Catholic History

Uncle Fester · Post by **Uncle Fester** » Mon May 22, 2006 4:02 pm

-is a topic I know nothing about (I do better at Jeopardy with categories like "1950's Monster Movies.")

However, my wife believes that somewhere down the line, Catholicism and its doctrine were formulated and defined by GAY people. It makes sense with all the celibacy, priests, nuns, repression, homophobic rage, and other shenanigans.

So what of it? If you trace it back far enough, was Catholicism a creation of homersexuals?

I'll take my answers and insults off air.

Y2K · Post by **Y2K** » Mon May 22, 2006 4:10 pm

With all the "kneeling" one definately has to wonder.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Mon May 22, 2006 4:11 pm

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Mon May 22, 2006 4:17 pm

Not too sure about all that. It's had its fair share of corruption, abject cruelty, and other pitfalls of human nature though.

Sexual deviants, homosexuals, loose women, were probably steered to a religious life of celibacy as priests or nuns.

Sexual abnormality, in one form or another, drives most human interaction as it is.

Terry in Crapchester · Mon May 22, 2006 4:20 pm

If you take it back far enough, Catholicism was actually a creation of Christ, albeit an unwitting one. All mainline Protestant denominations are offshoots of the Catholic Church, as are the various Eastern Orthodox Christian denominations.

No question that Catholic doctrine on human sexuality is prudish, at best. Two of the main architects of that doctrine are Paul and Augustine. Paul was unquestionably a misogynist. But it is also clear from his writings that he believed the Second Coming of Christ would occur within his lifetime, and AFAIK he was not gay. Augustine was actually quite the hedonist (probably bisexual, although I don't know that for sure) before he repented and the pendulum, for him, swung to the opposite extreme.

The vow of celibacy did not originate until the 12th century A.D., and at least ostensibly, was aimed at protecting church property. During the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church was arguably the strongest force in Europe, not to mention the wealthiest entity in Europe. As such, it dealt significantly with corruption within its ranks, and some priests would leave Church property to their children.

So if you're asking whether Catholic doctrine is a gay "conspiracy", the short answer is, of course, no. Were some gay people involved in formulating Catholic doctrine? Probably.

Y2K · Post by **Y2K** » Mon May 22, 2006 4:27 pm

Roach wrote:Well the only way they could get the nuns knocked up was to dress them like choir boys.

I always fantasized about laying wood to "The Flying Nun?"
Talk about making the "Mile High Club."

That little winged hat would make a nice set of "handlebars."

mothster · Post by **mothster** » Mon May 22, 2006 4:27 pm

now begins the spanish inquisition.........

The Inquisition (Let's begin)
The Inquisition (Look out sin)
We have a mission to convert the Jews (Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew)
We're gonna teach them wrong from right.
We're gonna help them see the light
and make an offer that they can't refuse. (That those Jews just can't refuse)
Confess, don't be boring.
Say yes, don't be dull.
A fact you're ignoring:
It's better to lose your skull cap than your skull (oy oy gevalt!)
The Inquisition (what a show)
The Inquisition (here we go)
We know you're wishin' that we'd go away.
But the Inquisition's here and it's here to stay!

[Cut to two old Jewish guys hanging by their wrists who start talking to each other]

"I was sitting in a temple. I was minding my own business.
I was listening to a lovely Hebrew mass.
Then these Papist persons plundered and they throw me in a dungeon and they shove a red hot poker up my ass.
Is that considerate? Is that polite?
And not a tube of Preparation H in sight!"

"I'm sittin' flickin' chickens and I'm lookin' through the pickins' and suddenly these goyim pull down walls.
I didn't even know them and they grabbed my by the scrotum and started playing ping pong with my balls!
Ooh, the agony! Ooh, the shame!
To make my privates public for a game?"

[Back to Mel Brooks and his lackeys singing...]

The Inquisition (what a show)
The Inquisition (here we go)
We know you're wishin' that we'd go away.
But the Inquisition's here and it's here to-

[Someone calls over to Torquemada while in the middle of a routine ...]

"Hey Torquemada, walk this way."
"I just got back from the Auto-de-fe."
"Auto-de-fe? What's an Auto-de-fe?"
"It's what you oughtn't to do but you do anyway."

[Torquemada speaks to a row of prisoners]

Will you convert? "No, no, no, no."
Will you confess? "No, no, no, no."
Will you revert? "No, no, no, no."
Will you say yes? "No, no, no, no!"
Now I asked in a nice way, I said, "Pretty please."
I bent their ears, now I'll work on their knees!

[Someone calls over to Torquemada again ...]

"Hey Torquemada, walk this way.
We got a little game that you might wanna play,
so pull that handle, try your luck."
"Who knows, Toq, you might win a buck!"

[Mel Brooks, as Torquemada, spins a huge slot machine, with Jews in place of the cherries, lucky 7's, etc. on the slot wheel. It comes up a winner, and gold starts pouring out of the machine. Torquemada leans over to a flunky and says, "Put it in the car..."]

"How we doin', any converts today?"
"Not a one, nay, nay, nay."
"We flattened their fingers, we branded their buns!
Nothing is working! Send in the nuns!"

[A bunch of nuns appear surrounding a pool of water. They shad their robes to reveal bathing suits, dive into the pool, and perform an old-style aquatic musical number. Some Jews are seen shooting down slides and into the water. The nuns surround the Jews, and pull them under water. Than the rest of the cast joins for the big chorus line at the end of the song..]

The Inquisition, what a show.
The Inquisition, here we go.
We know you're wishin' that we'd go away!
So all you Muslims and you Jews
We got big news for all of yous:
You'd better change your point of views TODAY!
'Cause the Inquisition's here and it's here to stay!

Terry in Crapchester · Mon May 22, 2006 4:31 pm

Roach wrote:
Catholicism was actually a creation of Christ...

I think not. It may have been created in his name, but not by him.

As I said, Christ didn't set out to create the Catholic Church, but that's what he wound up doing.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon May 22, 2006 4:55 pm

It's had its fair share of corruption, abject cruelty, and other pitfalls of human nature though

Wait - I thought the Church was immune to such frailties? Is the Church not the Divine Instrument of God on Earth?

You can't have it both ways. Either the Catholic Church is divinely led by God through his instrument the Pope (and therefore immune to "pitfalls of human nature") or it fucking isn't. And if it isn't, then it's not what it claims it is...and therefore, it's not an organization that you ought to trust much, imo.

SunCoastSooner · Post by **SunCoastSooner** » Mon May 22, 2006 4:58 pm

The Catholic Church was created by Constantine not Christ Terry.

quacker backer · Post by **quacker backer** » Mon May 22, 2006 5:03 pm

Terry in Crapchester wrote:If you take it back far enough, Catholicism was actually a creation of Christ, albeit an unwitting one. All mainline Protestant denominations are offshoots of the Catholic Church, as are the various Eastern Orthodox Christian denominations.

That is typical Catholic egocentrism....I would posit that there were at least two separate strands of Christianity...one more along the lines of Roman Catholicism and one that veered away from all of what eventually turned into the strict liturgy and pagentry of the Organized Church. Groups such as the Anabaptists and the Waldenses were what the Church was trying to wipe out during the many Inqusitions etc that went on during the Middle Ages. Many mainline Protestant denominations have more in common with these lines of Christianity than the Roman Catholic Church. I would suggest that perhaps much of the creation of the the Catholic Church had other origins than Christ.......

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon May 22, 2006 5:08 pm

Those that do good work in the name of the Church are certainly to be commended. I wonder how they feel as the organization they strive under subverts their good work, takes their money, and shovels it into the coffers of the disgustingly corrupt Vatican to be spent on protecting felons, criminals, and deviants of all sorts?

It can't feel good.

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Mon May 22, 2006 5:16 pm

PSUFAN wrote:
It's had its fair share of corruption, abject cruelty, and other pitfalls of human nature though
Wait - I thought the Church was immune to such frailties? Is the Church not the Divine Instrument of God on Earth?

You can't have it both ways. Either the Catholic Church is divinely led by God through his instrument the Pope (and therefore immune to "pitfalls of human nature") or it fucking isn't. And if it isn't, then it's not what it claims it is...and therefore, it's not an organization that you ought to trust much, imo.

Newsflash PSUFAN, I 'm not trying to have it both ways and GOD can have it any way he fucking chooses because HE is God and there isn't much we can do about it.

When it comes to ...

PSUFAN (I'll be on your team for a spell) vs. The Roman Catholic Church

The scoreboard would pretty much read ..... bode the RCC, in all facets of life.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon May 22, 2006 5:21 pm

Uh, wow.

This is really your response?

GOD can have it any way he fucking chooses because HE is God and there isn't much we can do about it.

Got anything better? Let me phrase it again for you:

Is the Catholic Church the Divine Instrument of God on Earth, or not?

If it is, why is it not immune to the pitfalls of human nature?

If it isn't, then why does it purport to be?

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Mon May 22, 2006 5:23 pm

PSUFAN wrote:Uh, wow.

This is really your response?

GOD can have it any way he fucking chooses because HE is God and there isn't much we can do about it.
Got anything better? Let me phrase it again for you:

Is the Catholic Church the Divine Instrument of God on Earth, or not?

If it is, why is it not immune to the pitfalls of human nature?

If it isn't, then why does it purport to be?

Because it doesn't have to answer to you.

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Mon May 22, 2006 5:27 pm

mvscal wrote:
PSUFAN wrote:Is the Catholic Church the Divine Instrument of God on Earth, or not?
I got your 'Divine Instrument' right here. Anoint another altar boy with perfumed oils and bring him to my chambers.

--Pope Ratfinker, Nazi Leather Boy

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon May 22, 2006 5:27 pm

"It is what it is" doesn't work for me, Tom.

Nor should it work for you, as a Christian - or as one who espouses the values of Christ.

Islam or the Aryan Nation doesn't have to answer to me either. I'm not sure that my control over an organization says a thing about where it is morally.

The question for you and other good Catholics is this: why do you belong to such a morally reprehensible organization? That it is morally reprehensible isn't really an issue for people who truly espouse Christian values. Should you not cease your support?

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Mon May 22, 2006 5:36 pm

PSUFAN wrote:"It is what is is" doesn't work for me, Tom.

Nor should it work for you, as a Christian - or as one who espouses the values of Christ.

Islam or the Aryan Nation doesn't have to answer to me either. I'm not sure that my control over an organization says a thing about where it is morally.

The question for you and other good Catholics is this: why do you belong to such a morally reprehensible organization? That it is morally reprehensible isn't really an issue for people who truly espouse Christian values. Should you not cease your support?

I've a confession PSUFAN, I just like to argue. I don't practice. Morally, I'm in kindergarten, just now getting used to not destroying my life with booze (3.5 years) and nicotine (21 hard earned days :x ).

So any moral judgement I have of others, including you, please disregard. They mean nothing, it's not my place.

The answer to your questions is "I don't know". There are things that I"m supposed to do in life, and if I don't God will hold me to account. Likewise, there are/were things the leadership of the RCC is/was supposed to do in life .... I don't know what they were but I trust God will hold them to account either way.

My life in the Church, was filled with observing gross, blatant hypocrisy ..... my own. So I left. That's the only reason I left. My assessment of the church, was incorrect and in my experience I've met nothing but honest, sincere, faithful Catholics that do their best to live a life in harmony with God and others. Charity, Chastity, faith hope and love and all that.

So God Bless, dog.

Terry in Crapchester · Mon May 22, 2006 5:39 pm

SunCoastSooner wrote:The Catholic Church was created by Constantine not Christ Terry.

No doubt, it got a lift when Constantine made it the official religion of the Roman Empire. But it existed long before Constantine.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon May 22, 2006 5:42 pm

So basically, you're saying, "I haven't honestly sized up the Catholic Church, but I know some good Catholics".

Fair enough. I know some good ones too...yet, I always ask myself (and frequently I ask them) why they do what they do in the name of such a disgustingly corrupt and morally reprehensible organization.

Perhaps there should be a "line-item tithe". Good Catholics could then allocate moral and physical resources where they chose, rather than allow those resources to be used to cover for the criminals that taint the Church's organization.

Y2K · Post by **Y2K** » Mon May 22, 2006 5:45 pm

The question for you and other good Catholics is this: why do you belong to such a morally reprehensible organization? That it is morally reprehensible isn't really an issue for people who truly espouse Christian values. Should you not cease your support?

Gimme a fackin break Dave.............

I am no big fan of any church or church group that sees itself as "God's Only Truth" but to paint with such a broad brush is pretty foul. There's some incredible works being done by people in the Catholic Faith and it's funded and supported by this "reprehensible organization." To close ones mind and to have such a myopic and bitter view of others and their spirtuality and conveniently ignore incredible acts of humanity and what drives these kind souls to do these works is a shame.

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Mon May 22, 2006 5:47 pm

PSUFAN wrote:So basically, you're saying, "I haven't honestly sized up the Catholic Church, but I know some good Catholics".

Fair enough. I know some good ones too...yet, I always ask myself (and frequently I ask them) why they do what they do in the name of such a disgustingly corrupt and morally reprehensible organization.

Perhaps there should be a "line-item tithe". Good Catholics could then allocate moral and physical resources where they chose, rather than allow those resources to be used to cover for the criminals that taint the Church's organization.

That's not really what I'm saying. But if it suits your "vision" feel free.

The bottom line is, the Catholic Church is not accountable to me. Nor are you.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Mon May 22, 2006 5:53 pm

The rumor that Catholic Priests, who have sex with altar boys, are gay is completely false.

It is the altar boys that are gay. The Priests are men of God!

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:02 pm

There's some incredible works being done by people in the Catholic Faith and it's funded and supported by this "reprehensible organization."

True enough. Equally true is this: There are some disgustingly craven works being done by people in the Catholic Faith and it's funded and supported by this "reprehensible organization."

That part of it gives me pause. Sure, I guess we all know some good Aryans, some kind-hearted Black Panthers, some Al-Qaedans with Qualms.

I just like to regard organizations I support without squinting. That's just me, though...

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:03 pm

PSUFAN wrote:
There's some incredible works being done by people in the Catholic Faith and it's funded and supported by this "reprehensible organization."
True enough. Equally true is this: There are some disgustingly craven works being done by people in the Catholic Faith and it's funded and supported by this "reprehensible organization."

That part of it gives me pause. Sure, I guess we all know some good Aryans, some kind-hearted Black Panthers, some Al-Qaedans with Qualms.

I just like to regard organizations I support without squinting. That's just me, though...

Can you, PSUFAN, name for me an organization that is above reproach ?

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:10 pm

I can definitely name a few that don't cover the track of their pedophiles, for starters...see Tom, that's a big breach of etiquette for me...

Y2K · Post by **Y2K** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:14 pm

The Priests are men of God!

No they aren't. They're no different than any other vile piece of shit seeking to defame God and harm his people. They'll pay an especially bitter price as has (I don't speak for God so save it, it's just an opinion) or will anyone who uses spiritual teachings and faith as a vicious weapon for personal satisfaction, greed or power against the innocent. Is there such a thing as "degrees of total human shitbag?" Probably. Who knows?

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:16 pm

PSUFAN wrote:I can definitely name a few that don't cover the track of their pedophiles, for starters...see Tom, that's a big breach of etiquette for me...

Go ahead. I'd like the opportunity to learn more about your claim that the Catholic Church is the only religious institution with pedophiles, AND the only religious institution that "covers" for them.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:17 pm

Hat-passer: We have cool churches, nice music, great universities, and stuff.

PSUFAN: Sounds good.

Hat-passer: We have clergy that are forbidden from marrying. Essentially, they "marry" our deity.

PSUFAN: Sounds kinda strange...what else?

Hat-passer: When our clergy sexually assault children in their service, we transfer them to another diocese and cover their tracks.

PSUFAN: Well, I guess I'll pass.

Hat-passer: Are you sure? We pass the hat to pay for sexual assault case settlements, also. You know you want some of that!

PSUFAN: Awfully tempting, but I'll be on my way now.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:20 pm

I'd like the opportunity to learn more about your claim that the Catholic Church is the only religious institution with pedophiles

Really, that's not my claim. I'm sure there are pedophiles in all kinds of organizations. What I'd like to see from them, Tom, is an institutional aversion to that kind of thing. I'm not really getting that from the Catholic Church, Tom. Not really.

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:24 pm

PSUFAN wrote:
I'd like the opportunity to learn more about your claim that the Catholic Church is the only religious institution with pedophiles

Really, that's not my claim. I'm sure there are pedophiles in all kinds of organizations. What I'd like to see from them, Tom, is an institutional aversion to that kind of thing. I'm not really getting that from the Catholic Church, Tom. Not really.

Looks like I misunderstood your statement. I wish you could get what you need from the Catholic Church. Good luck man, sincerely. You've got a lot of issues with the Catholic Church and I suppose T1B and taking it up with your Catholic "friends" and associates, is the best way to start.

PSUFAN wrote:I can definitely name a few that don't cover the track of their pedophiles, for starters...see Tom, that's a big breach of etiquette for me...

Not sure I misunderstood you though.

jiminphilly · Post by **jiminphilly** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:25 pm

PSUFAN wrote:
I'd like the opportunity to learn more about your claim that the Catholic Church is the only religious institution with pedophiles

What I'd like to see from them, Tom, is an institutional aversion to that kind of thing.

Kinda hard for that to happen when the hire-ups are peds themselves.

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:25 pm

jiminphilly wrote:
PSUFAN wrote:
I'd like the opportunity to learn more about your claim that the Catholic Church is the only religious institution with pedophiles

What I'd like to see from them, Tom, is an institutional aversion to that kind of thing.
Kinda hard for that to happen when the hire-ups are peds themselves.

Wow, you must have special powers.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:29 pm

Actually, he exhibits simple deductive reasoning. Billions and billions of $$ in settlement money out front should have told you.

I see why simple deductive reasoning seems like "special powers" to you, though. That's the kind of thing that the Church knows well, and continues to exploit, eh?

jiminphilly · Post by **jiminphilly** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:30 pm

Tom In VA wrote:
jiminphilly wrote:
PSUFAN wrote:
What I'd like to see from them, Tom, is an institutional aversion to that kind of thing.
Kinda hard for that to happen when the hire-ups are peds themselves.
Wow, you must have special powers.

I do.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:31 pm

You've got a lot of issues with the Catholic Church and I suppose T1B and taking it up with your Catholic "friends" and associates, is the best way to start.

Let's just start with this conversation, Tom. You want to talk about this, or do you want to bob for apples?

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:32 pm

PSUFAN wrote:Actually, he exhibits simple deductive reasoning. Billions and billions of $$ in settlement money out front should have told you.

I see why simple deductive reasoning seems like "special powers" to you, though. That's the kind of thing that the Church knows well, and continues to exploit, eh?

I'm sorry I don't see any organizations.

PSUFAN wrote:I can definitely name a few that don't cover the track of their pedophiles, for starters

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:38 pm

I'm confused...do you really claim that the Catholic Church hasn't covered the tracks of their peds?

Or, are you saying that you're OK with it? Because I'm not ok with that, coming from the organization that sells itself as the Divine Instrument of God on Earth, Tom. That's what I was getting at before...Divine Right isn't some minor sidebar with the Catholic Church, in case that comes as news to you. Either they are immune from Human Frailties, or they are a fraud.

Y2K · Post by **Y2K** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:39 pm

Hmmmmm

How about this PSU and this isn't imagined.

Priest meets Mrs Y and Y at a local charity event.

Priest: I haven't seen you in many years Mrs. Y are you still a member of the church.

Mrs Y: I attend a different church now, very open and Non- Denominational.

Priest: What can I do to get you to rejoin our parish?

Mrs Y: I will never come back to any organized religion that could stand idly by like ours did as peoples lives were torn to shreds. Young, innocent and vulnerable people were preyed upon by garbage disquised as teachers of the word and people KNEW what was happening and did nothing, how could this happen? it's absolutely sickening, at least I know that where I worship now nobody has a free pass to be an ungodly animal for years on end because of a pathetic secret club using our God as a ruse to be satan's best friend.

Priest: I'm sorry you see it that way, they were sick and need forgiveness and help.

Mrs Y: What they need is a lethal injection father and they should make the "silent" enablers insert the poison and watch them die like they did those kids.

Priest walked away without saying another word.
Rack Mrs Y. that was absolute $.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:41 pm

Yep. Rack Mrs. Y in the strongest possible terms.