T1B

None of that was the least bit funny. Never would've made it past the cutting room floor.

LTS TRN 2 wrote:
Think about that. Each day we Illinois taxpayers have contributed $38 million to the war effort in Iraq. What could we buy in Illinois for $38 million for a single day?

According to the exhibit, we could:

-- Build 51,846 homes with renewable electricity

That's among the things we could buy if a single day of taxes going to the war went to the state's needs instead.

So they can build new homes for $730 each? That's pretty remarkable.

Are you really such a dolt? The figure you're cherrypicking refers to the cost of making the home "energy renewable."

The point is the $38 MILLION PER DAY coming directly out of the Illinois coffers to be pissed away on these phony and totally lost wars.

C'mon, "Mikey," is that all you've got? Little twirpy carpings that don't make sense? Gee, you'd no doubt be welcomed in the mutual reach around between B-Juice and Mall Cop. They're similarly timid and clipped in their attempts to post. Step your game up, bitch, and stop wasting my time.

Uh...it said "build 51,846 homes with renewable electricity." That's pretty clear to me.

Though I agree with your main point, if you're going to spout numbers or other facts to make it you'd better be sure they make sense, otherwise you'll be outed as the dumbfuck you are, which gives a bad name to anybody else trying to make the same point even if they're not a dumbfuck like you.

Make a home "energy renewable" for $730?
First tell me what that means and then tell me how it can be done, and I might start tomorrow on my own.

I suppose he is attempting to make this board "energy renewable" by dropping multiple compost heaps in this thread.

Mikey wrote:Uh...it said "build 51,846 homes with renewable electricity." That's pretty clear to me.

Though I agree with your main point, if you're going to spout numbers or other facts to make it you'd better be sure they make sense, otherwise you'll be outed as the dumbfuck you are, which gives a bad name to anybody else trying to make the same point even if they're not a dumbfuck like you.

Make a home "energy renewable" for $730?
First tell me what that means and then tell me how it can be done, and I might start tomorrow on my own.

energy renewable apparently means buy a couple 40 watt PV arrays from harborfreight to power your cell phones and a few LED lights.

aren't you glad you have let's turd on your team, mike? i guess he is the yin to bradhusker's yang.

So...why are you fretting like wet hens over one computation which doesn't seem to add up? Why avoid the $38 MILLION per day of Illinois' state funds being pissed away on fake lost wars (while profiting private military contractors, of course)?

Okay...simple question, and it's all on you. Now man up and take some responsibility or just admit (inside, to yourself) that you're being a GOP-styled coward.

Go..

LTS TRN 2 wrote:So...why are you fretting like wet hens over one computation which doesn't seem to add up?

Not fretting but the constant exaggerations and outright falsehoods you spout don't help your cause.

Okay, a simple dismissal/smear. Now...back it up. Let's see you point out one falsehood I've stated/. If you want to accuse the Nobel winning economist of being a liar and presenting bogus stats, back it up. The number of houses which could be built may be a mistake--though it no doubt refers to a real similarly galling stat. So what? Do you really suggest that anything else can be disputed--let alone a blank-check dismissal. Are you really given to such mewling fetal positioned inquiry?

So...go ahead, I double-dog dare you to clearly suggest a falsehood I've stated on any subject. Okay? :wink:

That was one mistake you made. Another was when you stated that the money saved from bringing the troops home would pay for "hundreds of years" of social programs when in fact it would only pay for no more than a few.

Wags is entirely correct. Your penchant for playing fast and loose with wildly erroneous facts and figures tends to render your credibility moot. With the way you blithely spout so many clearly silly things, you come off as little different than poptart defending the Bible by quoting its most lame-brained passages.

Bullshit! The point is that the TRILLIONS of dollars poured into our domestic health care systems would keep it going as a perpetually solvent institution. Remember, it stays in the system---doctors, suppliers, therapists, drivers, all the way down the line. The clear facts of our national "treasure" being wasted on these fake and lost wars remain unrefuted and, frankly, indisputable.

What else? Anything? Are you ready to defend the current fomentation of another ghastly war--on Iran--by the cornered and coiled fake apartheid state?

Are you ready to defend the Keystone pipeline fiasco?

How about fracking and the GOP attempt to curtail any further regulations of this utterly toxic practice?

How about the Koch brothers' funded Climate Change denialist hack "institutes"?

Okay...a softball...how about defending claims that Allen Holdsworth has some kind of profile in the guitar god pantheon.


Good luck

So, when your "double-dog dare" is taken up and offhandedly dismissed by the facts of your own treachery, you respond with a naked attempt to move the goalposts.

Solid gambit.



Allan Holdsworth? Does he belong in the pantheon of guitar gods?





What, are ya stupid? Holdsworth is so toweringly brilliant, profoundly influential and otherworldly talented, it's not even open to debate. Unless you would argue that jazz/fusion as an entire genre simply doesn't belong—which would eliminate John McLaughlin, as well—then of course Holdsworth belongs. He's probably the most deserving.

Go ahead, come up with a Mount Rushmore of guitar gods. This is pretty much it...

Rock: Jimi Hendrix
Blues: B.B. King
Jazz: Wes Montgomery
Fusion: Allan Holdsworth

Although we probably need to add a few more faces to include country, flamenco and classical players, Holdsworth is definitely right there at the top of any list of fusion greats...

...but then you well know this, and you're merely trolling again.

Still, as trolls go, you're my favorite, so keep up the good fight.

LTS TRN 2 wrote: Are you ready to defend the Keystone pipeline fiasco?

um, what?

Well, wags? Are you ready to defend the Keystone Pipeline fiasco? You know, the tar sands boondoggle project? Yes or no?

And Van, where are your actual disputes? Holdsworth? That clip is a joke. You call that "masterful" guitar playing. Look, let's skip music for now.

Take a real shot at any real subject. No cheap blanket dismissal/runaways. Try it...see what happens.. :wink:

LTS TRN 2 wrote:Well, wags? Are you ready to defend the Keystone Pipeline fiasco? You know, the tar sands boondoggle project?

boondoggle? You must be thinking of Solyndra, you know, the half billion dollars of taxpayer money pissed away. Not the Keystone pipeline, which is as "shovel ready" a project if ever there was one. A project that would create thousands of jobs, reduce our dependance on foreign oil, yet not cost one red taxpayer cent. That boodoggle?

oh, but your boy kicked the can down the road on that, wanting to appease what's left of his tree hugging base, in the most cowardly manner possible.

You seem really confused about this.

Nick, yes, you probably should skip music for now, and for good. Holdsworth is apparently so far over your head that you really aren't worth talking to regarding world-class guitar playing.

Clearly, you haven't a clue.

Van wrote:Nick, yes, you probably should skip music for now, and for good. Holdsworth is apparently so far over your head that you really aren't worth talking to regarding world-class guitar playing.

Clearly, you haven't a clue.

Aaaaaaand...there's your cue Van...to turn this into another one of your soul-crushingly dull guitar threads.

All the better to finally throw some dirt on this topic and put it to bed.





Until poptart resets it in 3 months or so.

Get your shit straight. Nick turned the discussion to Holdsworth, not me. I merely responded to his question.

Martyred wrote: All the better to finally throw some dirt on this topic and put it to bed.

not so fast my friend.

I want Nicky to explain the Keystone pipeline fiasco boondoggle...

in excruciating detail.

and remember, he brought it up.

LTS TRN 2 wrote:Are you ready to defend the Keystone pipeline fiasco?

The only fiasco is that we aren't building it right now.

I'll reset this for you. try to get it on one bounce.

The Keystone Pipeline is a sick joke by the plutocrat billionaires. The oil is so foul and costly to produce from those mountains of tar that the thought of developing it at all was unthinkable even under the Mordor sensibilities of Cheney--an avowed oil man.

That the Koch brothers have pumped hundreds of millions of dollars into the entirely fake Climate Change Denial movement should in itself provide all the proper scrutiny and disdain necessary for this fiasco.

The "job creation" chant is of course total bullshit. A few thousand temporary (non-union) jobs will be created to lay the pipe, but that's about it. Of course the emergency clean-up crews will be busy--if the past several years are any indication. Why? Because with the GOP-led stripping of regulations on pipeline safety standards, all sorts of serious ruptures spills have been taking place all over the country. Did you know that over twenty workers died last year in pipeline accidents--from leaks and ruptures?

As for the glut of oil currently bogging down the profit model of the giant oil companies, well maybe they should start pumping those RECORD PROFITS into the future, not the past. And the future is renewable energy, period.

That Bill Clinton should whore out and endorse this monstrosity is typical of the sociopath rapist who also signed off on NAFTA, and eliminating the Glass-Steagall act (and pardoning the money man of the Russian/Israeli mob, Marc Rich).

And Van, the Holdsworth pieces are hardly lost on me, but I find them tedious, even though performed by first rate players. His basic sound is a monotone--very dull and without any "juice" or "sprong." His approach to soloing over the admittedly complex chord progression is sort of Pat Metheny -lite. But unlike Pat, he has no discernible soul--or any real melodic thrust. No real structure to his flight, just meandering through the chords with hyper-technical noodling. Notice that he doesn't build the solo as Metheny always does, and also that there's no shape to the meandering--and with the terminally dull tone, it's boring as hell. Explain why you think this stuff is really Music in the first place. He clearly is a guitar drone with no spiritual base. Sort of like a mellower Buckethead without the bucket.

LTS TRN 2 wrote: the GOP-led stripping of regulations on pipeline safety standards, all sorts of serious ruptures spills have been taking place all over the country. Did you know that over twenty workers died last year in pipeline accidents--from leaks and ruptures?

Link?

most likely, just more of your fatuous "throw it against the wall and see what sticks" smear campaign.

Yes, some older pipelines leak and need to be replaced. Those are with outdated technology and materials. The Keystone pipeline would be much more durable and less prone to failure.

Nick, besides the fact that Holdsworth always endeavors to sound like a saxophone—something many guitarists aspire to yet so few accomplish, and none come close to him in this regard—every last damn thing you just said about Holdsworth is infinitely true of John McLaughlin, your favorite fusion god. They're both equally unlistenable if the goal is easily accessible melodies and simple, catchy phrasing, with the primary difference being that Holdsworth literally pioneered his smooth horn-like legato style. Other than Frank Gambale, there is basically no one else out there who sounds even remotely like Holdsworth, or who can cop any of his vibe, much less his incredible mind and towering technique.

Unless and until you're willing to dismiss McLaughlin with the same bland vitriol you troll with regarding Holdsworth, you've got no leg to stand on. Keep in mind, you also dismiss Rodrigo and Gabriela for doing exactly what you say Holdsworth doesn't do. Either you want catchy and accessible or you want McLaughlin/Holdsworth levels of indulgent complexity. You're never going to get both in the same piece, so make up your mind.

I will crush you...like a bug


First, listen to McLaughlin play the guitar like a guitar (not a...saxophone? what a stupid idea)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64RAslP- ... 42F4B7B1A0

and here he is playing very different, but still very real music. Notice the distinct spiritual approach--his clear reason for playing. This seems lost on you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHDO1HN06Fc

But no one doubts the greatness of McLaughlin--only you.And while Holdsworth is a very talented player with a clear style and a stolid vision, his is but a tepid cult fan base at best, and of course no classic albums or great collaborations, and certainly no forging of entire new areas of guitar playing, etc. It's not even crushing a bug debating this, it's just scratching a mild itch.

Now...as to the facts of our insanely out of control military industrial/congressional complex effectively gutting our nation's infrastructure and basic social cohesion, wake the fuck up for starters, and stop being a niggling bitch. What the fuck is wrong with you clowns? Stay on point.

War Wagon wrote:

LTS TRN 2 wrote: the GOP-led stripping of regulations on pipeline safety standards, all sorts of serious ruptures spills have been taking place all over the country. Did you know that over twenty workers died last year in pipeline accidents--from leaks and ruptures?

Link?

most likely, just more of your fatuous "throw it against the wall and see what sticks" smear campaign.

Yes, some older pipelines leak and need to be replaced. Those are with outdated technology and materials. The Keystone pipeline would be much more durable and less prone to failure.

Of course you're not about to dispute any of this, so...what are you doing again?

Cleanup efforts continue in Montana where an estimated 1,000 barrels of oil have spilled into the Yellowstone River and traveled about 100 miles. The spill occurred when a pipeline burst near the town of Laurel and spilled into the Yellowstone. The town is down river from Yellowstone National Park.

“We do not know the root cause. This is a very unusual event,” said ExxonMobil Pipeline President Gary Pruessing during a report on the "PBS NewsHour." “Obviously we had a lot of oil enter the water very quickly and whatever it is, it is something that is very unusual for us. It is not something we have our hands around yet.”

Nearly 300 people are reported to be involved with the cleanup effort, which includes vacuum tankers and nearly 2,500 absorbent pads to soak up the crude from the water and riverbanks. And while the response is said to have begun just minutes after the spill occurred, this rupture may not have been a complete surprise. “The U.S. Department of Transportation, which overseas pipelines, recently notified ExxonMobil of seven potential safety violations along the pipe” reported Hari Sreenivasan for PBS. In fact, as has been pointed out a few times in the last year, problems with pipelines are becoming less surprising in the Untied States.

Recent pipeline problems
About a year ago, an estimated 800,000 gallons of oil poured into the Kalamazoo River in Michigan. Months later, 600,000 gallons of Canadian crude oil found its way into a retention pound in the Chicago suburb of Romeoville, Ill. These spills gave the industry one black eye in 2010, and a series of explosions that year left the American pipeline industry with more wounds.

Between January 2010 and February 2011, there were nine major pipeline explosions that resulted in 18 deaths, 13 injuries and 85 destroyed homes in the United States. Here’s the list of those accidents:

Jan. 5, 2010 in Jackson, Miss.
Owner: Gulf South
Deaths: 0; Injures: 0

Jan. 6, 2010 at Barksdale Air Force Base
Bossier City, La.
Owner: Private developers
Deaths: 1; Injuries: 0

June 7, 2010 in Johnson County, Texas
Owner: Enterprise Products Partners LP
Deaths: 1; Injuries: 8

June 29, 2010 in Pocasset, Okla.
Owner: Enogex LLC, a subsidiary of Oklahoma Gas and Electric Co.
Deaths: 0; Injuries: 3

Sept. 9, 2010 in San Bruno, Calif.
Owner: Pacific Gas & Electric
Deaths: 8; Injuries:
38 homes destroyed

Feb. 8, 2011 in Houston, Texas
Owner: Enterprise Products
Deaths: 1; Injuries: 0

Feb. 9, 2011 in Allentown, Pa.
Natural gas pipeline
Owner: N/A
Deaths: 5; Injuries: 0
47 homes damaged

Feb. 10, 2011 in Hanoverton, Ohio
Owner: El Paso Corp.
(Tennessee Gas Pipeline)
Deaths: 0; Injuries 0

LTS TRN 2 wrote:I will crush you...like a bug

Yeah, just like you never do...

First, listen to McLaughlin play the guitar like a guitar (not a...saxophone? what a stupid idea)

It's such a stupid idea that guess who else has always claimed sax players such as John Coltrane to be among his greatest influences, to a point that he tried to play that way himself?

Why, none other than...John McLaughlin!

He just never managed it nearly as well as Holdsworth, though it wasn't for lack of trying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64RAslP- ... 42F4B7B1A0

Yep, killer stuff, but then that's nothing like his fusion playing, which is where I drew the comparison. A while ago you posted a couple of jams of his where he was just all over the map, and his tone was awful. Of course his acoustic things are more melodic.

Anyway, you don't have to sell me on McLaughlin. I love the guy, and have no problem lumping him with DiMeola and Holdsworth. They're all at that level.

and here he is playing very different, but still very real music. Notice the distinct spiritual approach--his clear reason for playing. This seems lost on you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHDO1HN06Fc

Again...acoustic. Even so, that piece is nowhere near as good as the first one. Everything you accused Holdsworth of is true in this piece. To the uneducated ear he's just mindlessly noodling, ripping around to no real purpose.

But no one doubts the greatness of McLaughlin--only you.

Definitely not me. When have I ever doubted his greatness? All I said was that he's every bit as guilty as Holdsworth of playing technically indulgent things that seem to lack easily accessible melodies and catchy phrasing.

The fact that I have no problem placing him alongside DiMeola and Holdsworth should tell you high highly I regard the guy.

And while Holdsworth is a very talented player with a clear style and a stolid vision, his is but a tepid cult fan base at best, and of course no classic albums or great collaborations, and certainly no forging of entire new areas of guitar playing, etc. It's not even crushing a bug debating this, it's just scratching a mild itch.

It's also utter nonsense. Holdsworth has been far more successful than McLaughlin in forging a new style of guitar playing. There are players who are similar to McLaughlin. No one is remotely similar to Holdsworth, and his shadow looms large over an entire generation of legato players.

I won't even pretend to be any sort of geeetar mensa like you fukks, but, here is my take based mostly on what has been posted here.

Holdsworth is brilliant, in a Steve Vai sort of way. They both obviously have boatloads of talent, but, they just don't do much for me personally. I can't tell you why, it just doesn't.

I love Mac's acoustic playing, but, I'm gonna guess I would love Holdsworth playing acoustic as well.

Could one of you fukks post an example of Mac playing fusion?

smackie, here's a very recent live performance of his. I don't know what his deal is, but it seems that whenever he plays an electric guitar anymore he ends up with the most compressed, lifeless tone you'll ever hear, and his soloing is just so scattalogical. Compared to what you've been hearing with The Aristocrats lately, I highly doubt you'll fall too shit-hot in love with McLaughlin's recent fusion works...



Here are a couple of live pieces of his from Clapton's Crossroads festivals. Again, his lifeless, overly compressed tone and point-and-shoot phrasing just baffle me, but here ya go...

I kind of liked some of Mac's stuff other than one that had a horrific tone. But, yeah, I definitely like him better on acoustic. Electric guitar noodling in general just doesn't do anything for me musically, unless it Stevie Ray doing it because his amazing tone makes ANYTHING he does sound great.

smackie, earlier I mentioned to Nick that you can't really have both virtuoso performance and easily accessible, catchy phrasing in the same fusion piece, which got me to thinking...yes, of course you can. There are countless such pieces. Unfortunately, none of them have much to do with McLaughlin or Holdsworth.

However, a guy who's also a (sometimes) fusion monster and every bit their technical equal has done a few of those types of pieces, and since you've endured the very-difficult-to-listen-to Holdsworth and McLaughlin clips, here are a couple of examples of live fusion played at a world-class level that anyone can "get"...





Pretty much, that's who Rodrigo wants to be when he grows up.

LTS TRN 2 wrote:Of course you're not about to dispute any of this

I'll dispute it plenty until you include a credible source.

Even then, I'd tell you that you are a dumbfuck for opposing the Keystone pipeline in your customary knee jerk reaction.

Uh..wags, you haven't actually disputed the facts I've presented, but only dismissed them and curled up like a fretting child. Examine them. Check them out--incident by incident. Come to your own proper conclusions.

Now Van, your silly digression act is tired and tedious. McLaughlin was never the issue, but rather the idiotic claim that Holdsworth is some kind of great player. The fact that you and a handful of fret geeks regard him as really cool is pathetic. The issue of spirituality informing and making real music is that to which you are oblivious--and which renders you inane. What, are you 16 years-old?

Holdswortth's true peer is this guy



Yeah, Jeff Lorber fusion, the soulless wanking of utterly boring shit that no one knows or cares about except oblivious wannabes like you.

No more guitar or "jazz/fusion" quibbling from you. I threw you a bone to let you off easy on the pounding concerning America's absurdly incompetent and disastrous military history, and instead you resort to childish niggling. What a jerk off!

LTS TRN 2 wrote:Uh..wags, you haven't actually disputed the facts I've presented

more often than not, the facts you present are incorrect.

i simply asked for a source, which you failed to provide.

LTS TRN 2 wrote:the GOP-led stripping of regulations on pipeline safety standards, all sorts of serious ruptures spills have been taking place all over the country.

He asked you for a link, you stupid asshole. Name the specific regulations on pipline safety standards which were repealed and the date on which these regulations were allegedly repealed.

Did you know that over twenty workers died last year in pipeline accidents--from leaks and ruptures?

So what? 300 farmers were killed in work related accidents in 2010. Should we stop growing food or were you trying to make some kind of point?

Nick, the U.S. military has been utterly dominant. Other than for an uncommitted quagmire in Vietnam along with a similarly hamstrung effort in Korea, they've done pretty much anything they've wanted for seventy years now.

It's not my fault your view of what constitutes a military victory vs a military defeat is so far removed from reality as to be laughable even while accounting for the fact that you're trolling, but hey...whatever floats your happy little gremlin boat.

Van wrote: Other than for an uncommitted quagmire in Vietnam.

The so-called quagmire in Vietnam was entirely political. The Viet Cong was destroyed in the Tet Offensive in 1968 and the NVA was destroyed through a combination of the Linebacker II bombings and their disasterous Easter Offensive in 1972 after being weakened by the Cambodian Incursion and continued strikes on their logistical support.

It took the NVA three full years to reconstitute and take Saigon in the complete absence of any organized opposition. The blame for the outcome rests squarely on the shoulders of the usual chickenshit dicklickers in Congress who cut Vietnam off from all military and civilian assistance. Had there been any responsible individuals in Congress, Vietnam would have been stabilized along Korean lines.

So it's like the Buffalo Bills version of an army.

but we coulda! but we shoulda! but...

mvscal, that's precisely the "hamstrung" quagmire I'm referring to in both wars. Certainly wasn't any fault of the military.

Armies get their funding cut when they're given roughly a decade to achieve an objective and fail to deliver. There's a pattern here. Strange how it's always two seconds away from victory when it happens.
Welcome to the slag heap, you're just behind Napoleon in the complaint's department - take a number, be seated.