T1B

I guess Cappy doesn't like tailgating........He did allow me to see some pretty cool stuff though....Oh wait, you're still bitter over that aren't you? :doh:

I think that Weis has proven that anyone can be a successful recruiter if they work their ass off at it. I don't doubt Gruden would work tirelessly at it when he needed to.

He has interest, specifically and only for Notre Dame. It's one of the worst kept secrets among the coaching ranks.

That's my only concern with Gruden: recruiting. It'll end up being what he's worst at, or best at. If he just can't be bothered to go sit on some dumbfuck's couch to shill for ND to dumbfuck's gravy training in-laws, he'll fail. If he's willing and even eager to do it, he'll be an absolute monster of a recruiter, and ND will quickly rejoin the ranks of the elite.

In the end, an elite program is all about sustained excellence in recruiting. All these coaches know Xs and Os. Great players still make great coaches, and Gruden has the ability to bring great players to ND. He also has the ability to motivate them and get them to play hard.

Gruden will be a zero or a jackpot, with no in-between. If he really wants the ND job, I'm leaning towards the jackpot bet. I'd bet Mgo's favorite beer stein that Gruden would have ND in a BCS bowl game within two seasons, and he'd keep them there for at least a few years.

Funny that Stewart Mandel (Northwestern grad) didn't call Fitzgerald on his line of bullshit that they've been consistently winning since 1995. This is his idea of "consistently winning":

Northwestern's records since 1995

-1995 record 10-2
-1996 record 9-3
-1997 record 5-7
-1998 record 3-9
-1999 record 3-8
-2000 record 8-4
-2001 record 4-7
-2002 record 3-9
-2003 record 6-7
-2004 record 6-6
-2005 record 7-5
-2006 record 4-8
-2007 record 6-6
-2008 record 9-4

83-85

Notre Dame in the same time frame:

-1995 record 9-3
-1996 record 8-3
-1997 record 7-6
-1998 record 9-3
-1999 record 5-7
-2000 record 9-3
-2001 record 5-6
-2002 record 10-3
-2003 record 5-7
-2004 record 6-6
-2005 record 9-3
-2006 record 10-3
-2007 record 3-9
-2008 record 7-6

102-68

Great call, Pat.

Mace,

It's an outright lie that any self respecting journalist would either call the coach out on, or follow it up in his story with comparable records. I would expect a coach not to make such a stupid fucking statement. That quote will be run all over, and nothing will be there to refute it. Recruits won't call him out on it, neither will opposing coaches who will use it to negatively recruit against ND. Mandle is a fucking idiot.

I'm with Mgo on this one. I'm still having trouble seeing how Gruden would be the best fit for ND. The biggest problems I have with Gruden are that he never was a head coach at the college level, and that he hasn't coached at the college level at all since 1991. Not to insult anyone's intelligence, but here are what I see as potential problem areas for Gruden, based on the difference between college coaching and pro coaching:

1. Recruiting: The most obvious difference, quite possibly, but certainly not the only one or, for my money, even the most important one. Weis proved that anyone can learn to recruit at ND if they're willing to work hard at it. I'm not quite sure how Gruden feels about kissing the butts of 17 and 18-year-olds at this point in his career, but if that's an issue, I don't think he'd even seriously consider the job in the first place. This is probably the least of my worries for that reason alone.

2. Player development: When yu coach in the pros, the player is pretty much a finished product when you get him. That's not the case at the college level. How many true freshmen step in and make a significant contribution immediately? 1-2 per class, if you're lucky? And for the most part, those players play positions which translate better in the jump from high school to college (e.g., RB).

3. Time spent with players: In the NFL, you're limited only by the law of diminishing returns, so you can spend considerable time with the players as long as you're including activities other than practice (game film, team meetings, position meetings, etc.). In BTPCF, the NCAA has rules limiting the amount of time you can spend with players. The players also have other obligations (academics being one).

4. Pressure to win: There's pressure to win in the NFL, of course, but it's a different kind of pressure. Nobody expects you to win every game, just enough to get to the playoffs. Go 12-4 every season in the NFL, and you're on your way to Canton. Go 9-3 every year at ND, and you're on your way to the unemployment line in 3-5 years.

5. Where Gruden is now: A lot of the Gruden speculation is, I think, based on what happened/didn't happen in 2001. This is 2009, however. I don't think things are the same. Gruden was never a serious candidate for the ND job in '04. Today, he's an analyst for MNF. That job pays comparably to what he'd get at ND, and I daresay it's a considerably easier job. Unless he really wants the ND job, I don't see him leaving ESPN under those circumstances. If he still has the bug to get back into coaching, there will be a number of NFL jobs that open up after this season, most of whom would seriously consider him if he expressed interest. Gruden is now 18 years removed from his most recent college coaching experience (as opposed to 10 years in 2001), and at this point he's a pro coach. Maybe that's not what he set out to be, but it is what he has become.

6. Should ND hire Gruden?: Yes, Gruden has won a Super Bowl, which puts him in elite company. At the same time, that, standing alone, wasn't enough to save his job at Tampa Bay, and standing alone, it shouldn't be enough to get him hired at ND. The lack of experience at the college level, as well as considerable time that has elapsed since his most recent college coaching job. imho more than outweigh the positives Gruden brings to the table. Not to mention that these rumors, as pertain to ND, are nothing new. Back when I was in college (Faust years), there were rumors that, among others, Don Shula, Bill Walsh and Dick Vermeil would replace Faust. Of course, none of those happened.

Killian wrote:He has interest, specifically and only for Notre Dame. It's one of the worst kept secrets among the coaching ranks.

I could be wrong about this, but I heard he had interest in the tOSU job right around the time they hired Sweater Vest.

How many years had it been since Pete Carroll coached in college, when he took the USC job?

Eighteen.

It's not a question of whether it can be done, it's a question of what's the smartest possible move. Like I said, Pete Carroll was a diamond in the rough. I don't think you'll see that duplicated too often. Hiring a guy with zero cfb head coaching experience, and 18 years removed from the environment at any capacity, is not the smartest possible move. Could it pay off? It could. Should ND risk it? I don't think so.

It's funny because I was talking to a friend of mine last night who's very big with SC, the wearesc.com website, Gary P etc...over there and he said, "The guy I'm most scared of is Gruden."

The guy seems to be so competitive that he'll refuse to fail. If he does it won't be for lack of effort. Charlie has recruited very well and he'd never done it before. CW's biggest problem is that he was never a head coach. Out all the people I've spoken with about going from being an asst. to head coach their biggest transition is the paperwork, organizational stuff, etc......Coaching is coaching. Coaches can get out on the recruiting trail and make it happen. I think Gruden will make it happen.

Funny that Stewart Mandel (Northwestern grad) didn't call Fitzgerald on his line of bullshit that they've been consistently winning since 1995. This is his idea of "consistently winning":

Fitzgerald probably meant consistently winning.........against Iowa. God damn that's fucking depressing. They get so fucking lucky against us.

Hiring a guy with zero cfb head coaching experience, and 18 years removed from the environment at any capacity, is not the smartest possible move. Could it pay off? It could. Should ND risk it? I don't think so.

Ferentz was out of the college game for 10 years and had never been a head coach at this level. Well, unless you want to count 1-AA Maine but that might as well be High school.

Gruden would be an absolute slam dunk hire for Notre Dame. To heck with him having no recruiting/CFB experience. Dude is one of the best football coaches there are and he WILL recruit well. He's got the work ethic and the personality. He's a coherent Ron Zook with actual coaching ability. I give Notre Dame a 10% chance of hiring him, however. NFL teams will come calling and it's a rarity to see a coach take ANY college job of an NFL gig. I'd be disappointed to see Chucky go to Notre Dame because he's one of my favorite coaches. Tampa Bay should be ashamed of themselves for canning him. They gave him shit players for the last 7 years and he still got them to the playoffs almost every year. They overachieved most years after the won the Super Bowl.

I just don't buy the whole "he can't coach in the college game because he has no experience". Meh. It's college football. It's not really about coaching anyways. 85% of it is recruiting, which he will recruit. 12% is player development. If you can't recruit well (like at Iowa), it's more like 25% recruiting, 70% player development. The rest is actual game management skills. That's why college coaches never make it in the NFL, because they aren't real football coaches. They're just guys that know how to slick talk their way to bringing in great talent. Guys like Urban Meyer, the NFL wouldn't EVER consider them for gigs. You actually have to coach in the NFL. College coaches (many of the top ones, at least) are barely even coaches.

TheJON wrote:85% of it is recruiting, . . . 12% is player development.

NOJ is right on the money, yet again.

Sin,

Lax, the best thing I can tell you is I agree with your SC buddy. As a USC fan, I'd fear what ND would become with Gruden there much more than I'd fear them with with Brian Kelly or some mid-major coach.

With Gruden there, I'd fear them becoming ND again, or damn close to it.

Can someone check the temperature in Hell? I agree with everything JON said.

TheJON wrote:

Funny that Stewart Mandel (Northwestern grad) didn't call Fitzgerald on his line of bullshit that they've been consistently winning since 1995. This is his idea of "consistently winning":

Fitzgerald probably meant consistently winning.........against Iowa. God damn that's fucking depressing. They get so fucking lucky against us.

Hiring a guy with zero cfb head coaching experience, and 18 years removed from the environment at any capacity, is not the smartest possible move. Could it pay off? It could. Should ND risk it? I don't think so.

Ferentz was out of the college game for 10 years and had never been a head coach at this level. Well, unless you want to count 1-AA Maine but that might as well be High school.

Gruden would be an absolute slam dunk hire for Notre Dame. To heck with him having no recruiting/CFB experience. Dude is one of the best football coaches there are and he WILL recruit well. He's got the work ethic and the personality. He's a coherent Ron Zook with actual coaching ability. I give Notre Dame a 10% chance of hiring him, however. NFL teams will come calling and it's a rarity to see a coach take ANY college job of an NFL gig. I'd be disappointed to see Chucky go to Notre Dame because he's one of my favorite coaches. Tampa Bay should be ashamed of themselves for canning him. They gave him shit players for the last 7 years and he still got them to the playoffs almost every year. They overachieved most years after the won the Super Bowl.

I just don't buy the whole "he can't coach in the college game because he has no experience". Meh. It's college football. It's not really about coaching anyways. 85% of it is recruiting, which he will recruit. 12% is player development. If you can't recruit well (like at Iowa), it's more like 25% recruiting, 70% player development. The rest is actual game management skills. That's why college coaches never make it in the NFL, because they aren't real football coaches. They're just guys that know how to slick talk their way to bringing in great talent. Guys like Urban Meyer, the NFL wouldn't EVER consider them for gigs. You actually have to coach in the NFL. College coaches (many of the top ones, at least) are barely even coaches.

Urban is just a slickster? Do you realize he developed his own offense? That is why his spread-option O has worked consistently despite repeatedly losing OC's. If Urban was mainly a recruiter how'd he go out and win at Bowling Green and Utah right off the bat? Dude can flat-out coach.

^Exactly. But this has been pounded into JON's dome before, and he refuses to acknowledge any of it. All the guy does is win, everywhere and anywhere, yet JON believes he's a shit coach.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:^Exactly. But this has been pounded into JON's dome before, and he refuses to acknowledge any of it. All the guy does is win, everywhere and anywhere, yet JON believes he's a shit coach.

eh, it's consistent with what jon's saying, that a good cf coach is someone who can recruit players so good he can't help but win, whereas the nfl requires that a good coach be more of a tactician regardless of personnel.

the inconsistency comes in as soon as he goes off on his zook rant.

as a Vandy grad, i can tell you that "winning" means the diff between 4 W's and 5. it's a whole different nomenclature.

Saw this posted on ND Nation. Depressing as hell, but it needs to be said:

The Weis Fact Sheet
posted by The Rock
Regretfully, we're assembling another fact sheet. Something we could have easily done a year ago, but we waited until the end was beyond doubt. Please email us with any factual errors.

•Under .500 over the last 3 seasons
•Against teams with winning records: Weis 8-19 (.296) Faust 12-23 (.343) Willingham 12-15 (.444) Davie 18-22 (.450)
•0 wins against teams finishing in the top 10 of any of the major polls.
•0 wins over a team with less than 4 losses
•1 (1-13) win against teams finishing in the Top 25
•Worst two year stretch in Notre Dame history (10-15)
•First coach to lose to Navy since 1963 (twice)
•First time in 73 years (the first year of polling) that an unranked Navy team defeated a ranked Notre Dame team
•Worst loss to a service academy in 44 years (blown out by Air Force)
•First coach in Notre Dame history to lose to an eight-loss team (Syracuse 2008)
•0-5 against USC
•Average margin of defeat against USC: 19.8 ppg
•The worst loss to any SC team (38 points largest margin of victory in the 79-game history of rivalry)
•Losing records to Boston College: 1-2, Michigan: 2-3 and Michigan State: 2-3
•Losses by 20 points or more: 8
•More shutout losses: 3 (Boston College, USC, Michigan) in four years than Notre Dame had from 1965-2001
•First 9-loss season in school history
•First 0-4 start ever
•First 0-5 start ever
•Has lost to more teams that finished outside the top 50 (MSU 2007, Purdue 2007, GT 2007, Navy 2007, Syracuse 2008) than Willingham, Davie and Faust… combined (5-4) (Note: likely to extend this to seven teams with Michigan and Navy this year)
•Last overall offense in the country in 2007
•Last overall in yards per play in 2007
•Last overall in yards per game in 2007
•Lowest average yardage in the history of Notre Dame football in 2007
•Worst rushing team in ND history in 2007
•Lost to Navy, USC and Michigan in the same year… twice
•Set an NCAA record (58) for most sacks allowed in a season in 2007
•Notre Dame finished 90th in the country in the 2007 Sagarin ratings… below Richmond, North Dakota State, Delaware, Navy, Florida Atlantic, James Madison and Wofford.
•3-16 record since 2007 against teams that finished with a winning record
•Only coach in ND history to coach for five years and not score 50 points in a game (56 other teams topped 50 points during Weis’s tenure)
•Weis has given up 40+ points in a loss 6 times, 30+ in a loss 19 times
•Currently has the 84th ranked defense in the country
•Will miss the BCS three straight years (note: in fairness, ND missed the Bowl Alliance/BCS for three straight years under Davie, and the BCS for three straight years under Willingham, although ND probably would've had a BCS bid in 2002 had today's rules been in effect back then)
•No BCS wins in five years of coaching

As someone else commented, only eight wins vs. teams that finished the season with a winning record, and three of those came against Navy:

Michigan (7-5) 2005
Navy (8-4) 2005
Georgia Tech (9-5) 2006
Penn St (9-4) 2006
Purdue (8-6) 2006
UCLA (7-6) 2006
Navy (9-4) 2006
Navy (8-5) 2008

In fairness, Weis probably will be able to add at least 2-3 teams to that list after this season (Nevada, Fredo, and possibly the winner of the Sparty-Purdue game, if that team wins its bowl game -- likely the Motor City Bowl vs. Central Michigan). Still a paltry total, though, and nobody with < 4 losses.

"Historical ineptitude" is the phrase I've been using for years now with Weis. As bad as Davie was, as horrible as Willingham was, they never brought ND as low as Weis has.

Charlie Weis is the nadir of ND football.

Van wrote:"Historical ineptitude" is the phrase I've been using for years now with Weis. As bad as Davie was, as horrible as Willingham was, they never brought ND as low as Weis has.

Charlie Weis is the nadir of ND football.

I don't know that I'd go that far. As winning records go, Joe Kuharich is at the bottom of the barrel (among coaches who were there for an appreciable length of time, anyway). Weis is nowhere near that.

Still, the blowout losses (beginning with Willingham and continuing through Weis, except for this year) are particularly disturbing. As was the 3-9 record in '07. One thing I've pointed out routinely is that even when ND was down (and that's been more often than not since my days as a student, at least by our standards), we were never really among the dregs of BTPCF. That wasn't the case in 2007, though.

Okay, fine...

In the modern era, Charlie Weis is the nadir of ND football.