Poptart, serious question

[poptart]

Instead of allowing the Word to speak for itself

An incredible comment.

Jay, nobody would pick up the Bible and, without prior indoctrination, conclude that chapter 1 of Genesis says we live in an open system with stars billions of light years away from us.

[Atomic Punk]

Instead of allowing the Word to speak for itself

An incredible comment.

Jay, nobody would pick up the Bible and, without prior indoctrination, conclude that chapter 1 of Genesis says we live in an open system with stars billions of light years away from us.

Why would He? He's not talking to scientists but to people living off the land and their need to trust in Him that gives them life through faith.

Since you're still ducking it, you continue to not understand metaphors, similes, etc. and the types of language used in ancient times. Now pops, why would the writers of scripture use metaphors and other usages of language to primitive people?

[poptart]

Genesis 1 was only written for ignorant people?
And God decided He had to tell them false information about their world.

Amazing, the dancing in this (and other) thread(s).



Whatever, folks.

[Atomic Punk]

Don't twist my words out of context. You have a brain, so use it.

[LTS TRN 2]

And don't try and twist giant truths...

http://gianthumanskeletons.blogspot.com ... salem.html

[poptart]

AP, first, who says the early readers of Genesis were "primitive people?"
I happen to think they knew a lot more about the true nature of their world than most of the readers of this board.

2. Genesis was written for all people, in all times, and God's Word is ETERNAL.

3. Nowhere does the Bible indicate that the earth is moving, let along moving and spinning in the ways people today want us to believe.

4. As was pointed out previously, you are going down a very slippery slope by denying the Word this way...


Genesis 1:1-8
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Metaphor: We know the earth is billions of years old. Time is infinite to God (2 Peter 3:8). These first two days happened over a few million or billion years. Or some amount of time.



Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Metaphor: Everyone knows a virgin can not give birth. Jesus was born just like any other person. Of man's seed.




Matthew 28:7-9
And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.
And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Metaphor: Jesus didn't really rise from the dead. Nobody can rise from the dead. We know this. Jesus was just a good man and teacher.




Can we see a VERY big problem here?

[Jay in Phoenix]

Not at all, when it comes to the "metaphors" you cited.

Those are currently known as facts.

There is no such thing as immaculate conception. It never happened, it never will. This isn't to deny the existence of Christ, just the Scriptural birth method.

Nobody has ever risen from death, at least not after more than a few minutes. Days? Impossible. Beyond Scripture, prove it.

The Earth was formed over billions of years, not days. There is an abundance of physical evidence, including dating methods, that verify this.

As stated in a different thread, your passion for your beliefs is as strong as any I have read. Passion however, without insight and verification from more than a single source, however heartfelt, is blind.

I have said we are at a point of diminishing returns with this this topic. Your viewpoint is so one directional that it has eliminated all logic and rationality. I would be happy to entertain your Scriptural discussions if you would entertain even a modicum of scientific theory, if not established and provable fact.

As such, you are dismissive of anything that doesn't directly align with your take on Scripture. Without a balance of ideas, of reasonable conjecture, you might as well be walking blindfolded into an abyss. If I am wrong here, then show it to me without your Biblical crutch. You have inundated this board and numerous threads with Scripture. Unless you can separate metaphor, similes, etc. from verifiable truth and provable historic record, it remains a fairy tale.

Or at least, YOUR fairy tale.

[poptart]

Your viewpoint is so one directional that it has eliminated all logic and rationality. I would be happy to entertain your Scriptural discussions if you would entertain even a modicum of scientific theory, if not established and provable fact.

As such, you are dismissive of anything that doesn't directly align with your take on Scripture. Without a balance of ideas, of reasonable conjecture, you might as well be walking blindfolded into an abyss.

1. Old-time Jews who held to the Old Testament never believed in evolution. Christians never believed it, either, until modern times. Evolution is a fantasy which in no way aligns with the Truth of God's Word.

2. The virgin birth is basic Christian belief. It's in the Apostles Creed.

3. As is the resurrection.


My points are mainstream Christian belief, Jay.
Certainly not radical in any way.

If a Christian goes around speaking contrary to 1, 2 or 3, he is surely dismissing God's Word.

if you choose not to believe the Bible, that's up to you.

[Atomic Punk]

Pops, where did I say I believe in evolution? I do not hold the belief that we evolves from apes, tree shrews, toasters, etc. Also, I'm not denying a miraculous virgin birth. That would go against my beliefs. That would be where I disagree with Jay, but you are using the overall interpretation of the Bible to take metaphors, similes, figures of speech out of context to support your view.

Now, if you want to believe in the literal explanations in Genesis, then it doesn't hurt anybody. God gives the concept of eternal time in relative terms that can be applied to man's understanding. "A day is like a thousand years to God." Does that simile mean that one day literally mean 1 day = 1 thousand years? That is where you get your concept of time incorrect. God is infinite, so why would man be able to comprehend it? Alpha and the Omega is the beginning and the end in the Greek alphabet. In other words, God is infinite and eternal and therefore has always existed. To you, you want to say the Earth is flat and only 6000+ years old.

Your misuse of language to support your views isn't scientifically supported by fact and observation. The idea is to give man a construct on how to live life in a 7 day work week as an example. It's healthy to take a 7th day for worship and thanksgiving. Again, if you want to dismiss scientific fact and observation, then it does you no real harm. It's just that you as being a credible witness falls short when misusing language such as you do.

Of course, I KMOA saying H2O is the "only" substance that has 3 phases. I was making a point in your understanding of water and firmament. Of course, it didn't take long for a a smart ass like Dins to catch that one.

Normally I wouldn't get involved with religious discussion, but your denial of facts needed to be checked as you lose credibility in your own arguments.

[War Wagon]

Wagon, look through my Christians among us thread. I clearly pointed out how the BIBLE instructs us of the shape and nature of our cosmos -- and much of the meat of that is in the FIRST CHAPTER OF THE BIBLE. It seems pretty important.

Look at that thread -- and let's look at this...

No disrespect but how about if I don't, but say I did?

Would that get your Dead Sea scrolls in a twist?

You have WAY too much time on your hands... and you still haven't answered my "lusteth in your heart" = adultery question. Not that I expected you too, I said as much. But you are a man, subject to human frailty, same as the rest of us.

I really want an honest answer on that, straight from your gut, if not your soul. Tell me how you deal with temptation, the weakness of the flesh. Do you or have you ever partaken of pornography, for instance.

If you can honestly do that, I might read something else you think I should consider as important. Otherwise, you are nothing more than scroll wheel material.

[poptart]

AP, Genesis gives a very straightforward account of the creation.
Day one, this... day two, this... and so-on.

There is NO REASON to take it any other way than literal.

Since we have this direct, straightforward account of creation which God has given us, I accept it.

So I'll ask you again, WHAT SCRIPTURE contradicts this account of the creation and tells us instead that the earth is billions of years old?

Pops, where did I say I believe in evolution? I do not hold the belief that we evolves from apes, tree shrews, toasters, etc.

When and how was man created in relation to the rest of God's creation?

[Jay in Phoenix]

1. Old-time Jews who held to the Old Testament never believed in evolution. Christians never believed it, either, until modern times. Evolution is a fantasy which in no way aligns with the Truth of God's Word.

1. Evolution is happening all the time. It just happens very very slowly and over great periods over time. It is a verifiable fact, which your Book is not. Pops, I have never dismissed the Bible as a belief system or a way of of faith. Just not as an absolutely verifiable document of history. We BELIEVE in the Bible, we cannot KNOW it as absolute and knowable, recorded truth. You cannot SEE evolution anymore than you can see the air we breathe, yet we KNOW the air is there.

We BELIEVE Christ existed, yet we cannot prove it. We can see the change in species over time, through fossils, sediment deposits, sea changes, etc. The world we inhabit is in constant flux, or evolution. I am not speaking of Darwinism. Just change. That is a constant that cannot be ignored.

2. The virgin birth is basic Christian belief.

So what. Does that make it real? Belief versus fact. Prove the virgin birth actually happened. Show us the evidence outside of the Bible. Show us the bones of Christ. Show us his actual image.

3. As is the resurrection.


My points are mainstream Christian belief, Jay.
Certainly not radical in any way.

I never said your Christian beliefs were. I never questioned your passion or faith.

Just your knowledge of history, science and logical proof.

The resurrection is NOT verifiable in any way, shape or form. It is simply a matter of faith, as are all of your belief systems.

You and I are more in agreement than you realize, when it comes to faith. When it comes to truth, we are worlds away.

Of which I am blessed. You dear poptart, on the other hand, might well be cursed. You speak about opening the mind, so why haven't you done so? Start with your eyes and the line of sight question I asked. Then we can speak rationally.

If a Christian goes around speaking contrary to 1, 2 or 3, he is surely dismissing God's Word.

if you choose not to believe the Bible, that's up to you.

Not at all. It boils down to interpretation.

Unless God has actually spoken to you, through burning bush or other means, unless you have a recording of His words on tape or digital storage, that we can playback and ALL listen to, then it's your word and your belief alone.

Yes, I am being somewhat sarcastic here, but I will always take what I can see, smell, hear, touch or taste over what some book tells me to think.

Believe whatever fallacies you want, that's up to you.

[poptart]

I really want an honest answer on that, straight from your gut, if not your soul. Tell me how you deal with temptation, the weakness of the flesh. Do you or have you ever partaken of pornography, for instance.

If you can honestly do that, I might read something else you think I should consider as important. Otherwise, you are nothing more than scroll wheel material.

Wagon, it goes without saying that I am just like you.

We all left God.
We have all sinned.
We have all come under satan's domain.

Christ is our answer to these three problems.


As for temptation, I don't worry about it.
At all.

I don't have to show anything to God -- show Him I am not sinning, or whatever...
He ALREADY sees us believers as Holy and blameless.


Colossians 1:20-22
[20] And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
[21] And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
[22] In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:


It's a phenomenal thing.
Just know your identity.

It's not a good thing to get tangled up in sin, however.
It is the channel by which satan operates and hinders your life.

For me, the way to gain strength is to realize first that -----> I HAVE NONE.

Read the Word in the morning.
Even just a short verse or two of key Scripture, which emphasizes the Gospel essence - and meditate on it some.
This is prayer.

And often in the day, I listen to the Gospel message.

It's very easy and comfortable.

[mvscal]

2. The evidence does not point to a round earth, spinning and also rotating around the sun.

Actually it does conclusively and incontrovertibly your personal ignorance and stupidity notwithstanding.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

...Genesis gives a very straightforward account...

Pre or post Peter Gabriel? There's a huge difference, you know.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

I once saw a magician saw a woman in half at the fair.
What manner of sorcery was this, that allowed a human being to be bisected, then reformed...fully alive?

[Jay in Phoenix]

2. The evidence does not point to a round earth, spinning and also rotating around the sun.

Actually it does conclusively and incontrovertibly your personal ignorance and stupidity notwithstanding.

Exactly. End of discussion.

[Jay in Phoenix]

I once saw a magician saw a woman in half at the fair.
What manner of sorcery was this, that allowed a human being to be bisected, then reformed...fully alive?

NO Marty, goddamit, NO!!!

You are invoking sorcery of unimaginable proportions! This is akin to the mages that perform psychic surgery, laying on hands to perform miracles of blood and skin! Healing touch and revival of flesh from the dead!!!

Wait a second...didn't I see that same crap on Penn and Teller?

Never mind.

[mvscal]

I once saw a magician saw a woman in half at the fair.
What manner of sorcery was this, that allowed a human being to be bisected, then reformed...fully alive?

Were you able to find out before you burned him at the stake?

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Were you able to find out before you burned him at the stake?

Burned?
Oh, you kidder!



We drowned him...just as the innards of the dead bird revealed to our haruspex.

[mvscal]

We drowned him...just as the innards of the dead bird revealed to our haruspex.

Wat mannar of peepel ar yew ast abay so lahrned in the weys o'psyince?

--popetard

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Yet more trickery from Satan (Abaddon), "The Father Of Lies"...






"For those who would bear his mark, shall forever dwell in darkness"

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

"He will come unto the world, a male child of Judea, bearing a porphyrous horn on his right temple. His reign will be the Reign of The Great Deceiver...The Anti-Christ..."

[mvscal]

Yet more trickery from Satan (Abaddon), "The Father Of Lies"...






"For those who would bear his mark, shall forever dwell in darkness"

Lucifer 6.66 "For those who would bear his mark, shall forever dwell in darkness"
Lucifer 6.67 "Where they shall chew lifesaver mints and worship the evil spark of the Deviil."

It's all so clear now.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Let us not speak of the wicked alchemy of mixing Coca Cola and Mentos.

[Jay in Phoenix]

And the porphyous horn of delusion shall be worn unto the deception of hand magic, thus deluding the multitudes as to thy bare witness of these magics, or thy slights of hands. So it is witnessed, so are we confused.

These are the witnesses, the 'tarts, the wagons, the sales and all other deluded souls as to the movements of hands.

Thy cups, they move mysteriously.

Thy cards, they have shifting faces.

Thy balls, they shrink and vanish.

Especially embracing questionable Scripture.

So it is written, so it is so.

You poor deluded dumbbells.

[poptart]

2. The evidence does not point to a round earth, spinning and also rotating around the sun.

Actually it does conclusively and incontrovertibly your personal ignorance and stupidity notwithstanding.

Exactly. End of discussion.

Sure seems as if you want to discuss many things, Jay.

[Carson]

Is it any mystery that the sorcerer Houdini died on Hallowe'en?

[poptart]

2. The evidence does not point to a round earth, spinning and also rotating around the sun.

Actually it does conclusively and incontrovertibly

You are a liar.
But that was already a given.

[Jay in Phoenix]

Sure seems as if you want to discuss many things, Jay.

Oh sure, when a topic is interesting. This has been entertaining to be sure, but now it's simply tedious.

Laying on hands and healing and any number of Biblical "miracles" can be boiled down to this.

Basic magic 101. Illusions and tricks have been used from the ancients until today to fool the masses.

A man can walk on water in a pool or the sea. A very simple and effective illusion.
Hands on healing is simple manipulation and sleight of hand.
Water to wine. Child's play.

Basic-simple-magic...tricks.

[mvscal]

2. The evidence does not point to a round earth, spinning and also rotating around the sun.

Actually it does conclusively and incontrovertibly

You are a liar.
But that was already a given.

Sorry, you're just a pitifully deluded dumbfuck.