T1B

Josef V. Stalin's lessons for the anti-imperialist forces!

Key Excerpt From 'The Foundations of Leninism'.


The revolutionary character of a national movement under the conditions
of imperialist oppression does not necessarily presuppose the
existence of proletarian elements in the movement, the existence of a
revolutionary or a republican programme of the movement, the
existence of a democratic basis of the movement.

The stuggle that the Emir of Afghanistan is waging for the independence of Afghanistan is objectively
a revolutionary struggle, despite the monarchist
views of the Emir and his associates, for it weakens, disintegrates
and undermines imperialism; whereas the struggle waged by
such "desperate" democrats and "Socialists," "revolutionaries" and
republicans as, for example, Kerensky and Tsereteli,
Renaudel and Scheidemann, Chernov and Dan, Henderson and Clynes,
during the imperialist war was a reactionary struggle, for its
result was the embellishment, the strengthening, the victory, of
imperialism.

For the same reasons, the struggle that the Egyptian
merchants and bourgeois intellectuals are waging for the independence
of Egypt is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the
bourgeois origin and bourgeois title of the leaders of the Egyptian
national movement, despite the fact that they are opposed to
socialism; whereas the struggle that the British "Labour" Government
is waging to preserve Egypt's dependent position is for the same
reasons a *reactionary* struggle, despite the proletarian origin and
the proletarian title of the members of that government, despite the
fact that they are "for" socialism.

There is no need to mention the
national movement in other, larger colonial
and dependent countries, such as India and China, every step of which
along the road to liberation, even if it runs counter to the demands
of formal democracy, is a steam-hammer blow at imperialism, i.e., is
undoubtedly a revolutionary step."

- J. V. Stalin. 'The Foundations of Leninism,'

ch.vi "the national question".

RACK Uncle Joe!


"The revolutionary character of a national movement under the conditions
of imperialist oppression does not necessarily presuppose the
existence of proletarian elements in the movement...

Nice.

A brilliant find, that.

All the place names are the same, the same characters but with different actors. The bit about the hypocrisy and reactionary nature of British Labour is marvellous.

RACK Uncle Joe!

Perhaps not, to a pedant.

If it was a national movement then the iraqi people would not have voted for a democracy by such a large majority.

Mister Bushice wrote:If it was a national movement then the iraqi people would not have voted for a democracy by such a large majority.

Stop drinking from OCMike's water bottle.

every step of which
along the road to liberation, even if it runs counter to the demands
of formal democracy, is a steam-hammer blow at imperialism, i.e., is
undoubtedly a revolutionary step."

One thing I think we can agree on is, Words Are Cheap.

Pinko Revolutionary Steps???
Where did they lead???

To employment for all:
http://msms.essortment.com/historyrussiag_rfpb.htm


To freedom for all:
http://english.epochtimes.com/news/5-10-21/33602.html


To hell for all except the leadership. :(

AND CAN YOU BELIEVE That Mans Words Have Become Even More Cheaper By The Minute?

Good Luck with the struggle, Fool


TICK TOCK

tough love wrote: To freedom for all:
http://english.epochtimes.com/news/5-10-21/33602.html

You're really pushing that Falun Gong horseshit, aren't you Tina?

What's the matter? Slow news day for the Moonies, Branch Davidians and Solar Temple?

PM me if you need de-programming.

Red Rash Wrote:
You're really pushing that Falun Gong horseshit, aren't you Tina?
What's the matter? Slow news day for the Moonies, Branch Davidians and Solar Temple?

PM me if you need de-programming.

China eats it's young, for chirsts sake, and if anyone needs a good de-p-ing, it's you and internet pinko dreamer #2.

When it comes to the 'what is' of that China matter, I reacon it's best to go with someone who has actually been there rather then some oblivious know nothing wanna be fool.

Enjoy your Dream State, all the same. :wink:

http://news.sbs.com.au/dateline/index.p ... ineid=1032

More Falun Gong mind control.

Tell the truth, Tina.
Are you a member of the Falun Gong cult.

To any members of the board who don't know about the Falun Gong, a quick Google search will reveal Tina's panting desperation to cast them as *cough* victims of religious persecution *cough*.

Real nice "hero" you two have there.


sin, The Peasants..

Martyred wrote:More Falun Gong mind control.

Tell the truth, Tina.
Are you a member of the Falun Gong cult.

To any members of the board who don't know about the Falun Gong, a quick Google search will reveal Tina's panting desperation to cast them as *cough* victims of religious persecution *cough*.

It's Feng Shui you ass-rabbit and don't you fucking forget it

Red Rash Wrote:
More Falun Gong mind control.

Tell the truth, Tina.
Are you a member of the Falun Gong cult.

To any members of the board who don't know about the Falun Gong, a quick Google search will reveal Tina's panting desperation to cast them as *cough* victims of religious persecution *cough*.

Dear Sad and Sorry Comrade Internet Pinko Stooge;
Perhaps those who practice Falun Gong and I are related in the belief of how Christs message of peace and love can set us all free; still 'the what is' *cough* of 'the China matter' *cough* were not my words, but those of someone who has actually been there in REAL LIFE.:

Link Wrote:
Han Guansheng ran four labour camps and two prisons in China, making him one of the highest-ranking defectors to have emerged. In his first in-depth television interview, Han confirms what other dissidents have been saying for years that the laogai are hell on earth.

But why let facts get in the way of you pimping your Dream State.

Carry On, Fool.

I always thought there was a chance you played up the "stupid" thing for the internet, Tina...

I never pegged you for a bonafide cultist.

Quoting one of history's proven mass murderers and agreeing with him isn't exactly the best way to win converts.

Stalin was a paranoid, evil asswipe.

^
That's right, Red tRash, I am the reason that your system of choice sucks much awful.


And I pegged you for having half a brain; oh well my bad, go ahead and add that to my "stupid", whydon'tyah?



Then there was the poor sucker who was executed for throwing a stick onto a tiananmen square protest fire.

My fault as well. :)

Mike, if you consider rotton cliches - repeated over and over and over again, as 'proof', then so be it. The Soviet Union became bogged down with beurocrats, so it's safe to say the the Unions archives are impeccable and the only place one might use as a resource. These are now public, easy to find - or I can provide you with credible numbers regarding the prison system.

Tough Love, you contradicted yourself in this thread no less then five fucking times that I've counted, you're worse than Mv.. Take it to the 'Medieval Ghost Story' forum.

To refer to Stalin's millions of victims as "cliches" is the height of either arrogance or political blindness.

The fact is that through his purges and his failed economic policies, he killed millions.

This is indisputable, no matter how you brainwashed puppets of his failed ideology try to spin it.

My in-laws hail from the Ukraine on mom-in-law's side. She's pretty damned sure that her family history is more than a damned cliche.

Sure as hell trumps any leftist professor's rants or commie handbill in my book...

Marty Wrote:
More Falun Gong mind control.

Tell the truth, Tina.
Are you a member of the Falun Gong cult.

To any members of the board who don't know about the Falun Gong, a quick Google search will reveal Tina's panting desperation to cast them as *cough* victims of religious persecution *cough*.

Dr_Phibes Wrote;
Tough Love, you contradicted yourself in this thread no less then five fucking times that I've counted, you're worse than Mv.. Take it to the 'Medieval Ghost Story' forum.

I get it; if you can't refute the god awful truth, deflect and deflect.

Truth is; the experiment of communism has proved to be a most brutal and horrid failure in humanity.
Need not take my word for it, nor should anyone take the pink glossings of a couple of key_bored dreamers either.

Best to go with what some who have been there in REAL LIFE have to say about that man crap.

For Example:

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Chen Yong Lin
Han Guansheng


I reacon it's not so much the system, but mans inability to honestly maintain it over time?

Pinkos can take heart in this...A rightous socialism of a divine nature will be the system of choice when the God Son of Man proclaims his kingdom on earth FOR ALL.

There will be joy where there is none...Oh Happy Days

TICK TOCK

tough love wrote: ...when the God Son of Man proclaims his kingdom on earth FOR ALL.

Are you talking about this whack-job...

In his lectures, Li Hongzhi also controversially suggests that different races bear the image of the gods that created them and that each race of people on earth have their own cosmic paradises, but that people of mixed race are "defective persons" and do not. Li said, "Anybody who does not belong to his race will not be cared for. I do not just say that. It is really true. I am revealing the secret of heaven to you."

...and...

"Li says a “supreme being” commissioned him to come to earth and save humanity from its corrupted morals and from the technological evils of science."

Here's your wonderful cult, Tina, in the words of
The Christian Research Institute

I won't keep you waiting, as I understand you have a comet to catch, but good luck with all that.

They all should all be burnt and electrocuted to death - The Red tRash Train.

tough love wrote:Pinkos can take heart in this...A rightous socialism of a divine nature will be the system of choice when the God Son of Man proclaims his kingdom on earth FOR ALL.

Most people think great God will come from the sky
Take away ev'rything, and make ev'rybody feel high
But if you know what life is worth
You would look for yours on earth
And now you see the light
You stand up for your right

Most people think great God will come from the sky
Take away ev'rything, and make ev'rybody feel high
But if you know what life is worth
You would look for yours on earth
And now you see the light
You stand up for your right

There is both.

One can fully expect the arrival of Gods Kingdom to be established here on earth, as well as choose to respect all others right to believe in that which coincides with the respect and love for their creator and their fellow man.

F_in pieces of shit Man_Craps like the commie hate and murder of everyone and everything which does not adhere to their personal version of 'the what is' get's a pass.

tough love wrote:

Most people think great God will come from the sky
Take away ev'rything, and make ev'rybody feel high
But if you know what life is worth
You would look for yours on earth
And now you see the light
You stand up for your right

There is both.

One can fully expect the arrival of Gods Kingdom to be established here on earth, as well as choose to respect all others right to believe in that which coincides with the respect and love for their creator and their fellow man.

F_in pieces of shit Man_Craps like the commie hate and murder of everyone and everything which does not adhere to their personal version of 'the what is' get's a pass.

You still don't get it. What Tosh was saying was a continuation of Christ's admoinition to "render unto Ceasar". You see, what is here on earth needs to be handled here on Earth. Not by a reliance on some unknown outside force whose existence is merely an article of faith.

PS: If you need someone to explain who Peter Tosh is, you need to get the fuck out of this thread and down to a music store. Or at least a Limewire connection.

BS Wrote:
PS: If you need someone to explain who Peter Tosh is, you need to get the fuck out of this thread and down to a music store. Or at least a Limewire connection.

So says your demon.
Mine says, 'go fuck yourself with Peter Tosh's dick', you humanist piece of crap. :twisted:

tough love wrote:

BS Wrote:
PS: If you need someone to explain who Peter Tosh is, you need to get the fuck out of this thread and down to a music store. Or at least a Limewire connection.

So says your demon.
Mine says, 'go fuck yourself with Peter Tosh's dick', you humanist piece of crap. :twisted:

You are slowly turning into a tragedy.

"...And now you see the light...you've got to stand up for your right"


For all the talk about "drinking the Kool-Aid" that goes on in Spin Zone,
you may actually be the first troll to literally drink the Kool-Aid.

Good luck with your "mystical" cult.

Marty Wrote:
Good luck with your "mystical" ~Rolling Eyes~ cult

It's not my ~Rolling Eyes~ cult, M, but thanks for the thought, and right back at you with that imprisonment, torture, and murder thingy your into.

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:To refer to Stalin's millions of victims as "cliches" is the height of either arrogance or political blindness.

The fact is that through his purges and his failed economic policies, he killed millions.

This is indisputable, no matter how you brainwashed puppets of his failed ideology try to spin it.

My in-laws hail from the Ukraine on mom-in-law's side. She's pretty damned sure that her family history is more than a damned cliche.

Sure as hell trumps any leftist professor's rants or commie handbill in my book...

Well give the man some credit. Managing the Union by day and donning a cape with fangs by night would tax even the most dedicated Socialist. And which purge are you refering to? So many to choose from.. the officer corps? He did manage to kill 300,000 officers from a corps of 130,000. Evil incarnate, I say.

The fact is

In other words you are not interested in discussing the factuality of the 'facts', only dogmatically asserting counterfactuals without any argument whatsoever, as is your usual habit no matter what the topic of discussion be.

And do tell, what trickery did Baba get up to? I had a relative in Cheektowaga who had a horrible time at the post office years ago... murdering Eisenhower bastard.

Diogenes wrote:So what have we learned here?

B_Suck believes Peter Tosh to be a philisophical guru.

Phibes is stealing a page from the 'Jews invented the Holocaust' crowd.





And Marty thinks CRI is the source of all wisdom.



ARCHIVE!

Say what you want about other people, but you are the crazy fuck that bolds his posts and believes that Saddam bombed Oklahoma. Fucking nutjob!

Dr_Phibes wrote:

The fact is

In other words you are not interested in discussing the factuality of the 'facts', only dogmatically asserting counterfactuals without any argument whatsoever, as is your usual habit no matter what the topic of discussion be.

First off, you apparently have no idea what the hell you're talking about if you're contending that my "usual habit" is "dogmatically asserting counterfactuals without any argument." In debates and discussions on numerous topics, especially regarding HIV, the nature of scientific research, education, evolution, the Bills, I sure as hell have done more than posit an opinion and stand pat.

You've yet to provide a single link or supported counter to the FACT that Stalin is one of the worst mass murderers in history. All I'd have to do to support the WORLD'S argument is do a freaking google search on the man's name - any biography or historyof Stalin mentions somewhere the gory details of his crimes againts humanity. You,. on the other hand, would be hard-pressed to find links that weren't from your commie revisionist buds that supports your contention that Stalin was anything but an evil thug.

Hell, if anyone around here is "dogmatic," it's you, with your intellectually embarrassing (and intellectually dishonest but oh-so-fashionably-controversial) support of a discredited and failed economic system that has mass murderers like Mao and Stalin as its poster boys. Hell, even one of your "ginchiest" models for recruitment, Che, was a coward and murderer.

I've basically come to the conclusion that since no one is his right mind could think that Stalin or Mao were anything but blights on humanity, you must be nothing but a commie-posing troll just out to stir the shit on a political discussion board. Kind of like a faux Holocaust-denier out to get a rise out of folks.

Gunslinger wrote:

Diogenes wrote:So what have we learned here?

B_Suck believes Peter Tosh to be a philisophical guru.

Phibes is stealing a page from the 'Jews invented the Holocaust' crowd.





And Marty thinks CRI is the source of all wisdom.



ARCHIVE!

Say what you want about other people, but you are the crazy fuck that bolds his posts and believes that Saddam bombed Oklahoma. Fucking nutjob!

And Rawhide is still obsessed with me.



And still a fucking idiot.















Wait, we already knew that....

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:........

I'm basing that on what I've read in Spin Zone. You fire off accusations about murder, genocide, etc. Case in point:

even one of your "ginchiest" models for recruitment,

It seems to me that you have a problem with the image of Che being marketed on T-shirts, etc. This seems more like something you should take up with an advertiser, or marketing firm. Why do you hate Capitalism?

Che, was a coward"

Untrue. Among other things, Che went to Africa to fight in a war. People who cross large bodies of water with the specific intention of fighting and shooting other people when they get to the other side, cannot be called 'cowards.'

and murderer

Applying the term 'murderer' to one side of a military struggle is entirely political and subjective - it's the language of a propagandist. It speaks volumes as to whom you support and little else.

When you call Stalin a 'mass murderer', you are simply parrotting a media smear campaign launched by Hearst and now accepted as fact in North America through endless repetition. Here are the numbers from the prison system as it existed under Stalin - found in the archives of the Soviet Union and published in the US as "Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Prewar Years: A First Approach on the Basis of Archival Evidence," American Historical Review, in Oct. 1993.



Hardly sixty gazillion.

You can link to a thousand sites on the internet, the fact remains that they all come from the same source: Hearst, so they are irrellevant.

(note the massive spikes in the years 1933, 1942 and 1943 - directly reflecting the Great Famine and the worst of the Second World War.)

You throw out accusations about famine in the Ukraine with no mention of the natural disasters that occured - wiping out the existing crops. At the same time - you would include the Kulaks as victims of Stalin, who were liquidated as a class for rampaging through the country destroying all livestock and food stores in order to prevent food from being collectively distributed during the famine.

You say that Socialism cannot work. Marx defines Socialism as:

1) the means of production are owned collectively by the workers;

2) this class of workers holds political power by controlling the state apparatus;

3) production is planned by the state; and

4) exploitation -- the process of living partly or wholly on the labour of others -- has been eliminated.

In the Soviet Union, these conditions existed only under Stalin - and the success, living standards and power of the Union under his guidance is unquestionable. Anything after Stalin - is laid squarley upon the shoulders of Capitalism as Khrushchev eliminated these preconditions through economic reform. Here is an interesting disection:

http://www.oneparty.co.uk/html/book/ussrmenu.html

It's written by a Communist - but I think you'll find his method and sources acceptable.

These situations are never simple, never so clear cut and cannot fit on the front of a T-shirt as you would have them. Deep analysis is to be avoided by people like you in favour of repeating mindless quasi-religious slogans like 'freedom and democray'. - because your version of history is a bucket of shit that cannot stand in the light of day.

Irrelevance Personified wrote:You can link to a thousand sites on the internet, the fact remains that they all come from the same source: Hearst, so they are irrellevant.

Irony.

Dr_Phibes wrote:I'm basing that on what I've read in Spin Zone.

Bullshit. With the exception of a discussion of HIV, many of the discussions I've cited occurred IN Spin Zone. In fact, one of my first dialogues with Dr. Detroit occurred right in this very forum, when he and I debated the nature of teacher contracts and curriculum.

It seems to me that you have a problem with the image of Che being marketed on T-shirts, etc. This seems more like something you should take up with an advertiser, or marketing firm.

I only have a problem with it insofar as those kids sporting Che's image have no idea what a reprehensible scumbag he was. The kids aren't wearing the shirt as anything other than a trendy fashion statement to seem enlightened...but are in fact displaying their ignorance.

Che, was a coward"

Untrue. Among other things, Che went to Africa to fight in a war. People who cross large bodies of water with the specific intention of fighting and shooting other people when they get to the other side, cannot be called 'cowards.'

Che's cruelty during his tenure running La Cabaña proved him a coward hundreds of times over.

Applying the term 'murderer' to one side of a military struggle is entirely political and subjective - it's the language of a propagandist. It speaks volumes as to whom you support and little else.

Stalin killed innocents. So did Mao. So did Che.

When you call Stalin a 'mass murderer', you are simply parrotting a media smear campaign launched by Hearst and now accepted as fact in North America through endless repetition.

Try to tell me that this source is 100% Hearst-reliant. To do so would be an outright lie.

You can link to a thousand sites on the internet, the fact remains that they all come from the same source: Hearst, so they are irrellevant.

To state as a blanket statement that any and all sites condemning Stalin all have as their ultimate and only source William Randolp Hearst only displays your complete and total willingness to abandon reason to your communist doctrine. You are so completelly brainwashed by commie propaganda that you've subscribed to parroting the party line that all evidence contrary to party belief MUST be false.

You throw out accusations about famine in the Ukraine with no mention of the natural disasters that occured - wiping out the existing crops.

Actually, Stalin's love affair with Lysenko's idiotic biological theories had a lot more to do with crop failure than "natural disasters....but then I suppose you'll next be telling us that biologists are also all conspiring to smear Stalin....

You say that Socialism cannot work.

Yep. History has shown it time and again.

the success, living standards and power of the Union under his guidance is unquestionable.

Starvation, technological and intellectual stagnation, repression of free speech, religion, and the press...

Your status as an obvious troll gets clearer and clearer...

I quite clearly said that Hearst 'launched' the smear campaign regarding the famine in the Ukraine - he got the ball rolling. And by you bringing up Rummel's method of 'Democide', you're on extremely thin ice. You're swinging wildly between arguements, you've left the Gulags and adopted Rummel while I'm sticking to statistics from official archives.

I don't necessarily disagree with his ideas, but if you're going to take that route, you're prone to errors and you leave the doors wide open to British 'capitalism' killing thirty million people in India - American 'capitalism' killing well over three million people in Viet Nam, Saddam killing three hundred thousand etc, etc. By following Rummel we would quickly find that Communism is the lesser evil in terms of body counts.

And yes, thus far, most Communist states have failed to survive the long term - but that's no surprise. It always emerges from a war torn state where it's quite fragile and the sustained attack that it's subjected to by Capitalism from conception have proven too strong to overcome in the long distance.
Having said that, you will never be rid of it. Korea is strong as is Cuba, China is an oddity, it will be interesting to see which way it goes, the United States is confused and lashing out in all directions and South America is speeding into a Socialist economy. The minute you stamp it out in one place, it pops up again somewhere else. And how long did it take Capitalism to consolidate it's power? Centuries.

Starvation, technological and intellectual stagnation, repression of free speech, religion, and the press...

Your status as an obvious troll gets clearer and clearer...

I find this funny - you would ignore the achievements of Stalin - the increase in life expectancy across the board, the public ownership of productive forces, priority placed on human services, the elevated status of women, support of national liberation struggles, rapid industrialization, reduction of economic inequalities, and the role a socialist alternative played in you're own civil rights movement. And as for a troll... it's obvious that you travel in some fairly diverse circles, Mike.

In the future there will be fewer but better Russians.

sin

Joseph Stalin

BTW: It should be noted that most American corporations has adopted that mantra in regards to their hiring practices.

Fighting fire with fire a little too extreme, eh Lefty?

Dr_Phibes wrote:Fighting fire with fire a little too extreme, eh Lefty?

Just wondering how "Communist" Joe Stalin was.

BSmack wrote: Just wondering how "Communist" Joe Stalin was.

Christ B! Try going at it with a Trotskyite sometime. Trust me, it's not fun - it's work.