Bill Maher vs Poptart

[Tom In VA]

Tom, I think you confuse awareness with hope.

No. I understand the difference.

[Van]

The entire history of man is one long broken record of self serving barbarism carried out.

FTFY

Organized religion is right near the top of the reasons man has killed, and it's easily the dumbest and most preventable of reasons. Greed makes more sense. Power makes more sense. Security makes more sense.

Problem is, they're all tied together. Greed and power are usually the main reasons but they've often been cloaked in religious garb, to make the endeavor palatable to the masses.

[Tom In VA]

Ascribing supernatural agency to unknown processes is the mark of an ignorant primitive.

What about ascribing supernatural origin to understood processes ?

[Tom In VA]

Greed and power are usually the main reasons but they've often been cloaked in religious garb

Agreed.

[Tom In VA]

That would be the mark of a moron.

Guilty as charged. Just because I can prattle on and on about the perioidic table, the human genome, Evolution, and the fact the Milky Way isn't the only galaxy out there and understand it - doesn't detract from my belief that there is a God and I'm not Him.

In fact my awe of God is exponentially greater today, that I understand more about those subjects, than it was as a child when I did not.

[smackaholic]

Van brings up a good point about God, if he does exist, being a sick fukk.

The thumpers of course break out the free will card.

Fukk that.

I get a little bit tired of dolts going to the "there has to be a god" card in response to miracles. We heard it when that dude turned his airbus into a ferry on the hudson river.

So, God allowed sully to land the plane and save everybody, huh?

Here's a fukking thought. Hey god, why the fukk didn't you just get them geese outta the way?

As I said earlier, I don't buy the whole god thing, but, I do get religion's role in keeping societies from falling apart....for a while anyway. I also get that it has allowed, make that encouraged, many to improve their lives and the lives of others.

So, let's say some day I see the light or, as mvscal would say, become a complete fukking idiot, which version would I pick? Islam? No fukking way. Christianity? Nope. They might be a better bunch of folks than the muzzies, but, the whole jesus thing is just flat out ridiculous. Judaism? Makes the most sense out of the big three monotheist clubs. Once you get past the whole Kosher thing. No fukking way I'm giving up bacon. I'll just rot in hell, I guess. But, I'd have a tough time getting along with the asshole liberals which seem to flock to reformed synagogues. Maybe I'll just start a reformed reformed sect. Good old time jew values with a pig roast social every summer.

As for the eastern religions, I'd have to read up a little and check out there benefits package before making a decision.

[Van]

Chemistry, geology, biology, astronomy and all these other tools we use to understand the world around us do not point to supreme being or lack thereof.

Unfortunately all those sciences are still in their nascent stages. They are not infallible and they have severe limitations. They are not yet fit to pass judgement on the question of divinity. They may never be fit to pass such judgements.

God might simply show up for the halftime of next year's Super Bowl, bumping Kanye West.

That's what a benevolent god would do, anyway.

It wouldn't matter that science was previously unable to measure him or prove his existence, not if he suddenly came down and obviated all our previous knowledge.

They point to processes which fall into two categories: understood and unknown. Ascribing supernatural agency to unknown processes is the mark of an ignorant primitive.

Yep. It's equally unwise to claim certainty regarding things about which you couldn't possibly have any knowledge. Man's limited knowledge does not make for the ideal platform of such intellectual arrogance.

Your "god" bullshit doesn't even enter into the equation. If you have no evidence of God then you really have quite literally nothing to talk about.

Got it?

Yep.

Unfortunatley, it works both ways. The atheist relies on modern science, which is a laughablely malleable and imperfect tool even when describing concrete events here on earth. Using modern science as a means of supporting a stance on divinity is just the height of turning a blind eye to the many follies of science down through the years.

The bottom line is neither side has any concrete evidence so neither side ought to be claiming any certitude. When all is said and done either side could be proven wrong and nothing either side believes right now will've had any bearing on the final outcome.

[Tom In VA]

Nice post Van

[Van]

You can stamp your feet and say all the evidence supports the idea that there is no such thing as god

That isn't how logic or reason works. You, like Tom, are backwards. Evidence does not and cannot point to a void. With evidence you have...something. Without it, you have nothing.

With evidence you may have something but you don't necessariily have the answer. No conclusive evidence has currently been provided as to the question of divinity. The scientific community lacks clues to solve the case. They lack the equivalent of clues to even know whether a crime might've been committed.

Doesn't mean the crime wasn't committed, just because they don't yet know about it. Using the sum total of mankind's scientific knowledge acquired by the year 2009 to make final pronouncements on spiritual matters is every bit as laughable now as it was in the Bronze Age.

[smackaholic]

God might simply show up for the halftime of next year's Super Bowl, bumping Kanye West.

How 'bout he vaporizes Kanye with a lightning bolt, brings SRV and hendrix back. They put on a 3 hour halftime show. Then god says all right "ARE YOU READY FOR SOME FOOTBALL!!!!!!!" Then he informs the refs that we are going back to the 1964 NFL rules book. Roughing the passer, kicker, holder etc.... are not only allowed, they are encouraged because it's fukking football for christ's sake. Then midway through the 3rd quarter when some fukking WR does his little dance in the endzone after a score, he breaks out another lightning bolt and smites the fukk outta him. He then quotes jim brown about acting like you been there (the end zone) before. In the post game ceremonies Jim Brown is made an official saint. The Saints are informed that they must change their name because they suck too badly to be saints.

[Tom In VA]

Nice visual smackoholic.

But, growing up in Catholic schools, it seems most Saints got that way because they were slaughtered AND anyone entering into heaven - i.e. DEAD - is considered a Saint.

So, I would deem the name of the team as appropriate.

[smackaholic]

good point, Tom.

[Van]

smackie, I'd be all for all that shit, with the exception of the stuff about Jim Brown. A truly cool and benevolent god would wind back the clock and he'd stick Brown back in uniform and he'd never let Brown exist anywhere but on the gridiron. A truly benevolent god would've made Brown a deaf mute, sparing us decades of Brown's self serving racial flatulence.

[Tom In VA]

1. That is solely based on an undocumented quote from Hawking. What better way to draw attention to yourself than to misquote or outright lie about a quote from a dead pope.

2. "Doesn't want" - assumes Pope John Paul is still alive. He is not. IF Hawking is telling the truth, it should read "didn't want".

[smackaholic]

smackie, I'd be all for all that shit, with the exception of the stuff about Jim Brown. A truly cool and benevolent god would wind back the clock and he'd stick Brown back in uniform and he'd never let Brown exist anywhere but on the gridiron. A truly benevolent god would've made Brown a deaf mute, sparing us decades of Brown's self serving racial flatulence.

At a minimum, he woulda told jim to get his black ass back out on the field where he belonged. He could make all the movies he wanted when he retired.

He was such a physical freak of nature that he surely could have played till at least the late 70s. This would have given me the opportunity to watch him play live.

[Van]

Well, to be fair, that was an old pope. Things change. The infallible church with its infallible popes change their mind on world shaping edicts all the time.

[smackaholic]

I just want to know when, if ever, the pope is gonna be seen in a non silly looking hat?

A really worn out red sox cap would be kinda cool.

[Van]

I have nothing, and neither do you. No one does, in either direction. It's not a measurable subject, an evidence based subject, so nobody can make any claims on divinity with any degree of certainty. That's the point.

[Van]

I have nothing,

So what, exactly, is it that makes you believe that there might be a God?

Dunno. It probably goes back to that primitive ape thing. I certainly can't explain the universe and anyone's role in it to my own satisfaction so I leave the question open.

Believe me, I don't enjoy it. I'd rather not be agnostic. I'd much rather be atheist or religious. There's a lot more serenity to be found in either Faith.

Spare me the "it isn't an evidence based subject" horseshit. Of course it is.

Nonsense. Complete nonsense. Science has no ability to tackle such a subject, any more than they had the ability two thousand years ago. Science has not progressed to the point of being able to know the unknowable.

A being allegedly able to manipulate matter and energy to the degree necessary to create the entire universe most certainly can be quantified and measured by science.

It could, if it were a being known to science, working within physical parameters known to science. Obviously science isn't up to speed on whatever it is and however it works, if indeed it does exist.

Again, just because modern science hasn't yet confirmed something doesn't mean that something doesn't exist. In another thousand years science will have confirmed and dispelled countless things we can't currently imagine and still they'll only be scratching the surface.

Imagine the arguments you would've made in Caesar's time. What in the hell makes you think your current concept of immutable reality won't seem equally ludicrous to the Mvscal of 4009?

Mvscal, you're way too bright to play this game. A large part of being knowledgeable is knowing that there's a lot you simply don't know. The way you're attempting to anthropomorphize the concept of god so that it fits into mankind's current and extremely limited scientific reality is beneath your usual debate acumen.

Science does not yet have all the answers and this question is simply one of millions to which they don't have an answer.

And for all that you may end up being correct. There may be no god, in which case we'll never find out. You may however end up being incorrect and then nothing you ever felt and nothing you ever learned and nothing you ever concluded will have mattered.

[Van]

Sam, I don't know about you but I can only come up with two ways...

-Some "god" force did it. Maybe he designed evolution?

-It happened entirely by coincidence, minus any help from a "god" force, via the "Big Bang Theory" or some other equally unsatisfying theoretical occurrence. I'd want to know what was there before the fucking explosion occurred? How did the material that exploded come to exist? Where did it all begin and what was there before it began?

Good luck with that. We can't even figure out a way to get Bama to quit scheduling Chattanooga yet we're supposed to come up with these answers?

Dunno 'bout you but I'll settle for a return to a stable economy and a half way decent leveling of the playing field in BTPCF. I won't really spend much time bothering myself over those large, unanswerable "origins of the universe" questions.

[poptart]

Christ or God needs to come down and show themselves to me, in no uncertain terms, before I'll truly believe.

Python wrote in the Theology Forum ...

So all you guys want is proof? I swear, God could come down to Earth in human form and perform miracles in front of thousands of people, and some of you still wouldn't believe anything.

Oh wait, that already happened.

[LTS TRN 2]

Uh...why is this subject being chased around the snowed-in cabin like a lil' sow?

Why not...apply some of this earnest inquiry towards a more demonstrable, arguable, and fun subject that entails all of the factors in play so far: "faith," "belief," "evidence," "humans scared into shitless subservience" and of course "anal probes." Yes, I'm talking about unexplained observances of apparently extraterrestrial crafts--and occasionally the operators of those crafts.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl= ... a=N&tab=iv#




Well, why not? If you're actually willing to seriously think about and type out statements on a subject as dreary and dead in the water as the existence of religious "gods," well why not apply those same healthy efforts of inquiry and gnawing curiosity towards an equally intriguing and mysterious subject--which, unlike the various world religions, actually has untold thousands of modern day witnesses (including all sorts of reputable air force pilots, navy captains, police, taxidermists, etc.) demanding that you consider their experiences.

Go ahead, apply your skepticism and critical faculties, your gut feelings and hunches, your personal experiences to the wide range of claimants and reports. You decide which are just fakes and which might be real. Why not?

Surely it's all too boring just to remind the religious that their faith is just an emotional handrail, and similarly how tedious to be lectured to by a Christer.

But anyone who claims "bullshit" or "true" concerning UFO's needs to at least do some research, preferably with an open mind. Good luck :wink:

[Tom In VA]

I'm open to the probability of life on other planets. Including advanced civilizations.

I'm keenly AWARE of sightings, oddities and other phenomena that point to the possibility of being so.
I'm keenly HOPING that they all look like Jessica Alba and are planning a mass abduction of all males to be used as sex slaves.

My door is unlocked and my wife wouldn't miss me. I'm ready to serve.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

I'm open to the probability of life on other planets. Including advanced civilizations.

I'm keenly AWARE of sightings, oddities and other phenomena that point to the possibility of being so.
I'm keenly HOPING that they all look like Jessica Alba and are planning a mass abduction of all males to be used as sex slaves.

My door is unlocked and my wife wouldn't miss me. I'm ready to serve.

If it's the two of us running to the tractor beam, you will have to fight me for it.

[Van]

Believe me, I don't enjoy it. I'd rather not be agnostic. I'd much rather be atheist or religious. There's a lot more serenity to be found in either Faith.

Atheism isn't based on Faith and if you honestly believe that you truly are a fucking idiot.

I know what the word "faith" means. You're truly a fucking idiot if you argue that atheism isn't a faith based belief.

It's not a field of factual study. It's not a science.

Being louder and more abrasive won't change a thing either. You still don't know what the fucking word means and how it applies to your own belief system.

You're merely being loudly and willfully ignorant, without the capacity of humility to admit that you don't and can't know everything.

You categorically reject all cultural mythology except for Judaic mythology which you just don't know about.

Why are you separating Judaic mythology? You would've been more correct in saying I categorically reject all mythology, period. I don't exclude Judaic mythology.

Why would I? It's mythology. It's the study of myths. Myths aren't real; Judaic ones included.

Why? Because you are an intellectually lazy slob.

An intellectually lazy slob would make the wild ass assertion you just made, about my beliefs of Judaic mythology. You don't even know what the fuck you're talking about and still you deign to judge what I believe.

Science has no ability to tackle such a subject,

The reason being that there is nothing to tackle.

You're an idiot. Science also hasn't tackled a thousand other questions of the universe; questions they may tackle a thousand years from now; questions they may never tackle. Earth's scientists aren't all knowing and they never will be.

Is today's knowledge and today's scientific agenda all that exists, and all that will ever exist? I sure as fuck hope not.

I don't think I've ever seen you make such moronic arguments before.

Again, just because modern science hasn't yet confirmed something doesn't mean that something doesn't exist.

Is that remark supposed to have some relevance?

To someone who apparently thinks we already have the answers to the universe, based on the limited science of 2009? Apparently not.

Don't think about such things. Wouldn't want you to strain yourself or anything. Better to remain cluelessly dogmatic.

Imagine the argument you'd be making in Christ's time. What in the hell makes you think your current concent of immutable reality won't seem equally ludicrous to the Mvscal of 3009?

I didn't know I had a concept of "immutable reality" (whatever that means) or is this just the 'fling shit against the wall and hope something sticks' technique of I don't know what I'm talking about?

Immutable=unchangeable
Reality=state of being real

Your current immutable reality is that god does not exist, based on the science of 2009. Your immutable reality in Caesar's time would seem stupid and primitive to you now. Your immutable reality in another thousand years might tell you that your immmutable reality in 2009 was stupid and primitive.

That's why it's usually a good idea to keep somewhat of an open mind, especially about shit you can't begin to know.

A large part of acquiring knowledge is knowing that there's a lot you simply don't know.

And what you don't know must be God, right? Good job remaining an ignorant, superstitious primitive.

Must be? Of course not. If I felt that way I wouldn't be agnostic. I'd be willing to say I firmly believe.

Might be? Welcome to agnosticism.

Either way we're both ignorant. Ignorant is all anyone can be on this topic. The agnostic simply admits he doesn't know, because he can't possibly know. You're too intellectually egotistical to admit you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. You feel the need to take a firm stance, same as you would've during Caesar's time. You don't let the fact that you haven't a clue get in your way.

The way you're attempting to anthropomorphize the concept of god

Your problem is that you haven't given't the subject any thought at all.

Judging by how you simply went with the pat, easy answer and then you slammed the door I'd say it's pretty obvious I've given it a lot more thought than you have. You accept the pat, easy answer and then you bray loudly about it. Same as you would've in Caesar's time. I accept the pat, easy answer and still I continue to question it.

If "God" made the universe, "God" must be part of the universe. Creation then becomes a physical task that had to have been accomplished by physical means. I view it as an engineering problem rather than a meaningless theological circle jerk.

That's because viewing it as an engineering problem is all you're capable of doing in this instance. It provides you with a pat, easy answer, and you're finished. You can resume calling people dumbfucks.

Attempting to apply rote engineering solutions to spiritual questions is rather retarded.

Somewhere out there, there must be a being capable of manipulating matter and energy in ways we don't understand...assuming of course it isn't tits up by now.

Must be? Not according to me. I don't know. Neither do you.

Oh, yes that's right. God is immortal and omniscient.

If he exists, he might be. He might also be a total dick, as I alluded to before. He also may not exist at all, which is the most likely bet, at least according to mankind's limited ability to hazard a guess on such a question.

Speaking in absolutes when the subject is unknowable goes beyond mere hubris; it's pure narcissism.

If someone wishes to say, "I don't believe god exists, 'cause his existence makes no sense to me. I see no evidence of it," I would accept that and I would likely agree with him to boot.

If someone says, "I know for a fact that god doesn't exist, because science has found no evidence of his existence," well, that guy is far worse than merely being a lazy thinker; he's an absolute idiot.

[Van]

Christ or God needs to come down and show themselves to me, in no uncertain terms, before I'll truly believe.

Python wrote in the Theology Forum ...

So all you guys want is proof? I swear, God could come down to Earth in human form and perform miracles in front of thousands of people, and some of you still wouldn't believe anything.
Oh wait, that already happened.

I don't know that it already happened. Just because the bible said it happened doesn't prove it happened.

Pop, you made the argument that the devotion of Christ's followers proves his divinity. Well, what about the thousands of other people Christ encountered during his lifetime? The vast majority of the people Christ encountered during his lifetime didn't become apostles of Christ The Deity. They simply went on about their daily lives and they certainly didn't dedicate their lives to this deity in the flesh walking in their midst.

Looking at the numbers of those who joined up with him compared to those who didn't, one might easily assume that his case for being divine wasn't all that compelling. These people saw the guy, first hand. They heard him speak. They watched him saw chicks in half and then have them pop back out of the box, unharmed.

These people weren't impressed, and they're the majority of the people who witnessed his act first hand.

If Christ or God wants my vote they're going to have to come and visit me, first hand. I need more than a mythological tale from two thousand years ago, written and re-written by people who never even met the guy.

I know if I were god or I were Christ I wouldn't simply show up during the dawn of man's existence and call it good. No, I'd check back in with 'em periodically, letting 'em know I'm still there and I've still got their back.

The world now has more people than ever. We now have the internet too. Now would be a good time for Christ or god to schedule themselves some prime time network face time. We've got fucking Obama and Paris Hilton on tv and youtube every damn day. It's time for god to deliver an updated State Of The Universe address.

God. Not some German pope. Not some whacked out ayatollah. Not some other fat guy in a primitive's robes.

God, himself. Show yourself. Remove all doubt. Take care of your children. Heal this fucking planet.

[War Wagon]

The bottom line is neither side has any concrete evidence so neither side ought to be claiming any certitude. When all is said and done either side could be proven wrong and nothing either side believes right now will've had any bearing on the final outcome.

The "final outcome" is that we're human flesh and these bodies are destined to become worm food. Some folks have a problem with that being the final outcome and choose to believe that we live on in spirit. Some don't.

Either way, no body will ever really know what, if anything, happens after we're dead. In the meantime, this subject will be debated ad nauseum yet nobody will ever change their core beliefs. After a certain age, you either believe or you don't and won't be convinced otherwise.

That's why I gave up on these type of discussions some time ago. Everybody so certain that they are right and that you'd have to be a dumbfuck to believe differently... just a gigantic waste of effort. I've gotten to the point where I really don't care what anyone else believes and will take 88's advice.

Heavy drinking and porn, that's the ticket.

[Van]

WW, dammit, I don't drink. Should I double up on porn?

[War Wagon]

Van

If you don't drink, I suggest you start. Doubling up on porn is a physical impossibility.

This world isn't a figment of our imagination. So how did it come to be?

So how did it come to be? I don't think I've ever seen you explain that.

Did YOU create the world, mv?

[Van]

You most certainly do not exclude Judaic mythology. If you did, you would be an atheist not an agnostic. You accept the possibility of the Hebrew divinity. Therefore your claim to have rejected Judaic is laughable nonsense.

That's just more stupidity. You're just making shit up now. I don't limit my agnosticism to the possibility of a Hebrew god. I accept the possibility of divinity, period. Hebrew divinity, Islamic divinity, Buddhist divinity, Inuit divinity...you name it. I suspect they're all fucking bat shit crazy but I also concede they may all be right, at least insofar as there may be a god for all of them. If there is a god he sure as fuck isn't only a Judaic god. He's everyone's god or he's nobody's god.

I'm agnostic because I don't know if god exists. Not a Judaic god; any god. I don't pick and choose. God either exists or god doesn't exist.

This is the sloppiest performance I've ever seen from you. Yeah, you're right there with your usual name calling and your usual vitriol but you're just killing yourself here with all these lazy, sloppy errors. Fuck, at least make some effort to match your accusations to the person you're accusing.

[smackaholic]

Van

If you don't drink, I suggest you start. Doubling up on porn is a physical impossibility.

what he ^^^ said.

One thing though. It should be porn then drinking. Well, you could do a little drinking, porn, then a lot more drinking.

Just don't need to pass out in the middle of rubbing one out. Really not the best way for the OL to find you.

[KC Scott]

Religion is based on fear of the unknown; Specfically Death
It evolved with different stories and different charachters throughout recorded history.

All of them share one basic concept - Mine is right and yours is Wrong.
Quite a few were more than willing to kill or Die to inflict this point of view on others

The Thumpers in this thread don't "get" why there is such a backlash?

It's really simple - beacuse they set in judgement of anyone not sharing their belief,
They want to control that individual freedoms of all.

Poptart and I had this argument before - he'll say he doesn't "judge" any of us.
Yet he'll readily say those who don't believe as he does are going to Hell (in his mind)
So how can you opine that someone is going to Hell but not set in judgement of them?

You can't.

So the religous want to control what your kids are taught (or not taught) in schools.
They want to control the methods of contraception, or termination of prgenancy.
They want to inhibit the advancements of biotechnology in stem cell research.
They want to limit your ability to gamble, drink or select a partner of your choosing.

Even when it doesn't directly involve them.

And yet they wonder why there's a backlash?

[Van]

I accept the possibility of divinity, period. Hebrew divinity, Islamic divinity, Buddhist divinity, Inuit divinity...you name it.

But not Greek or Norse divinity, right?

Greek and Norse mythology, as opposed to modern day Greek and Norse religious beliefs? Yeah, I'll freely admit that I'm not the least bit uncertain about the truth in mythology, regardless of whose mythology: It's false. I already said that. I don't believe in pan theism mythology.

You're spinning and backpedalling now.

Not even a little. I said before that I don't believe in anybody's mythology and I say it again now.

You're spinning by not copping to the fact that twice now you've attempted to label my beliefs and twice you've gotten them completely wrong.

Yeah, you're right there with your usual name calling and your usual vitriol but you're just killing yourself here with all these lazy, sloppy errors.

You've been pinned to that mat with your hypocritical, intellectually vacuous defense of "agnosticism."

Hardly. You've mislabeled "faith" and "agnosticism." You've also staked your entire argument on a lack of scientific proof. You haven't addressed the fact that your dogmatic beliefs are purely based on the scientific knowledge of the time in which you live; knowledge which will doubtless be considered outdated and silly to the Mvscal of 3009. You've even attempted to apply an engineering solution to a spiritual concept.

You've failed, miserably. You flat out sucked in this debate and I can't recall many others times when I could say that.

[Dinsdale]

nor do I have any idea how I got here.

Oh, I do.


Your Dad/Uncle got together with your Mom/sister...

and the rest is messageboard history.

[Dinsdale]

BTW-without reading the entirety of this thread (I'll save it for when I'm really hard up for entertainment)...

Poptart KHOA every time this discussion comes up (about twice a week, it seems).

It always comes down to "this guy and this guy gave his life/liberty/whatnot" because he believe in the divinity of Jesus, and there were X number of witnesses...


Sorry, Pop. You're disingenuous. If that was truly your basis for your faith, Islam has several times the eyewitness "cred" and all of the other factors you cite for your beliefs...

And it ain't even a close race.


BUT... you weren't raised Muslim. You were raised christian, although the "righteous evidence" is CLEARLY on the side of the Muslims.


Light coming on yet, Pop?


I doubt it -- it's the nature of "faith"... whatever faith you were born with, it's a closed book... regardless whether every scrap of "evidence" you bring up favors the "other guys."

[KC Scott]

Greek and Norse mythology, as opposed to modern day Greek and Norse religious beliefs? Yeah, I'll freely admit that I'm not the least bit uncertain about the truth in mythology, regardless of whose mythology: It's false.

Yea, but if we were to celebrity death match them, I'm calling Thor

[Shoalzie]

nor do I have any idea how I got here.

Oh, I do.


Your Dad/Uncle got together with your Mom/sister...

and the rest is messageboard history.

If you believe in that Adam & Eve stuff...we're all related in some fashion, mon ami.

[Dinsdale]

If you believe in that Adam & Eve stuff...we're all related in some fashion

Uhm, if you believe in the all-but-proven fact of evolution and emigration from Africa...

we're all related, too.

But don't tell the thumpers that the DNA science the Lord blessed us with PROVES that... it makes their head explode.

Obviously, DNA science is the work of Satan.

[Van]

Mvscal, take your engineering concept and describe how the universe came into being. When and how did it begin? What was there before it began? Are there boundaries? If so, where are its boundaries? What comprises its boundaries? What's beyond those boundaries? Where and how did matter originate?

Use all the science you can source. Use your own thoughts. Use a Magic 8 ball. Do it in a loud, abrasive voice, even. Try to sound really certain in your beliefs. Sell the fuck out of it. Poptart it, even, only in a really obnoxious The Ultimate Warrior manner.

Go ahead and flail away. See if you can flail as badly with those basic engineering questions as you've flailed here with basic logic and definitions. Then, when you're finished, and you've accomplished nothing more than scaring the neighbors cats with your loud remonstrations, kindly fuck off. Soon enough the next debate about guns and warfare will come up and you'll get to call people names, be funny and otherwise redeem yourself.

[KC Scott]

Mvscal, take your engineering concept and describe how the universe came into being. When and how did it begin? What was there before it began? Are there boundaries? If so, where are its boundaries? What comprises its boundaries? What's beyond those boundaries? Where and how did matter originate?

Can I ask if you actually contemplate this?

If so - Why?

I'm always amazed at how much time and energy is spent thinking about where you came from as opposed to where your going during this life

Better to worry about the things you can control, than those you can't