T1B

What do you think of Arnie's propositions? We have a statewide special election coming up. He wants to punish teachers and make our kids suffer.

I've got my ballot filled out. Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes. 74, 75, 76, 77, 78.

No worry, the State Courts or the Ninth will simply overturn the will of the people anyway, :roll: .

Termination of Minor's Pregnancy. Waiting Period and Parental Notification. (Prop. 73)

Yes.

Public School Teachers. Waiting Period for Permanent Status. Dismissal. (Prop 74)
Increases length of time required before a teacher may become a permanent employee from two complete consecutive school years to five complete consecutive school years; measure applies to teachers whose probationary period commenced during or after the 2003-2004 fiscal year. Authorizes school boards to dismiss a permanent teaching employee who receives two consecutive unsatisfactory performance evaluations.

Yes.

Public Employee Union Dues. Required Employee Consent for Political Contributions. (Prop 75)

RACK Payroll Protection...especially since unions refuse to notify their members of their Beck rights and retaliate against members that demand specific accounting of union dues.

School Funding. State Spending. (Prop 75)
Changes state minimum school funding requirements (Proposition 98 ), permitting suspension of minimum funding, but terminating repayment requirement, and eliminating authority to reduce funding when state revenues decrease. Excludes above-minimum appropriations from schools' funding base. Limits state spending to prior year total plus revenue growth. Shifts excess revenues from schools/tax relief to budget reserve, specified construction, debt repayment. Requires Governor to reduce state appropriations, under specified circumstances, including employee compensation, state contracts. Continues prior year appropriations if new state budget delayed. Prohibits state special funds borrowing. Requires payment of local government mandates.

Yes.

Yep.

I'm a bit appalled at the teachers union downright LYING in their ads.

I expect teachers of all people to be honest.

Don't blame the teachers for the union's lying...they simply cannot control their union representatives.

Now on the other hand, blame the teachers 100% for their election of these union representatives.

Just like the Delphi issue...I blame the employees in that instance 100%. They knew exactly what their union reps were demanding and they followed lock-step.

While I'm a little sympathetic....it's great watching these people get theirs.

I vote no on all propositions. Government by proposition is idiotic and dangerous.

See You Next Wednesday wrote:I vote no on all propositions. Government by proposition is idiotic and dangerous.

So democracy sucks, eh?

DrDetroit wrote:

See You Next Wednesday wrote:I vote no on all propositions. Government by proposition is idiotic and dangerous.

So democracy sucks, eh?

That's not Democracy, that's Gerrymardering the vote.

sin

The abortion proposition

Exactly how do yuo "gerrymander" a vote?? LMAO!!

So you agree, too, that democracy sucks, eh??

DrDetroit wrote:Exactly how do yuo "gerrymander" a vote??

By putting a proposition on the ballot designed to get a bunch of single issue Nazis to turn out in droves.

DrDetroit wrote:

See You Next Wednesday wrote:I vote no on all propositions. Government by proposition is idiotic and dangerous.

So democracy sucks, eh?

Nope, but it ain't perfect and allowing folks to vote on law and policy without knowing the full consequences, how it works in concert with other laws ansd issues etc. is not good. We have a representative democracy for a reason, because the politicians are supposed to be the ones spending their time and efforts determining which laws and how these laws should be made. I am no pollyanna that think the governement in Sacramento is acting in our best interests by any stretch, but I certainly do not see how laws made through the proposition process is going to lead to any more favorable results. Folks need to take responsibility in electing their representatives. And ideally there is really little governemet interference at all.

Gerrymardering the vote

Actually quite the opposite

PROPOSITION 77

REDISTRICTING. INITIATIVE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT.

* Amends process for redistricting California’s Senate, Assembly, Congressional and Board of Equalization districts.
* Requires panel of three retired judges, selected by legislative leaders, to adopt new redistricting plan if measure passes and after each national census.
* Panel must consider legislative, public comments/hold public hearings.
* Redistricting plan effective when adopted by panel and filed with Secretary of State; governs next statewide primary/general elections even if voters reject plan.
* If voters reject redistricting plan, process repeats, but officials elected under rejected plan serve full terms.
* Allows 45 days to seek judicial review of adopted redistricting plan.

The legislature is scared shitless by this one. It takes the redistricting process out of the hands of the legislature who benefit the most when they make up there own special districts to assure "safe" districts for candidates.

BSmack wrote:

DrDetroit wrote:Exactly how do yuo "gerrymander" a vote??

By putting a proposition on the ballot designed to get a bunch of single issue Nazis to turn out in droves.

You feel the same way about assisted suicide proposals and affirmative action proposals.

Nonetheless, I disagree. It's a direct line to the government when legislators fail to represent the interests of the people.

See You Next Wednesday wrote:Nope, but it ain't perfect and allowing folks to vote on law and policy without knowing the full consequences, how it works in concert with other laws ansd issues etc. is not good.

That's somehow different from state and national legislators??

We have a representative democracy for a reason, because the politicians are supposed to be the ones spending their time and efforts determining which laws and how these laws should be made.

The Founding Fathers disagreed with you as does every state.

I am no pollyanna that think the governement in Sacramento is acting in our best interests by any stretch, but I certainly do not see how laws made through the proposition process is going to lead to any more favorable results. Folks need to take responsibility in electing their representatives. And ideally there is really little governemet interference at all.

Unfortunately, even after elections, legislators fail to represent their constituents and we also know that the Courts will also stick their nose in to write legislation and overturn propositions.

California has to do something. And they are doing it. Rack Arnold.

I hope the unions lose lose lose.

PSU is a flaming liberal and can go suck himself.

trev wrote:PSU is a flaming liberal and can go suck himself.

I'm sure that would cut into his posting.

Even if Prop 75 wins the Governator and most of the Legislature will remain in the pocket of the Prison Guards' Union. In spite of the constant hate spouted at the Teachers, the Guards wield a lot more political clout and are a much bigger problem.

Arnold is in the Guard union's pocket? How so? I thought Grey sold out the state in that contract. How's Arnold implicated in that? Just curious is all...tia.

DrDetroit wrote:

See You Next Wednesday wrote:Nope, but it ain't perfect and allowing folks to vote on law and policy without knowing the full consequences, how it works in concert with other laws ansd issues etc. is not good.

That's somehow different from state and national legislators??

Well it is their JOB and the JOB of their staff, as opposed to Joe Sixpack who will probably know as much about it as he sees on TV commercials.

We have a representative democracy for a reason, because the politicians are supposed to be the ones spending their time and efforts determining which laws and how these laws should be made.

The Founding Fathers disagreed with you as does every state.

The Founding Fathers lived in a completely different time when government was local and much, much, much smaller. Yet they also didn't create allowances for Propostions within the Constitution now did they? They created a Representative Democracy.

Who cares what every state does, I don't like it.

I am no pollyanna that think the governement in Sacramento is acting in our best interests by any stretch, but I certainly do not see how laws made through the proposition process is going to lead to any more favorable results. Folks need to take responsibility in electing their representatives. And ideally there is really little governemet interference at all.

Unfortunately, even after elections, legislators fail to represent their constituents and we also know that the Courts will also stick their nose in to write legislation and overturn propositions.

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but I do think the Proposition process is not better, more often than not it is worse and it actually lets legislators off the hook.

73 - yes
74 - yes
75 - yes
76 - yes
77 - yes

Whack Schwarzeneggar all you want, but at least the guy is trying. That's more than I can say for Davis, Bustamante, the legislature, et al.

War prop 75. The campaign run by the CTA is precisely why this issue must pass. They've blown more than 80 million dollars of the teachers' cash on this campaign without consulting them. In addition to the money already in the coffers, they've borrowed $20 million to restructure their previous debt, imposed a non-negotiable $60 increase on union dues per teacher every year for three years (which has already been spent), and are now on the verge of bankruptcy.

SYNW, government by proposition may be muddied waters, but can you imagine where we'd be if we left it all up to the legislature?

DrDetroit wrote:Arnold is in the Guard union's pocket? How so? I thought Grey sold out the state in that contract. How's Arnold implicated in that? Just curious is all...tia.

You're right. It was Davis that basically sold out the state to the Correctional Officers Union. Ahnold promised to fight "special interests", and this is probably the most powerful one in the state, and he has really failed so far to do anything about it.

Maybe this initiative is the one big chance to do something about it, but personally I'd rather see the CO Union taken on individually and this is just too big of a big of a sledge hammer with a lot of collateral damage.

Well it is their JOB and the JOB of their staff, as opposed to Joe Sixpack who will probably know as much about it as he sees on TV commercials.

So then I presume you agree with me that legislators who vote on legislation are not similarly aware of the potential consequences, interaction with other laws, etc.? Well, then spare us the nonsense about it being their job.

I have faith in the system. I bet you're one of those guys who bitches, too, about the small turnout for school board elections and that the results of those elections are not representative of the total voting population. Well, so what? It's the law and it's the system. Get involved.

The Founding Fathers lived in a completely different time when government was local and much, much, much smaller. Yet they also didn't create allowances for Propostions within the Constitution now did they? They created a Representative Democracy.

Uh, did you forget about the constitutional amendment process?

Who cares what every state does, I don't like it.

Well, ignore the point and you don't have to deal with it, right? Wrong.

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but I do think the Proposition process is not better, more often than not it is worse and it actually lets legislators off the hook.

Despite the federal and state laws prohibiting discrimination on the basis of race, gender, ethnicity, it took a proposition in California for it actually to happen. Why? Because the legislature and the courts consistently ignored the law and the people were fed up with it. This is why the proposition process is good.

Mikey wrote:

DrDetroit wrote:Arnold is in the Guard union's pocket? How so? I thought Grey sold out the state in that contract. How's Arnold implicated in that? Just curious is all...tia.

You're right. It was Davis that basically sold out the state to the Correctional Officers Union. Ahnold promised to fight "special interests", and this is probably the most powerful one in the state, and he has really failed so far to do anything about it.

Maybe this initiative is the one big chance to do something about it, but personally I'd rather see the CO Union taken on individually and this is just too big of a big of a sledge hammer with a lot of collateral damage.

Okay, however, he really cannot deal with them until the contract is ready to expire, right? That might explain why no deliberate/overt action has been taken. On the other hand, has there been a indication that Arnold will seek to take them on when that contract does expire?

The problem with the initiative system is that most people voting on them don't read them. All they know is what they see on TV, which is usually totally skewed by both sides. The voters are also not generally in a position to know what the actual fiscal results of any intiative will be. If it sounds good they vote for it.

The result is usually that whoever spends the most money wins.

Mikey wrote:The problem with the initiative system is that most people voting on them don't read them. All they know is what they see on TV, which is usually totally skewed by both sides. The voters are also not generally in a position to know what the actual fiscal results of any intiative will be. If it sounds good they vote for it.

The result is usually that whoever spends the most money wins.

Arnie's got 50 million reasons why you are right.

PS: The water is muddy.

Variable wrote:SYNW, government by proposition may be muddied waters, but can you imagine where we'd be if we left it all up to the legislature?

And Propositions are written and placed on the ballot by whom?

The wirters of a ballot measure can influence it's outcome (to some extent) by how a Proposition is worded. They can say it is in the hands of the voters, but the legislature still controls the measures content.

Our system of Government is neither perfect nor is it set in stone.

mvscal wrote:

Mikey wrote:The problem with the initiative system is that most people voting on them don't read them. All they know is what they see on TV, which is usually totally skewed by both sides. The voters are also not generally in a position to know what the actual fiscal results of any intiative will be. If it sounds good they vote for it.

The result is usually that whoever spends the most money wins.

You say that as if legislators actually read or understand the bills they vote for.

Ideally, at least they should have somebody to read the bills and explain at a fifth grade level of understanding.

Mikey wrote:The problem with the initiative system is that most people voting on them don't read them. All they know is what they see on TV, which is usually totally skewed by both sides.

How the fuck do you know what they read/know/otherwise? Typical liberal arrogance.

And you don't think that the issues, proposed resolutons, and projected outcomes are not similarly spun by lobbyists in every state legislature and the US Congress?

The voters are also not generally in a position to know what the actual fiscal results of any intiative will be. If it sounds good they vote for it.

Neither are state or national legislators, typically becuase they use bullshit static analysis.

Hence, like I already stated, state and national legislators are in the very same position.

Why do yuo guys act like legislators have perfect information?

The result is usually that whoever spends the most money wins.

How do you explain California Prop. 13 or Prop. 187 or Prop. 207. These were heavily funded by opposition groups, yet...well?

The Whistle Is Screaming wrote:

Variable wrote:SYNW, government by proposition may be muddied waters, but can you imagine where we'd be if we left it all up to the legislature?

And Propositions are written and placed on the ballot by whom?

Petition drives and then the language that appeasr on the ballot is approved by an independent election commission.

The wirters of a ballot measure can influence it's outcome (to some extent) by how a Proposition is worded.

Wrong. See above.

They can say it is in the hands of the voters, but the legislature still controls the measures content.

Wrong.

Our system of Government is neither perfect nor is it set in stone.

You're right, it is not set in stone, hence the recall initiatives at the federal, state, and local levels and the constitutional amendment and proposition process at both the federal and state levels.

Mikey wrote:

mvscal wrote:

Mikey wrote:The problem with the initiative system is that most people voting on them don't read them. All they know is what they see on TV, which is usually totally skewed by both sides. The voters are also not generally in a position to know what the actual fiscal results of any intiative will be. If it sounds good they vote for it.

The result is usually that whoever spends the most money wins.

You say that as if legislators actually read or understand the bills they vote for.

Ideally, at least they should have somebody to read the bills and explain at a fifth grade level of understanding.

But you do know that legislators rarely read the bills before casting votes...hell, we all already know this.

The situation here in California is not unique but a telling example of a State Government that has completely lost touch with the concerns and needs of it's citizens by selling itself out to special interest groups without any consideration of the financial or social impact on it's people. The average so called "Joe Six Pack" here in the Golden State is a moderate Democrat usually resideing in the populous urban areas of the state. They have for quite some time now dictated policy and it's a complete failure as the representatives they bring to Sacramento are mindless Union and Special Interest Lackeys and are bought and paid for with moneys collected without being representative of it's members as a whole. In a utopian world we wouldn't need Propositions to reform and tame a Government but reality here is quite different. These Propositions do nothing more than give rights due voters for quite some time, it's comical watching the cliques of special intrest scream like spoiled brats because their being asked to be held accountable for a change.

Yes across the board.

The wirters of a ballot measure can influence it's outcome (to some extent) by how a Proposition is worded.

No, as Dr.D said, they have to be very truthful on the ballot or the commission with throw the bullshit flag. Where they can and do take incredible liberties though is with the ads they run. They can basically say whatever they want, even if it's patently false.

For instance, Schwarzeneggar helped draft a bill that was poorly and broadly worded earlier this year that could potentially have resulted in firefighter families being denied death benfits for FF's killed while on duty. It was immediately shelved. That didn't stop the opponents of all of Schwarzeneggar's propositions from running ads saying, "After the Governor tried to deny death benefits to the families of firefighters..."

Yeah, that aspect of the proposition system blows, but I like the system because it gives the people the power of change where the government fails.

trev wrote:California has to do something. And they are doing it. Rack Arnold.

I hope the unions lose lose lose.

PSU is a flaming liberal and can go suck himself.

bwahahahaha! Trev wanted a politico thread, all right. Good analysis there!

Y2K wrote:The situation here in California is not unique but a telling example of a State Government that has completely lost touch with the concerns and needs of it's citizens by selling itself out to special interest groups without any consideration of the financial or social impact on it's people. The average so called "Joe Six Pack" here in the Golden State is a moderate Democrat usually resideing in the populous urban areas of the state. They have for quite some time now dictated policy and it's a complete failure as the representatives they bring to Sacramento are mindless Union and Special Interest Lackeys and are bought and paid for with moneys collected without being representative of it's members as a whole. In a utopian world we wouldn't need Propositions to reform and tame a Government but reality here is quite different. These Propositions do nothing more than give rights due voters for quite some time, it's comical watching the cliques of special intrest scream like spoiled brats because their being asked to be held accountable for a change.

Yes across the board.

RACK that entire post. Very well said.

DrDetroit wrote:No worry, the State Courts or the Ninth will simply overturn the will of the people anyway, :roll: .

^^^^^^^
WORD!

additionally the Unions have spent $180 million on slanderous untruthful ad's opposing the measures. This Blue state likes government just as it is. Arnold is trying to change it and the Left whacko's have pooled and pulled out all stops to keep Suckramento status quo!


The "Right"

http://sclblog.com/2005/10/04/propositi ... lling-well


The "Left"

http://csalc.org/

ChargerMike wrote:

DrDetroit wrote:No worry, the State Courts or the Ninth will simply overturn the will of the people anyway, :roll: .

^^^^^^^
WORD!

additionally the Unions have spent $180 million on slanderous untruthful ad's opposing the measures. This Blue state likes government just as it is. Arnold is trying to change it and the Left whacko's have pooled and pulled out all stops to keep Suckramento status quo!

You mean like Ahnold hiring actors to portray union members in the pro measure ads?

Mikey wrote:

ChargerMike wrote:

DrDetroit wrote:No worry, the State Courts or the Ninth will simply overturn the will of the people anyway, :roll: .

^^^^^^^
WORD!

additionally the Unions have spent $180 million on slanderous untruthful ad's opposing the measures. This Blue state likes government just as it is. Arnold is trying to change it and the Left whacko's have pooled and pulled out all stops to keep Suckramento status quo!

You mean like Ahnold hiring actors to portray union members in the pro measure ads?

:?

Havn't seen that as far as I know? I have seen teacher's firemen, and postal workers in Arnolds ad's rebutting the union ad's.

Variable wrote:73 - yes
74 - yes
75 - yes
76 - yes
77 - yes

RACK


and RACK Trev and Y2K

ChargerMike wrote: Havn't seen that as far as I know? I have seen teacher's firemen, and postal workers in Arnolds ad's rebutting the union ad's.

Word. Heard on the radio the other day (so it must be true) that one reason the union is shitting it's pants so badly on 75 is that they did an internal poll of CA gov't employees and roughly 60% said they were voting "Yes" on 75.

Variable wrote:

ChargerMike wrote: Havn't seen that as far as I know? I have seen teacher's firemen, and postal workers in Arnolds ad's rebutting the union ad's.

Word. Heard on the radio the other day (so it must be true) that one reason the union is shitting it's pants so badly on 75 is that they did an internal poll of CA gov't employees and roughly 60% said they were voting "Yes" on 75.

Oh yea! Well I heard that Prop 75 has the Dems so worried that Barbara Boxer has dispensed with her human form and taken her true form as the Antichrist.