Bears before becoming the NFL's current longest reigning coach with the same team.

If that wasn't the greatest NFL/college team of the modern era I'd like to see a better one.

That team went on to play in something like 65 pro bowls and would have stomped Bama by a greater margin than the team did the year before. Bryant must have gargled a lot of cum to get a part of that '78 title with USC after USC went to Birmingham and kicked the shit out of those southern pussies the way the blue coats did. I bet they burried Bryant face down with his asshole exposed so he can still service the voters that gave those Bama teams the '78 and '79 titles

link to Charles White's NFL rushing title?

Van wrote:

King Crimson wrote:Heupel never won the Heisman, though he should have. more than White or Bradford if that makes you happy.

My bad. Substitute Chris Weinke or Gino Torretta for Heupel...

Chris Weinke is exactly my point.

Van wrote: I would've had no problem though with Sims winning it. None at all. He was awesome. He's my all time favorite OU player, above Thomas Lott, J.C. Watts, Jamelle Holloway and, especially, the Selmon brothers.

Can you tell I really liked the Switzer era Sooners?

there was a lot to like.