T1B

I've been giving this topic an awful lot of thought lately. What do you think?

Some personal background on me is relevant. I began following sports in the 1970's. At the time, ND had, at least arguably, the best combined football/basketball programs in the nation. UCLA's record 88-game winning streak, which probably will never be broken, was sandwiched between two losses to ND. And while BtH constantly hypes OU's near-miss two-fer in 87-88, ND had one of its own a decade earlier, winning the national championship in football in '77 and reaching the Final Four in '78. Yes, basketball will always play second fiddle to football at ND, and that's as it should be. But basketball has still been able to win at ND in that role in the past. And maybe I'm unrealistic, but given my background, I expect ND's basketball program to win, too. Also, I know some of you care about college baseball, and Babs cares about girls' basketball. I care about neither. To me, college athletics means football and basketball, period. If I were in position to make a Faustian (not Gerry) deal whereby ND would go undefeated in football and basketball every year, and winless in every other sport every year, I'd make that deal in a heartbeat.

Now, onto the merits of the argument at hand. On the plus side, . . .

• Without question, at least in the short term, Brey improved ND's program. ND's Sweet 16 season in '03 under Brey was their first in 16 years.
• Brey didn't exactly succeed a murderers' row of coaches at ND. His immediate predecessor, Matt Doherty, had two somewhat promising seasons at ND before bolting for North Carolina, where he flamed out in spectacular fashion. Before Doherty, John MacLeod went 0-for-7 in NCAA tournament bids for ND (in fairness, MacLeod oversaw ND's entry into the Big East, which was accompanied by some growing pains for the program). MacLeod's predecessor, Digger Phelps, was, I believe, the winningest coach in ND basketball history, but he overstayed his welcome at ND by a few seasons.
• With respect to the point above, Brey said all the right things about ND when he was hired here. That and the short-term improvement referenced above gave him an awful lot of good will at ND.

On the negative side . . .

• Without question, the program has regressed in recent years. A little look-see:
  2003: NCAA Sweet 16
  2004: NIT Elite 8
  2005: One and done in the NIT
  2006: Only a relatively strong finish (5-2 in our final 7 in the regular season) in the rugged Big East will get us a NIT bid (I hope, although the rule change Shine mentioned has me sweating out a number of conference tourneys).
  That's not the direction you want your program to be headed (sin, Marcus).
• A piss-poor record in the Big East tournament under Brey. Without looking it up, I believe it's 2-6 in six seasons. Once again, we were one and done in the Big East tournament this year.
• Player development under Brey has left a little to be desired. Chris Thomas and Torin Francis are two of the most heralded recruits brought in under Brey. A case can be made that both regressed while at ND, and at a minimum, both underachieved. In fairness, Francis has had some nagging injuries the last two seasons that have limited his ability to be a factor somewhat.
• In fairness, this year's team has been a hard-luck team, going 2-9 in games decided by four or fewer points. But a few points on that. One, good teams usually make their own luck. Two, coaching generally factors in more heavily in a game that goes down to the wire. Three, the two wins in that group were against OOC opponents ND should have mopped the floor with (Wofford and IPFW).

The conclusion I've reached, if it were up to me, is this: if ND wins at least one game in the NIT, we retain Brey, although he would be on a very short leash next season, and would probably lose his job after next season if we don't improve by at least three games overall and at least two games in conference play. If we miss the NIT or go one and done, I'd get rid of him.

Terry in Crapchester wrote:I've been giving this topic an awful lot of thought lately. What do you think?

Some personal background on me is relevant. I began following sports in the 1970's. At the time, ND had, at least arguably, the best combined football/basketball programs in the nation. UCLA's record 88-game winning streak, which probably will never be broken, was sandwiched between two losses to ND. And while BtH constantly hypes OU's near-miss two-fer in 87-88, ND had one of its own a decade earlier, winning the national championship in football in '77 and reaching the Final Four in '78. Yes, basketball will always play second fiddle to football at ND, and that's as it should be. But basketball has still been able to win at ND in that role in the past. And maybe I'm unrealistic, but given my background, I expect ND's basketball program to win, too. Also, I know some of you care about college baseball, and Babs cares about girls' basketball. I care about neither. To me, college athletics means football and basketball, period. If I were in position to make a Faustian (not Gerry) deal whereby ND would go undefeated in football and basketball every year, and winless in every other sport every year, I'd make that deal in a heartbeat.

Dude not to nit pick or ignore the jest of thread but there was a period of atleast 3 years, may have been longer, where neither the football or the basketball team dipped outside the top 5 much less the top 10. Only school in history to play for both the national title in basketball and football in one academic year. That period in basketball and football we knocked off 21 teams in their respective sports, five of them being ranked #1. Not to take away from Notre Dame did but trying to marginalize what Oklahoma did in both sports in their own right in the lates 80s doesn't make your argument any stronger.

SunCoastSooner wrote:

Terry in Crapchester wrote:I've been giving this topic an awful lot of thought lately. What do you think?

Some personal background on me is relevant. I began following sports in the 1970's. At the time, ND had, at least arguably, the best combined football/basketball programs in the nation. UCLA's record 88-game winning streak, which probably will never be broken, was sandwiched between two losses to ND. And while BtH constantly hypes OU's near-miss two-fer in 87-88, ND had one of its own a decade earlier, winning the national championship in football in '77 and reaching the Final Four in '78. Yes, basketball will always play second fiddle to football at ND, and that's as it should be. But basketball has still been able to win at ND in that role in the past. And maybe I'm unrealistic, but given my background, I expect ND's basketball program to win, too. Also, I know some of you care about college baseball, and Babs cares about girls' basketball. I care about neither. To me, college athletics means football and basketball, period. If I were in position to make a Faustian (not Gerry) deal whereby ND would go undefeated in football and basketball every year, and winless in every other sport every year, I'd make that deal in a heartbeat.

Dude not to nit pick or ignore the jest of thread but there was a period of atleast 3 years, may have been longer, where neither the football or the basketball team dipped outside the top 5 much less the top 10. Only school in history to play for both the national title in basketball and football in one academic year. That period in basketball and football we knocked off 21 teams in their respective sports, five of them being ranked #1. Not to take away from Notre Dame did but trying to marginalize what Oklahoma did in both sports in their own right in the lates 80s doesn't make your argument any stronger.

Not denigrating OU's accomplishments, sorry if you took it that way. Just pointing out that ND pulled off the same near two-fer as OU did, a decade earlier.

Also, for that matter, ND won a football national championship in '73. The same academic year, they ended UCLA's 88-game winning streak in basketball, and were briefly ranked #1 in basketball as a result. AFAIK, Oklahoma is the only other school to achieve #1 rankings in both football and basketball in the same academic year, although I could be wrong about that (UCLA might have pulled it off when I was real young, don't know for sure).

Just brought up ND's basketball history during the 70's because I know I'm a little older than most on this board. There's a tendency to denigrate ND basketball in here, and I suspect most aren't aware of how good ND basketball was during the 70's, not to mention the fact that I believe ND is in the Top 10 all-time in wins in basketball.

Another point on ND under Brey: imho, we have lived and died to far too great an extent with the 3-point field goal.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm as big a fan of the 3-point field goal as the next guy. I consider shooting to be, sadly, a lost art, not to mention the fact that the 3-point field goal gives you the opportunity to come back from a deficit in a hurry. But it seems to me that it's very difficult to win consistently if your lineup consists of 3 3-point shooting specialists, no true point guard, and 2 bangers inside who are not legitimate scoring options.

Perhaps Brey thinks that the only players he can recruit at ND are guys who would be somewhat successful in that system. If so, however, he's selling the program short.

Terry in Crapchester wrote:Another point on ND under Brey: imho, we have lived and died to far too great an extent with the 3-point field goal.

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that may be a trademark of his time at Duke....Quin Snyder's teams were the same at Mizzou--and both spent time on K's bench in the mid/late 90's in the roughly Langdon/Battier era. With Snyder, it always seemed like something was missing.

i was a fan of Brey, but as the occasion of your original post suggests, it's time to produce. they lost some really tough games this year--and the supersized Big East is going to eat the bottom half of the conference alive on the road.

one of my college buddies is a big ND fan and he's decidedly on the fence re: Brey. I do agree that Chris Thomas never seemed to get better at ND.

It's a tough call. Brey has done a good job dragging ND out of the shadow of the John McCloud era, and while he has his weaknesses, I think there have been a few things that have hurt him.

1.) Facilities. The JACC needs to be renovated in a big, big way. It's supposedly in the works, but those facilities do Brey no favors when it comes to recruiting.

2.) Injuries. Torin Francis has been wildly inconsistant during his 4 years at ND, but his lower back injury has really taken a toll on his game. Shots that he would throw down as a freshman have turned into lay-ups as a senior. Granted, he has missed many of those lay-ups, but his jumping ability is almost gone.

3.) Dennis Lattimore. One of Brey's worst mistakes was taking this kid from Arizona. He was a cancer during his redshirt year, and he was a cancer when he played. Chris Thomas fell into his crowd and that did nothing but bad things for the team last year.

Brey continues to recruit well, and I would really like to see him stay on at ND for a few more years. ND is competitive, getting good players, and seems on the cusp of taking the next step forward. Honestly, I don't think there is a better option than Brey at this point.

Oh, and the "D'oh" experiment was only one season.

Killian wrote:It's a tough call. Brey has done a good job dragging ND out of the shadow of the John McCloud era, and while he has his weaknesses, I think there have been a few things that have hurt him.

1.) Facilities. The JACC needs to be renovated in a big, big way. It's supposedly in the works, but those facilities do Brey no favors when it comes to recruiting.

True, but having said that, Cameron Indoor Stadium is even more ancient than the Joyce Center, isn't it? Not sure if it's been renovated, but it certainly doesn't hurt Duke.

2.) Injuries. Torin Francis has been wildly inconsistant during his 4 years at ND, but his lower back injury has really taken a toll on his game. Shots that he would throw down as a freshman have turned into lay-ups as a senior. Granted, he has missed many of those lay-ups, but his jumping ability is almost gone.

Good point, although I alluded to Francis' injury problems. But it seems to me that there's more to it than that. There's some type of a mental problem with his game as well. He should demand the ball on occasion, and he doesn't do that.

3.) Dennis Lattimore. One of Brey's worst mistakes was taking this kid from Arizona. He was a cancer during his redshirt year, and he was a cancer when he played. Chris Thomas fell into his crowd and that did nothing but bad things for the team last year.

True, but last year's team was good enough for the NCAA tournament, we just got snubbed by the Selection Committee (for the second year in a row). This year, Chris Quinn (one of the few Brey players who has overachieved) stepped up and carried the team on his back to the extent he could, but playing the de facto point guard role and also being the team's main scoring option (and a 3-point shooter rather than a slasher) created some difficulties for us this year.

On the subject of transfers, Brey previously had some good luck with Ryan Humphrey and Danny Miller, and most thought Lattimore would do the same for us. Back in the day, of course, ND never would take a transfer, although I'm not sure this was a good policy either. Delray Brooks was Indiana's Mr. Basketball in '84, came down to us or Indiana and he chose Indiana. After one season, he got tired of Knight's act and decided to transfer. He asked Digger about transferring to ND, Digger essentially told him no, you had your chance. He wound up at Providence, and while he wasn't the man there, he was an important part of Providence's 1987 Final Four team. Not a coincidence, imho. So I'm not sure that the old "no transfer" rule was better. Players, whether recruits or transfers, are always a crap shoot at least to some extent. That's where the coach's judgment comes into play.

Brey continues to recruit well, and I would really like to see him stay on at ND for a few more years. ND is competitive, getting good players, and seems on the cusp of taking the next step forward.

I don't disagree. But it seems like we've been at that point for a long time now. That's not entirely on Brey, of course, but he is the guy there now. At some point, we have to stop "seeming" like we're ready to take the next step forward and take it, already.

Honestly, I don't think there is a better option than Brey at this point.

Point taken. Firing a coach just for the sake of firing a coach is never a great option -- it might appease the fan base for a little while, but anytime you want to make a coaching change, you should do so with at least a reasonable possibility of getting better in the coaching department.

As for who's out there, Tom Crean has done an excellent job at another midwestern Catholic school. I don't know that he'd bolt Marquette for ND if he had the chance, but it'd be great fun for the series if he did. Tom Izzo would also be a nice choice, if only to see the meltdown that would inspire from Babs. I don't know for certain that either would come to ND if offered, although I'd venture a guess that either would be more realistic than the Krzyzewski/Cremins/Carlesimo pie-in-the-sky notion that ND had after Digger left in '91.

Oh, and the "D'oh" experiment was only one season.

Good catch. I don't know if I'd consider it an "experiment," however, as at that point, he certainly would have been free to stay if he had wanted to do so.

Believe the Heupel wrote:Constantly hyping? I haven't mentioned it for at least two or three days.

Sorry. :wink:

Terry, I agree with almost all your points. I'm sad to see Quinn go out like this, but I'll be happy to see Francis go. He seems like a nice kid, but he hurts ND as much as he helps them when he's on the floor.

As far as facilities go, I don't think it's the court, or area, but more so the training and practice facilities. When Kevin White hired on (and you know I am no fan of Dr. White), he made the comment that ND's athletic facilities were on par with his alma matter, Central Michigan. Now it's getting better for the football team, with the addition of the Gug, but the basketball team is still playing catch-up. I don't know for certain, but I would wager that Duke has top of the line facilities, outside of Cameron.

If ND could get Crean, then I would pull the trigger. I still hold out hope for Brey. I disagree with some of his coaching philosophies, but I think he has finally settled into his style and he is getting the players to fit that style. This next class should do some very good things for ND.

I think this season is a wash. But given the shape the Big East should be in next year, I think ND should be able to put together a nice team next season and make some noise. If they miss the tournament next year, time to go.

Killian wrote:I think this season is a wash. But given the shape the Big East should be in next year, I think ND should be able to put together a nice team next season and make some noise. If they miss the tournament next year, time to go.

Actually, it's the current condition of the Big East that has me worried most. Individual teams may fluctuate a little from one year to the next, but with that many quality programs in the conference, there'll always be a few monsters around. I've said more than once that I don't expect the Big East to remain in its current format forever, but I do expect it to remain like this for at least five seasons total, so that it can then split along football/non-football lines without any school winding up in a conference without an automatic NCAA bid. If the next four seasons are like this, that'll put a real hurt on this program. From what I saw of the team this year, they'll have to get a whole lot more talented, a whole lot mentally tougher, or both, to make it through the meatgrinder.

Also, the Big East needs to put all 16 teams in its conference tourney. Not for the sake of decreasing pressure, but for the sake of protecting the long-term interests of its members. This year, Providence, DePaul, St. John's and USF didn't qualify for the Big East tourney. USF isn't going anywhere, because football is driving the bus there and the Big East is their only shot at inclusion in the BCS. But if the others, or even two of them, were to bolt for, say, the Atlantic 10, that could be devastating for ND. If the Big East wants to reward the teams that played best in the regular season, they could give a double bye to the top four teams and a single bye to the 5-8 teams.

Basketball at ND is similar to football in at least one respect: the next five seasons could very well dictate what the next quarter century will be like, albeit for different reasons. That's why I'm starting to get into panic mode over the Brey situation.

Terry in Crapchester wrote:Another point on ND under Brey: imho, we have lived and died to far too great an extent with the 3-point field goal.

But it seems to me that it's very difficult to win consistently if your lineup consists of 3 3-point shooting specialists, no true point guard, and 2 bangers inside who are not legitimate scoring options.

Nothing wrong with the first part until you get to the second. MANY teams now have a reliance, possibly over reliance, on the 3 point shot but if that's ALL you have your toast. Put a ton of bombers on a team with a PG and an inside player and you've got something to work with.

As to the overall point of the post, I think it truly is a tough call. I keep wanting to say Brey is a good coach but the results he keeps putting up tell me I can't or shouldn't say that.

My hunch, he'll be around next year.

excuse me? kevin white graduated from cmu? was not aware of that.

i think mike brey is in the same boat as former ND hockey coach dave poulin was. i just don't think the school cares too much outside of football to scrutinize coaches. nd has had a pretty sucessful baseball program and the hockey team has potential. but i don't think any nd brass cared that poulin was a horrible coach who would piss away a top 10 recruting class every year. poulin finally got canned, but only after a seven win season.

i know no one cares about college hockey, or even nd hockey among you nd fans, but i think it's relevant.

Shine wrote:I keep wanting to say Brey is a good coach but the results he keeps putting up tell me I can't or shouldn't say that.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that comment. Everyone who has spent any amount of time watching Brey sees that he has the potential to be a very good, if not great, coach, but somewhere between the potential and the results, something gets lost. Brey is truly an enigma in that regard.

Screw_Michigan,

I agree with your general comment that coaches of other sports at ND are not subjected to the same level of scrutiny as the football coach. Beyond that, however, I have to disagree with your take. A coupla points in that regard:

1. While basketball is not comparable to fooball in the hierarchy of ND sports, neither is it comparable to hockey.
2. With respect to Dave Poulin in particular, it's important to point out that Dave Poulin is a ND alum, and not only that, he's the ND alum who had the most noteworthy career in the NHL of any ND product to play in the NHL. That fact undoubtedly bought him a little extra cache as a result. Basically, it was the equivalent of Adrian Dantley coaching the basketball team, or Joe Montana coaching the football team. In that regard, the comparisons to Brey miss the mark, badly.

Brey was a Duke assistant from 87-95. He missed out on the mad three bombing of the late 90's (my years at Duke).

Cameron had a major renovation in about 87 or so, when we realized that K was probably going to work out OK.