No child left behind?

It's the 19th Anniversary for T1B - Fuckin' A

Moderator: Jesus H Christ

Post Reply
User avatar
Mister Bushice
Drinking all the beer Luther left behind
Posts: 9490
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:39 pm

No child left behind?

Post by Mister Bushice »

I'd like to offer up another possibility. By placing more effort on bringing up the bottom dwelling kids, the curriculum has been watered down and thus NCLB has resulted in a slide towards the middle ground for all kids.

In other words the worst kids are better and the above average kids are average.

I've seen this happen in Cali schools, although not directly related to NCLB, same concept.

One classroom with two distinct groups of kids. English, and non english speaking.

Teacher has to spend extra class time translating all the work into spanish, and thus the overall class suffers and lags behind other classrooms where only one language is spoken and everyone is expected to keep up.

Certainly it's not the only reason, but I would not doubt it is a factor.
SAT scores drop; some see red flag

By Mary Beth Marklein, USA TODAY Wed May 10, 7:00 AM ET

Some colleges are reporting double-digit drops in the average SAT scores of applicants this year, even as other credentials, such as class rank and college-prep coursework, remained similar to or grew stronger than last year's.

Among schools reporting large drops: The nine-campus University of California system, which saw a 15-point drop on average among applicants, Average composite scores for the ACT, a rival college entrance exam, were unchanged from last year.

It's not yet clear what the drops mean, but colleges are particularly curious because the scores are almost completely based on the new SAT, introduced last year by the non-profit College Board, which owns the test.

WHY IT MATTERS: Lower scores puzzle college admissions

"We need to have confidence in the test that we're using," says Stephen Farmer, director of admissions at the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill, which saw a 12-point drop.

No one has suggested that the declines are related to a scoring fiasco this year in which thousands of SAT scores were underreported. That has led to a lawsuit and prompted a New York state senator to consider new testing legislation.

The new wrinkle is reviving debate about the latest version of the SAT. That is "further undermining the credibility of the College Board at a time when they are very much on the defensive," says Bob Schaeffer, spokesman for FairTest, a non-profit testing critic in Cambridge, Mass.

James Montoya, a vice president of the College Board, says it is working with colleges to understand the large drops. Nationally, it estimates a 4- to 5-point decline this year across the critical reading and math sections, but all data are not in. Year-to-year fluctuations are common, he says.

Montoya suggests that a "decrease in repeat test-taking may account for some of the average score decline." Students who retest typically increase combined reading and math scores by about 30 points, he says.

That explanation makes some sense to Schaeffer. He says that trend probably developed because the new test costs more - $41.50 vs. $24.

Brad MacGowan, a college counselor at Newton North High School in Newtonville, Mass., suggests that fatigue could be a factor. A typical student gets three hours and 45 minutes to complete the new three-part test, which includes a writing section. The old, two-part version lasted three hours.

"You cannot expect students to perform at the same level over the extended length of time," he says.
BSmack
2005 and 2010 JFFL Champion
Posts: 29350
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:21 pm
Location: Lookin for tards

Re: No child left behind?

Post by BSmack »

The SAT has also been completely remade. That means all the old cheat sheets, question guides and SAT prep classes just became obsolete.

That's your more likely cause.
"Once upon a time, dinosaurs didn't have families. They lived in the woods and ate their children. It was a golden age."

—Earl Sinclair

"I do have respect for authority even though I throw jelly dicks at them.

- Antonio Brown
User avatar
Ang
Jumpin' Little Juke Joint Gal
Posts: 359
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:31 am
Location: the Moat

Post by Ang »

I don't think it is the result of lowered expectations as a whole, but lowered expectations for those who are not the AP students. What we see here in Oklahoma is a really clear emphasis in the two major cities for schools to cultivate their AP programs and then the rest of the students who are not all AP to be lumped together in more mediocre classes where all the kids are really not expected to perform very well.

If you look at the SAT rankings by state, all the top 15 or so (and Oklahoma ranks 12) have under 10% participation of the high school students taking the SAT. Most of the states under the rank of 20 or so have 50% or over. So, the state rankings go down when more kids participate. I would rather see more kids encouraged to test and go to college than see the schools just cultivate the highest achievers. It would be interesting to see if the states that had lower scores than last year had an increase in participation.

Our kid is going into high school next year, and the high school in our district has a very high average for SAT and ACT scores, but they also have a very strong emphasis on AP classes, and they segregate college bound kids from others in their program from day one...which I don't agree with. How does any kid know at 9th grade if they are college bound or not? Sure, some kids do, but not all.

Our kid is a B student kind of guy, could do better but wants a job in high school and some time for sports, and is not that interested in going the whole AP route. But since he will be going to college, he doesn't want to be thrown into the non-AP mix of low expectations. So, he's going to a different school for high school, a smaller Christian school that does more of the idea that everyone is expected to hold up the academic standards. They also test very high, but they don't do it by segregating AP and non-AP. I think he has a better chance there of learning more because he won't be put in a section of the school that is expected to perform poorly.

You could say that it's easy to do that in a controlled situation where people have to pay, and I agree with that. I feel very lucky that we are in a situation where we can afford to do just that, although it's a major hit on the finances.

But the reality is that both ends of the spectrum take up all the time of the public school teachers...with both the importance of the AP kids who are excelling (and that is a major basis for the high school rankings at this time), and the time spent on kids at the other end who are either struggling with the language or have learning disabilities or discipline problems.

The kids who are just basic good students and not behavior problems get lost in the mix in the larger school systems. And that is a shame and something that the public schools really need to address.
BSmack
2005 and 2010 JFFL Champion
Posts: 29350
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:21 pm
Location: Lookin for tards

Post by BSmack »

mvscal wrote:If your kid has a C average going into high school, you had best get him some good vocational training because he sure as shit isn't going to college. Even if he has a B average going into high school, he's on the bubble.
Not even close. With the plethora of community colleges out there, you can chart a course to a BA or BS degree with nothing more than a GED in hand. I know people who have done it. And plenty of C students have gotten their shit together and gotten college degrees. Do I RECOMMEND that course? Hell no. But it is out there.
"Once upon a time, dinosaurs didn't have families. They lived in the woods and ate their children. It was a golden age."

—Earl Sinclair

"I do have respect for authority even though I throw jelly dicks at them.

- Antonio Brown
User avatar
Mister Bushice
Drinking all the beer Luther left behind
Posts: 9490
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:39 pm

Post by Mister Bushice »

Ang wrote:I don't think it is the result of lowered expectations as a whole, but lowered expectations for those who are not the AP students. What we see here in Oklahoma is a really clear emphasis in the two major cities for schools to cultivate their AP programs and then the rest of the students who are not all AP to be lumped together in more mediocre classes where all the kids are really not expected to perform very well.

If you look at the SAT rankings by state, all the top 15 or so (and Oklahoma ranks 12) have under 10% participation of the high school students taking the SAT. Most of the states under the rank of 20 or so have 50% or over. So, the state rankings go down when more kids participate. I would rather see more kids encouraged to test and go to college than see the schools just cultivate the highest achievers. It would be interesting to see if the states that had lower scores than last year had an increase in participation.

Our kid is going into high school next year, and the high school in our district has a very high average for SAT and ACT scores, but they also have a very strong emphasis on AP classes, and they segregate college bound kids from others in their program from day one...which I don't agree with. How does any kid know at 9th grade if they are college bound or not? Sure, some kids do, but not all.

Our kid is a B student kind of guy, could do better but wants a job in high school and some time for sports, and is not that interested in going the whole AP route. But since he will be going to college, he doesn't want to be thrown into the non-AP mix of low expectations. So, he's going to a different school for high school, a smaller Christian school that does more of the idea that everyone is expected to hold up the academic standards. They also test very high, but they don't do it by segregating AP and non-AP. I think he has a better chance there of learning more because he won't be put in a section of the school that is expected to perform poorly.

You could say that it's easy to do that in a controlled situation where people have to pay, and I agree with that. I feel very lucky that we are in a situation where we can afford to do just that, although it's a major hit on the finances.

But the reality is that both ends of the spectrum take up all the time of the public school teachers...with both the importance of the AP kids who are excelling (and that is a major basis for the high school rankings at this time), and the time spent on kids at the other end who are either struggling with the language or have learning disabilities or discipline problems.

The kids who are just basic good students and not behavior problems get lost in the mix in the larger school systems. And that is a shame and something that the public schools really need to address.

IOW, The good students would be immune to NCLB anyway because they don't have problems, and the bad students are the anvil around the neck of the mid range ones. Nice. NCLB at the expense of the majority
User avatar
Bizzarofelice
I wanna be a bear
Posts: 10216
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Post by Bizzarofelice »

Ang wrote:they segregate college bound kids from others in their program from day one
Thank fucking god for that. Think the smart kids wanna sit around and wait for Ang Jr. and pull the answer outta his nose? No, they got a decent school on their mind and holding themselves back for the benefit of your retard ain't gonna help.
why is my neighborhood on fire
BSmack
2005 and 2010 JFFL Champion
Posts: 29350
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:21 pm
Location: Lookin for tards

Post by BSmack »

mvscal wrote:
BSmack wrote:you can chart a course to a BA or BS degree with nothing more than a GED in hand. I know people who have done it.
Yes, I'm one of them. My grades didn't suck, though, and I had a pretty high SAT score.
And plenty of C students have gotten their shit together and gotten college degrees.
Plenty? No, they don't. At best, they putter around and take a few hours here and there, but they rarely if ever get their act together.

Loser is as loser does.
I know a guy who dropped out of HS, spent 2 years doing nothing but dropping acid and smoking herb who realized one day his life was on the fast track to suck. He somehow got his shit together, got a GED, went to a community college, go his associates degree, transfered toa 4 year school and got a BA.

With all the aid programs out there and second tier schools, it is entirely possible for anyone to get a 4 year degree, no matter how badly they screw up in high school.
"Once upon a time, dinosaurs didn't have families. They lived in the woods and ate their children. It was a golden age."

—Earl Sinclair

"I do have respect for authority even though I throw jelly dicks at them.

- Antonio Brown
User avatar
Degenerate
Eternal Scobode
Posts: 1446
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:05 pm
Location: DC

Post by Degenerate »

mvscal wrote: The biggest failure of our education system is the lack of any meaningful vocational training programs. It makes no sense to put most kids into a college track program when a good portion of them aren't even going to finish high school.
$$$
User avatar
Mister Bushice
Drinking all the beer Luther left behind
Posts: 9490
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:39 pm

Post by Mister Bushice »

mvscal wrote: The biggest failure of our education system is the lack of any meaningful vocational training programs. It makes no sense to put most kids into a college track program when a good portion of them aren't even going to finish high school.
More of a societal problem. There was a pretty decent voke school where I grew up. It had both auto body repair and mechanic programs carpentry, electrical, plumbing, and a bunch of chick programs, but the general consensus about those who went there was that they were too stupid for even public school. Rejects.

Most kids wouldn't go there unless the parents forced them to, so those who weren't college bound but wanted to remain somewhat cool graduated high school and had nothing to offer but the ability to say shit like "for here or to go"? and " Want fries with that"?

Not exactly a blossoming career decision once you're over 25.
User avatar
Ang
Jumpin' Little Juke Joint Gal
Posts: 359
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:31 am
Location: the Moat

Post by Ang »

I guess it depends on where you are in the country, but there are some very good vocational high school programs here, and some pretty good community colleges. I teach at one. I see the kids who, mainly for math reasons, did not attend a major college and are working one step at a time to go further with their education. Some of our students are adults who just want a two year degree for re-training or for a second career interest, but many are young people with families who are trying very hard to get their BS degree and are starting with us. We have a good number of students in our program who work all day and then come in at 5:15 and stay til 10:00 a couple of nights a week in class and work their asses off, and it pays off. In community college programs like ours, we have a great relationship with the employers who hire folks from our program. The calls we get concerning potential jobs for students outnumber the students.

I'm impressed with the students. I did the "prima donna" sort of education route, and never gave a thought to the community colleges. When I was first teaching it was as an adjunct at Oklahoma State for 4 years while I was also working in my profession, and I was teaching upper level classes in a program where the students had to apply to be accepted to it. So the community college thing is new to me, and I've only been there the last two semesters so I'm still learning. But what I have seen so far tells me that it's a really good place for people to start out.

The more choices the better. And they are out there, but they are out there after the kids get out of high school.

One other thing. I think that some of my remarks about "college bound" were probably not as well written as I would have liked to do, so were misinterpreted. My gripe was that the high schools have the main focus on AP kids, and many college bound kids are not AP kids. There was a remark earlier that the smart kids wouldn't want to wait around for my kid to pull an answer out or something...that's not what I'm talking about. My kid already knew he didn't want to do AP this year, so he's not in it now. He went all AP in 6th and 7th grades (plus did the IB program for 7th grade also) and could still do it because all you really need is a solid B average to stay in, but we found it's not all it's cracked up to be. We all agreed to let him check out of the AP thing, because it was all busy work and testing...and the testing is good for the kids to get credit, but really it's mostly for the schools to get a higher ranking.

My gripe was that anything not AP is dumbed down. That's in the larger schools. The smaller ones do better, IMHO. But in the larger ones, it's all or nothing. Total AP or the lowest common denominator in the other classes. And that's where we lose the kids in the middle who are the largest amount of students, many of them college bound, and they sit in class and wait for the fights and detention to be worked out before they can study. And that pisses me off.
BSmack
2005 and 2010 JFFL Champion
Posts: 29350
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:21 pm
Location: Lookin for tards

Post by BSmack »

mvscal wrote:I'm talking about before high school. If you are carrying a 'C' average or below going into 9th grade, you're pretty much fucked. The best thing you can say about a kid like that is he's lazy and unmotivated.

It isn't fair to burden college track students with duds like that.
I don't even remember having a GPA before high school.

IMO, the real problem is the lack of intensity in our educational system. Raise the expectations of all kids, and the college bound won't suffer. Also, ending social promotion would go a long way towards raising standards accross the board.

That being said, my area has outstanding vocational training for both high school and adult levels. If you lack training in a vocation around here, it is your own damn fault.

http://www.monroe.edu/
"Once upon a time, dinosaurs didn't have families. They lived in the woods and ate their children. It was a golden age."

—Earl Sinclair

"I do have respect for authority even though I throw jelly dicks at them.

- Antonio Brown
User avatar
4 king guy
Elwood
Posts: 530
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:37 am
Contact:

Post by 4 king guy »

No child left behind?

I was waiting for the Michael Jackson or the Greek Joke...
Post Reply