More on the Muslim cartoon flap

It's the 19th Anniversary for T1B - Fuckin' A

Moderator: Jesus H Christ

Post Reply
User avatar
RadioFan
Liberal Media Conspirator
Posts: 7487
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:59 am
Location: Tulsa

More on the Muslim cartoon flap

Post by RadioFan »

This ran a couple of weeks ago in the TW. While even the moderate Muslims decry the violence, they still don't seem to "get it" when it comes to the concept of free speech.
Roberts called on Muslims to be consistent, pointing out that Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and Christians are regularly caricatured negatively in the Middle East press.

"I think what we have here is a true clash between the core values of these two civilizations, the West, and at least a significant stream within Islam."
I would tend to agree.


Clash of cultures
Protecting free speech vs. respecting religion


BILL SHERMAN
World Religion Writer
02/11/2006
Tulsa World (Final Home Edition), Page A10 of Religion

Tulsa Muslims were deeply offended by the publication of caricatures of their prophet Muhammad in European newspapers, but they do not condone the violent protests that have spread across the Muslim world.

Non-Muslims here were more concerned about the growing violence and the threat to freedom of expression.

A Denmark newspaper published a dozen cartoons in September that offended Muslims. One of them depicted the prophet Muhammad, founder of Islam, wearing a bomb in his turban.

The issue remained localized until recently, when other European newspapers began to publish the cartoons, and Muslim leaders took up the cause.

Protests erupted in the Middle East and spread to other Muslim nations. Embassies were burned. Flags were trampled. Several people have been killed.

"I don't know of any American Muslim who is not totally appalled at this insult of the noble personality of the prophet Muhammad," said Mujeeb Cheema, Tulsa resident and executive director and chairman of the North American Islamic Trust (NAIT) in Chicago.

"All of us absolutely do not accept this kind of blasphemy of the most leading figure for Islam, and Muslims," he said.

But at the same time, he said, he and other Muslims, and the entire leadership of American Muslims, do not approve of the violent protests.

Omer Akdeniz, a Tulsa Muslim from Turkey, said the cartoons were offensive to Muslims for two reasons.

First, they violated the Muslim prohibition against any depiction of Muhammad or other figures Islam calls prophets, including Jesus and Moses.

This is a strong prohibition agreed upon by all Islamic sects, he said. Anyone who violates it cannot be a Muslim.

Second, he said, the cartoons depicted Muhammad as a terrorist.

"We believe in freedom of speech, but this looks like they wanted to deliberately provoke the Muslim world," he said.

He said Muslims believed a weak response would encourage other anti-Muslim acts.

But he did not defend the violence.

"The cartoons were wrong, but burning an embassy is more wrong," he said. "In our faith and religion, we have to act responsibly. We should protest, but peacefully."

Ayha Eryigit, a television producer originally from Istanbul now living in New Jersey, was in Tulsa this week filming American reaction to the cartoon controversy for Turkish national television.

Speaking through an interpreter, Eryigit said the Western media has failed to adequately report that an organization of 50-plus Muslim nations issued a statement condemning the violent protests.

Eryigit said Turkish newspapers are calling publication of the cartoons an intentional, global provocation.

The fear is that radical elements are using the issue to drive a wedge between the West and Islam, he said.

"Every religion has these radical groups that are trying to promote a clash of civilizations," he said.

Factions in both Europe and Turkey that don't want Turkey accepted into the European Union also are using the controversy to strengthen their position, he said.

Nuredin Giayash, principal of Peace Academy Muslim school in Tulsa, said Muslims were "very much offended" because Muhammad has a special status in Islam.

"He's the embodiment of the Holy Quran. Muslims' love for him exceeds their love for their parents and children."

That respect extends to other prophets recognized by Islam, including Jesus, Moses and John the Baptist, said Giayash, who protested with a group of Muslims in Norman when "The Last Temptation of Christ" was shown, a film Christians say degraded and misrepresented Jesus.

That respect does not extend to political leaders, he said, which is why cartoons in the Muslim world often negatively portray George Bush and Israeli leaders.

While offended Muslims are talking about attacks on their faith, some Westerners are talking about attacks on freedom of expression.

"This is a big free speech issue," said John Swails, chairman of the department of history, humanities and government at Oral Roberts University.

He said he thinks the protests were orchestrated by Islamic leaders to intimidate Americans and U.S. policy makers.

"And it's having an effect. The question is, will we cave in completely, or will we find the moral courage to stand?"

Swails predicted fatwahs, Islamic religious edicts, would follow to further intimidate Westerners.

Mark Roberts, director of the Holy Spirit Research Center at ORU, said that freedom of speech is a "cornerstone of our Western civilization, and we dare not compromise on this issue."

He said the U.S. should robustly support the Danish right to publish the cartoons. The U.S. State Department has criticized their publication, while defending freedom of the press.

Roberts called on Muslims to be consistent, pointing out that Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and Christians are regularly caricatured negatively in the Middle East press.

"I think what we have here is a true clash between the core values of these two civilizations, the West, and at least a significant stream within Islam."

He said the difference can be found in the origins of Christianity and Islam.

"Jesus and Christianity arose with no taste for forcing conversions by the sword.

"By contrast, Muhammad does begin to compel conversion by force, and it was through that means that Islam spread very quickly."

He said Western civilization, deeply influenced by Judaism and Christianity, has a clear conviction that all faiths must be protected.

"The whole notion of the inviolability of the individual's conscience arises from the Jewish and Christian conviction that we're made in the image of God," he said.

Cheema countered that one must make a distinction between the right of free speech, and speech that is intended to create disruption and discord among people of the world, in this case between Muslims and non-Muslims.

"We routinely accept that freedom of speech does not allow a person to yell 'Fire!' in a movie theater, because it would predictably lead to loss of property or life in a stampede," he said.

He said the cartoons were published knowing that Muslims would be extremely hurt, and that a minority of them would destroy property and hurt others, in violation of Muslim principles.

"People don't have the right to do something that will predictably lead to discord among people.

"This is not honest and innocent exercise of free speech; it is promotion of Islamaphobia," he said.

The Rev. Reza Saffa, a former Muslim who now pastors Harvesters World Outreach Church in Tulsa, said the cartoon controversy indicates that the Islamic world is gaining power and influence.

There is no freedom of religion in nations dominated by Islam, he said.

"What's happening is they're creating an atmosphere of fear.

"This is more than just an incident. It's a great concern," he said.

The Rev. Russell Bennett, president and founder of Tulsa Interfaith Alliance, said the free press argument for publishing the cartoons was weak.

"The other side of freedom is responsibility," he said.

"It's always the extremists who incite the extremists on the other side.

"This is an important time for moderate and liberal folks to work together to defuse this thing before both sides harden."
Van wrote:It's like rimming an unbathed fat chick from Missouri. It's highly distinctive, miserably unforgettable and completely wrong.
User avatar
SunCoastSooner
Reported Bible Thumper
Posts: 6318
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 1:07 am
Location: Destin, Florida

Post by SunCoastSooner »

The cartoons were an excuse for violence by a small, but vocal, minority of Muslims.

I am surprised they chose Tulsa and not OKC for this though considering that OKC's per capita population of muslims is one of the largest and fastest growing in the country. Is Tulsa the same way or something.
BSmack wrote:I can certainly infer from that blurb alone that you are self righteous, bible believing, likely a Baptist or Presbyterian...
Miryam wrote:but other than that, it's cool, man. you're a christer.
LTS TRN 2 wrote:Okay, Sunny, yer cards are on table as a flat-out Christer.
User avatar
RadioFan
Liberal Media Conspirator
Posts: 7487
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:59 am
Location: Tulsa

Post by RadioFan »

SunCoastSooner wrote:The cartoons were an excuse for violence by a small, but vocal, minority of Muslims.

I am surprised they chose Tulsa and not OKC for this though considering that OKC's per capita population of muslims is one of the largest and fastest growing in the country. Is Tulsa the same way or something.
There weren't any protests or anything like it here, that I know of. I think the World just localized the story because there are quite a few experts in the area (ORU and TU being here).

I'm not sure if the Oklahoman did something similar.
Van wrote:It's like rimming an unbathed fat chick from Missouri. It's highly distinctive, miserably unforgettable and completely wrong.
User avatar
SunCoastSooner
Reported Bible Thumper
Posts: 6318
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 1:07 am
Location: Destin, Florida

Post by SunCoastSooner »

RadioFan wrote:
SunCoastSooner wrote:The cartoons were an excuse for violence by a small, but vocal, minority of Muslims.

I am surprised they chose Tulsa and not OKC for this though considering that OKC's per capita population of muslims is one of the largest and fastest growing in the country. Is Tulsa the same way or something.
There weren't any protests or anything like it here, that I know of. I think the World just localized the story because there are quite a few experts in the area (ORU and TU being here).

I'm not sure if the Oklahoman did something similar.
Yeah I didn't think about ORU and Tulsa but OKC does have OCU which is a methodist seminary school I believe as well as SNU.

Just sayin. I was more thinking about the Turkish Television guy doing the story in Tulsa for Turk Television. I would think they would have gone to Detroit, NYC, LA, or somewhere that is more recognizable to foreigners.
BSmack wrote:I can certainly infer from that blurb alone that you are self righteous, bible believing, likely a Baptist or Presbyterian...
Miryam wrote:but other than that, it's cool, man. you're a christer.
LTS TRN 2 wrote:Okay, Sunny, yer cards are on table as a flat-out Christer.
User avatar
Diogenes
The Last American Liberal
Posts: 6985
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:00 pm
Location: Ghost In The Machine

Post by Diogenes »

I still think the original decision to publish the cartoons reminds me of the scene in Die Hard III where Bruce Willis is tooling around the hood with a sign on him saying 'I hate n******s' or something like that.

I totally believe in freedom of speach, but maybe you want to try that and let me know how it works for you.
Message brought to you by Diogenes.
The Last American Liberal.

ImageImage
User avatar
RadioFan
Liberal Media Conspirator
Posts: 7487
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:59 am
Location: Tulsa

Post by RadioFan »

Diogenes wrote:I still think the original decision to publish the cartoons reminds me of the scene in Die Hard III where Bruce Willis is tooling around the hood with a sign on him saying 'I hate n******s' or something like that.
I guess there's many in the Muslim world who feel that way -- that this was done purposely, for no other reason but to piss them off, despite the fact that the cartoons were run in Arab papers in the Middle East. Obviously, no Egyptian or Lebanese flags were burned in response.

The lack of understanding about basic concepts of the West, namely that private companies generally aren't controlled (nor run) by the government is what I find disturbing, to say the least. Re: Calls for European governments to fire editors of papers or jail them. I also think most if not all of the protestors don't seem to get the fact that European governments aren't endorsing the cartoons by failing to take such measures.

We in the West went through all that about 200 or so years ago.
Van wrote:It's like rimming an unbathed fat chick from Missouri. It's highly distinctive, miserably unforgettable and completely wrong.
User avatar
Diogenes
The Last American Liberal
Posts: 6985
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:00 pm
Location: Ghost In The Machine

Post by Diogenes »

RadioFan wrote:
Diogenes wrote:I still think the original decision to publish the cartoons reminds me of the scene in Die Hard III where Bruce Willis is tooling around the hood with a sign on him saying 'I hate n******s' or something like that.
I guess there's many in the Muslim world who feel that way -- that this was done purposely, for no other reason but to piss them off, despite the fact that the cartoons were run in Arab papers in the Middle East. Obviously, no Egyptian or Lebanese flags were burned in response.

The lack of understanding about basic concepts of the West, namely that private companies generally aren't controlled (nor run) by the government is what I find disturbing, to say the least. Re: Calls for European governments to fire editors of papers or jail them. I also think most if not all of the protestors don't seem to get the fact that European governments aren't endorsing the cartoons by failing to take such measures.

We in the West went through all that about 200 or so years ago.
I don't think the intent was mearly to piss of the Muslim wackjobs, I think the Euros are as clueless in their own special way as the semi-literate savages going nuts in the mid-east.
Message brought to you by Diogenes.
The Last American Liberal.

ImageImage
User avatar
RadioFan
Liberal Media Conspirator
Posts: 7487
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:59 am
Location: Tulsa

Post by RadioFan »

Diogenes wrote:I don't think the intent was mearly to piss of the Muslim wackjobs, I think the Euros are as clueless in their own special way as the semi-literate savages going nuts in the mid-east.
:lol:

Maybe. But the initial publication of the cartoons in Denmark last fall was more about a single paper sending a message that it isn't going to cowtow, amid a perception (or so the editors there say) that they were going easy on certain groups ... i.e. being PC.

The shit hit the fan when the cartoons were republished, by other papers. I'm not sure why, exactly. Aside from the reports that some nut from Denmark went to the Mideast and started all this shit, by bringing in drawings sent to him that were never published and not bothering to make a distiction between anonymous hate-Trolls and what was actually published -- unless that's the reason why the other Euro papers republished the actual cartoons -- to show what was published, and that it wasn't images of the Prophet being sexed up by donkeys or whatever it was that was shown to the psychotic-inducing clerics.
Van wrote:It's like rimming an unbathed fat chick from Missouri. It's highly distinctive, miserably unforgettable and completely wrong.
User avatar
SunCoastSooner
Reported Bible Thumper
Posts: 6318
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 1:07 am
Location: Destin, Florida

Post by SunCoastSooner »

Really what I think it comes down to is that Muslims demmand that the world respect them and their faith while at the same time feeling that they should not be held to the same standard.
BSmack wrote:I can certainly infer from that blurb alone that you are self righteous, bible believing, likely a Baptist or Presbyterian...
Miryam wrote:but other than that, it's cool, man. you're a christer.
LTS TRN 2 wrote:Okay, Sunny, yer cards are on table as a flat-out Christer.
Post Reply