T1B

Sam, curious, and you can answer honestly ... or not.

How much of the Bible have you read?

poptart wrote: How much of the Bible have you read?

How much of the Koran have you read?

What's your point?

poptart wrote:

T wrote:People following christ as a good guy, I can get.

Unless you stop to realize that if He didn't resurrect and He is not the Christ, He was a deceitful POS who led many people to suffer for His sake.

He isn't the one who created the myth behind the religion created in his name. His apostles did that.

mvscal wrote:

poptart wrote:

T wrote:People following christ as a good guy, I can get.

Unless you stop to realize that if He didn't resurrect and He is not the Christ, He was a deceitful POS who led many people to suffer for His sake.

He isn't the one who created the myth behind the religion created in his name. His apostles did that.

But the bible says so....

poptart wrote:Sam, curious, and you can answer honestly ... or not.

How much of the Bible have you read?

Ive read it

Has its good parts but mostly a crappy fairy tale that stole ideas and stories from earlier religions.

mvscal wrote:He isn't the one who created the myth behind the religion created in his name. His apostles did that.

Do you think the Words the Bible attributes to Jesus were never said?

Marty, I've read very little of the Koran.

poptart wrote:Do you think the Words the Bible attributes to Jesus were never said?

Not as such, no. I imagine they were cleaned up, edited and repackaged. At best, the basic gist of what he was trying to say came through. We can't really be sure, though. The apostles were trying to sell a product, so it would be extremely naive to suggest that they didn't embellish or even invent much of Jesus' prose.

Sort of like screenwriters trying to adapt a novel for film.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Do you think He said that?

poptart wrote:Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Do you think He said that?

Nope. In fact, I believe it contradicts his entire ministry and was a post mortem addition by a zealous follower.

How do you think it contradicts His ministry and how do you decide which Words to accept or not accept?

poptart wrote:How do you think it contradicts His ministry and how do you decide which Words to accept or not accept?

The ones in red ink.

Sudden Sam wrote:It absolutely amazes me how anyone can put any stock in the bible. Between all the rewrites, reinterpretations, motives behind the rewrites, etc., it's a joke.

Assuming one who puts stock in the Bible tries his or her best to live by its words, why would it bother you so much?

There is nothing wrong with the way Christians are called to live. We are called to be good, humble servants. We are called to treat people respectfully, love/respect our spouses, love/raise our children with benevolent authority, give to the poor with pure motives, avoid anger, etc. We do not always succeed at being good, but that is because we're human. Non-Christians don't always succeed at being good, either.

If your only problem with Christians is that they worry about the state of your soul, then I suggest you get over it. They are not (or should not be) judging you, because let's face it, they have no jurisdiction over your soul. They simply care about you. Whether or not you agree with them is your call, but there is no reason to be bitter or angry because someone is, as they see it, trying to help you. You should be more bothered by people who supposedly care about you but don't show any concern about your soul, if they are Christian. If you don't believe there is a Hell, and you don't put any stock in the Bible, then I'm not sure what about the Bible's message could cause you to be so bothered by it. You could simply say you're not interested.

Well if everybody felt that way, 88's thread on the main forum would never have gotten to 6 pages. And then where would we be?

So ppanther, how's your little one doing? Is one enough, or are more on the way?

Goober McTuber wrote:Well if everybody felt that way, 88's thread on the main forum would never have gotten to 6 pages. And then where would we be?

We'd be inundated with an avalanche of inane Mikey posts, I guess.

Praise God. He works in mysterious ways.

poptart wrote:Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Do you think He said that?

No

John said that or some version of that. As many times as it has been translated and edited by higher ups, John couldve said "And Jesus said, lets go to the waffle house, because I am drunk and need some hash browns covered and smothered"

Goober McTuber wrote:Well if everybody felt that way, 88's thread on the main forum would never have gotten to 6 pages. And then where would we be?

So ppanther, how's your little one doing? Is one enough, or are more on the way?

Goober, she is a fantastic, freakishly tall (no, really) 6-month-old who absolutely dominates my time. I also have a very busy 2-year-old boy, and I am d-o-n-e!!! Thanks for asking!

ppanther wrote:

Goober McTuber wrote:Well if everybody felt that way, 88's thread on the main forum would never have gotten to 6 pages. And then where would we be?

So ppanther, how's your little one doing? Is one enough, or are more on the way?

Goober, she is a fantastic, freakishly tall (no, really) 6-month-old who absolutely dominates my time. I also have a very busy 2-year-old boy, and I am d-o-n-e!!! Thanks for asking!

Congratulations. I’m sure they’re gorgeous kids.

Sam wrote:I read chunks in confirmation school. I've read all of Revelations. Good bits of other books. Never read it in its entirety.

If I picked up the Bible and the first thing I read was Revelation, I'd prolly put it down and never read it again.

Give the first 3-4 chapters of Genesis a slow read.
Then the book of John.

My advice, for what it's worth to ya.

It's an interesting take.

You're aware that a lot of believers cite the complexity of the universe as a reason why it makes sense to believe in God?

poptart wrote:It's an interesting take.

You're aware that a lot of believers cite the complexity of the universe as a reason why it makes sense to believe in God?

So God gets credit for all things wonderful, but not murder, rape, disease...

Martyred wrote:

poptart wrote:It's an interesting take.

You're aware that a lot of believers cite the complexity of the universe as a reason why it makes sense to believe in God?

So God gets credit for all things wonderful, but not murder, rape, disease...

God probably doesn't take the heat for creating those fucking Canucks, either.

Sudden Sam wrote:A close ladyfriend has been coming at me from that angle a lot lately. I've never comprehended that thinking. As I said, I find the exact opposite to be the case. If a "god" had created all this, I would expect things to be be far more simple and basic. The complexity, in my thinking, is a clear indicator of a very, long, complicated, evolving of everything.

Either that or god is a woman.

If god was a man, it would be far more simple and basic. He would also get drunk and yell at us like Eddie Murphy's father...

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Marty wrote:So God gets credit for all things wonderful, but not murder, rape, disease...

Most often, when someone goes down the "So ..." path, they go foul.

You did not disappoint.

The Bible tells us that God is soveriegn over all things.
Nothing happens without His allowance for it.

And all things were created by Him - John 1:3.

Sudden Sam wrote:


Kickin' their own asses again.

Freethought...

Sudden Sam wrote:"Believers" don't actually read their Bible. It's interpreted for them by enlightened child molestors, dildo-wielding/scuba suit-wearing pervs, and others of that ilk.

Thinking and/or analyzing is forbidden. Fer chrissakes, if that was allowed, there would be NO BELIEVERS!!!

It's funny that the thumpers let this slide. It really stands as a tribute to poptart, tl and ppanther () that they'd adhere to such thoroughgoing Christian forbearance (what mvscal claims is faggotry) in light of this kind of attack. Interesting set of beliefs y'all share, and getting as much of an understanding as time allows of its many manifestations has its rewards.


Sam,
Believers have contributed a great deal to the Western intellectual tradition.




velocet

Speaking of battles...

When tweetle beetles fight,
it's called
a tweetle beetle battle.

And when they
battle in a puddle,
it's a tweetle
beetle puddle battle.

AND when tweetle beetles
battle with paddles in a puddle,
they call it a tweetle
beetle puddle paddle battle.
AND...

When beetles battle beetles
in a puddle paddle battle
and the beetle battle puddle
is a puddle in a bottle...

...they call this
a tweetle beetle
bottle puddle
paddle battle muddle.
AND...
When beetles
fight these battles
in a bottle
with their paddles
and the bottle's
on a poodle
and the poodle's
eating noodles...

...they call this
a muddle puddle
tweetle poodle
beetle noodle
bottle paddle battle.
AND...

Now wait
a minute
Mr. Socks Fox!

When a fox is
in the bottle where
the tweetle beetls battle
with their paddles
in a puddle on a
noodle-eating poodle.
THIS is what they call...

...a tweetle beetle
noodle poodle bottles
paddled muddled duddled
fuddled wuddled
fox in socks, sir!

Fox in socks,
our game us done, sir.
Thank you for
a lot of fun, sir.

velocet,

I actually forgot about his comment, and now still don't feel it warrants much attention. I don't have time for that kind of absurdity these days.

I hope you're well!

poptart wrote:You're aware that a lot of believers cite the complexity of the universe as a reason why it makes sense to believe in God?

Complexity doesn't have shit to do with anything. It's kind of funny how "complex" things are when we don't understand them.

"Irreducible complexity" is a horseshit argument that any cro-magnon hooting around a camp fire would be very comfortable with.

poptart wrote:You're aware that a lot of believers cite the complexity of the universe as a reason why it makes sense to believe in God?

believers see "gods work" in everything.....except starvation, pestilence, etc....in those cases, he's just testing to see how good of christians people are....when he sees that a lot of us are not what he'd envisioned, he crys.....

it's the same story from virtually every religion

Complexity does not prove God.
I'm not here to attempt to prove God to you, anyway.

Sam's twist of saying complexity is evidence against God was new one on me, that's all.

Felix wrote:believers see "gods work" in everything.....except starvation, pestilence, etc....in those cases, he's just testing to see how good of christians people are....when he sees that a lot of us are not what he'd envisioned, he crys.....

This is not accurate.

poptart wrote:This is not accurate.

so you're saying one of two things....he doesn't control everything, in which case he's not omnipotent hence not this entity "god"

or he does control everything and just doesn't give a fuck...

so which is it?

he doesn't control everything, in which case he's not omnipotent

Controlling everything is not a condition of omnipotence. Your argument is illogical.

ppanther wrote: Controlling everything is not a condition of omnipotence. Your argument is illogical.

Omnipotence (from Latin: Omni Potens) is unlimited power.

so, this entity you refer to as "god", the creator of the whole entire universe wielding unlimited power, yet chooses to torture innocents via starvation, pestilence, natural disasters, etc.,...

what kind of "loving creator" would do that to innocents?

Felix, God is sovereign over all things.

This means nothing happens unless God allows for it to happen.


As God gave the Ten Commandments, the first things He stresses was that HE alone is God and that idol worship has tragic consequences.

Exodus 20:2-6
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments


You continue to hitch your wagon to satan, it's gonna get verrah ugly for ya.

It's just the way it is.

Felix, do you not understand that power and control are two different things? I need to know this before I know if your garbage is worth answering. TIA

ppanther wrote:Felix, do you not understand that power and control are two different things?

Are they really? How can you have one without the other? I'll take your answer off the air.

I doubt you could have control without power, but it is totally possible to have power and choose not to control.

poptart wrote:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Sounds like god also had a rough catholic childhood

While Egypt was a tangible place, it is also a metaphor for the spiritual state people are in.

In bondage to satan.

Ephesians 2:2,3
2 wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Because they remain in spiritual "Egypt," dragged around by satan, people are by nature children of wrath.

We have no choice but to face hardship and failure.

Look around at people.


God brings people right OUT of this when they take Christ, just as He took Israel out of Egypt when they trusted in Him.

ppanther wrote:Felix, do you not understand that power and control are two different things? I need to know this before I know if your garbage is worth answering. TIA

garbage? I thought they were legitimate observations

but lets say I acquiesce to YOUR assumption that this entity has opted to cede control over everything he created....


first question-why would he choose to do such a thing, knowing full well that ceding all of his control would cause him so much grief?

second question-if he did cede control over everything (like you assert) why do so many religious types give him so much credit for the things you say he doesn't control

inquiring minds want to know

if you'd like, I can cite biblical passages that contradict what you're asserting, but really what's the point?

Felix wrote:but lets say I acquiesce to YOUR assumption that this entity has opted to cede control over everything he created....

Can you please stop falsely stating MY assumptions? I never said that God "ceded" control over "everything he created" (in bold, no less). I have no need to participate in this discussion if it's really between you and assumptions of your own creation.

first question-why would he choose to do such a thing, knowing full well that ceding all of his control would cause him so much grief?

Assuming He did such a thing, which by the way is your assertion, why would you ask me to explain His motives? Would you honestly expect me to know them? I'm not being facetious here, I am just wondering why you think I would be the one to ask about what God thinks about what He chose to do with the world He created. I'm just a human living in it.

second question-if he did cede control over everything (like you assert) why do so many religious types give him so much credit for the things you say he doesn't control

Since I never asserted any such thing, your question can be filed under "irrelevant".

if you'd like, I can cite biblical passages that contradict what you're asserting, but really what's the point?

...especially since you'd be contradicting nothing more than what you decided I asserted, which was incorrect? Indeed, what's the point?

And what's the point anyway, since you don't believe in God?
And since you don't believe in God, but do believe that morally good behavior is an in-born trait (see: previous discussions), why do you suppose people let innocents die of starvation?