Ok some serious questions

[buckeye_in_sc]

about your online habits and limits...

I had a nice run a couple weeks ago winning a lot of 10+1 6 person Sit N Gos and finishing 2nd a couple times...plus I was doing rather well at the $.10/$.25 NL cash game (6 max) and the $2/$4 limit cash games (6 Max)...

but then the inevitable happened...sick beats all over the map...this is not a post to whine about bad beats but I will give a couple examples:

I am holding JJ on the button in a 6 person Sit N Go down to 4...blinds are 200/400 I believe and I raise to $850 the SB folds and the BB (short stack of about 9 something goes all in and I call)...he shows A/8 (the aces was a heart)...one of my jacks was a heart...what hits the board...FIVE FUCKING HEARTS...so SC gets crippled and goes out a short time later

A 30+1 SNG on Full Tilt...first hand I get dealt pocket Aces...(which I hate on the first hand with blinds at 15/30)...I raise to 75...get one caller...flop comes heart, heart, rag...i bet about 250 guy calls...turn is an ace...i bet another 250 guy calls...river Q of hearts...i bet 500...he calls...he turns over 5/7 of hearts to make his flush to beat my set...chased that damn thing with 5/7 of hearts...SC goes out again a short time later when his queens get sucked out on at the river

so i float back to Poker Stars and this morning was unreal...lost two big pots to chasers at the $.25/$.50 NL 6 max...held top pair with a better kicker on one and the chick hit a 4 outer on the river...then had Aces and dude hits a flush on the river after cold calling a $2 raise with Q/3 of spades...

So SC is asking this astute group (sup Dins, TWIS, AL, Eagle, Mook, etc)...what limits do you play at again?

I feel as though I have enough skill to play higher LIMITS (like $2/$4 Limit) and am wondering should I just move up? I guess I have such an aversion to Donk behavior...I mean people are calling raises with 4/7 off and hitting tow pair...is it the limit I am playing at? I mean I am making the correct MATHEMATICAL moves but just seem to get the suckout...

Thoughts? Tips, etc? Again not whining just want to know if perhaps I should just step up my game? As always your advice is appreciated...

overall I am down in my online career (about 1 year) so I would like to figure out how to maybe eek out a little profit...

[Dinsdale]

Asking the wrong guy here.

The S&G's and smaller stuff is just too damned streaky for my tastes. I'm either cleaning house game after game, or I get rooked like there's no tomorrow...but it's always in streaks. Go way up for a few games, then blink an eye and wonder where my account balance went.

I don't have an answer to not getting beat by donks online. People are so freaking unknowledgable and stupid, that they chase longshots...but, chase enough of them, and you're bound to hit sooner or later...usually later...but that's how probablility works. But of course, when that 1 in a buhzillion hits, it's always at the expense of Dinsdale or sc buckeye...that's some unwritten rule of life.

The reason you fall victim to so many brutal suckouts online, is because there's way more idiots praying for a brutal suckout.


Me...it's more of a hobby than a revenue generator, so I don't really care. Like I've mentioned before, for me, it's about whether that account goes up or down in comparison to where it was...the amount doesn't matter so much, just the relative state of the account.

In my online career, I'm even. Only play cash games at PP, and I won my account there, and never sent them a dime. Well, I suppose that puts me $2-3 up at the moment. Not enough to buy lunch or anything, but probably puts me amongst the elite when it comes to career earnings online, actually...a sad thing to think about.


I pretty much dig the freerolls or $1 open tournies, and if I make a dollar or two(for my 4 hours work, if I go deep...which is just about every tourney I enter anymore), I'm thrilled. But like I said, it's not really about the money for me, it's the competition, and just the principle of finishing any amount ahead...especially in a zero-buy-in tourney.



But then again, if I pop some tourney for a large amount of money, we'll see if I'm still singing that same tune, right?


BTW-hitting a WSOP Qualifier wouldn't suck, would it?

[Adelpiero]

the lower the stakes, especially Limit games, the more fish are looking to steal.

you basically should overbet every big hand you get, if you slowplay, the 27 of hearts or spades will catch on several occasions.


once you got the set of aces, or the board had 2 hearts, you must overbet immediately. if not you will get sucked out. lederers sister bitches about overbetting, but there are too many people willing to piss away $25-40 and try and suck out every hand. overbet i say, but what do i know, i'm staying away from holdem and playing the table game instead of seated table. i like the action better.

trust me, one night i was drawing everything, no matter what i had, so i stayed in on anything suited, and would suck out to a set or 2 pair. So idiots online will do it just for shit and grins.

[Dinsdale]

Great advice, adel.

If a person is going to suck you out, at least make them freaking PAY and PAY freaking dearly for the prviledge of seeing those cards they're hoping to suck you out with.


If you let people limp, don't bitch about suckouts.

Actually, that's stupid...you should still bitch about any and all suckouts, since that's human nature. You'll just be bitching about them less if you overbet nutty hands before all of those runners hit the board.

[buckeye_in_sc]

I don't want it to seem like I have never had a suckout but this run lately it seems no matter what SC does holy shit...

i guess I play a lot by math and that is my downfall in many instances I am looking for the best situation mathematically so that is why I don't donk as much...I am not sure how the donks do it but oh well...

perhaps I should step up a little in limit...i was thinking 1/2 Limit or 2/4 Limit for a start and see what happens...

hey i have a right to bitch about them (thanks for the advice dins) and damn it I will bitch about them...

Adel might be in the 314 hopefully soon...if I am i'll let you know and we might could hit the president (is that the riverboat right across from the Arch?)

[Adelpiero]

-
(is that the riverboat right across from the Arch?)

yes

[Dinsdale]

Found myself at home late last night, and I ended up playing the last freeroll of the night on PP.

8228 people entered. I beat 8225 of them.

Netted about $6 an hour for playing a silly game online. I think I'm going to retire at 40 because of it.

At $6 an hour, if I were to get myself a wicked meth habit and stay up 24 hours a day, I could make around $150 a day...minus the cost of the meth.

It's Fat City for this kid...minus the fat, of course...not eating for two weeks straight makes it hard to get fat...but...but...


I'm going pro -- I placed high on a freeroll.


But on a little more serious note, I sure came across some very very good players for a freeroll. One of the other guys at the final table mentioned the same thing, and everyone else seemed to agree that the level of competition/skill was way above that of an average freeroll. I'm usually pretty loose in the FR's until it gets down to a few tables, but that "pusher" crap wasn't working on these sharks. Actually had to play smart, proper cards to stay afloat.

I'm Billy Badass and all, but I staill maintain my theory(now as much as ever) that to do really well in those freerolls (should be called "free-for-alls"), not only do you need to play very well, but you also need some help from Lady Luck...that's just the way it is. I don't care WHO you are, Phil Ivey or otherwise, you're not collecting THAT many people's chips without at least a little luck...not happening. And the same thing seems to hold true in the low buy-in tournies. Ultra-aggressive play in those donkshows can be pretty rewarding, which is rarely a good idea when playing higher stakes, but when the buy-in is zero, I don't get nearly so worked up about losing my chips...I'll get 'em next time.

[Eaglebauer]

about your online habits and limits...

I had a nice run a couple weeks ago winning a lot of 10+1 6 person Sit N Gos and finishing 2nd a couple times...plus I was doing rather well at the $.10/$.25 NL cash game (6 max) and the $2/$4 limit cash games (6 Max)...

but then the inevitable happened...sick beats all over the map...this is not a post to whine about bad beats but I will give a couple examples:

I am holding JJ on the button in a 6 person Sit N Go down to 4...blinds are 200/400 I believe and I raise to $850 the SB folds and the BB (short stack of about 9 something goes all in and I call)...he shows A/8 (the aces was a heart)...one of my jacks was a heart...what hits the board...FIVE FUCKING HEARTS...so SC gets crippled and goes out a short time later

A 30+1 SNG on Full Tilt...first hand I get dealt pocket Aces...(which I hate on the first hand with blinds at 15/30)...I raise to 75...get one caller...flop comes heart, heart, rag...i bet about 250 guy calls...turn is an ace...i bet another 250 guy calls...river Q of hearts...i bet 500...he calls...he turns over 5/7 of hearts to make his flush to beat my set...chased that damn thing with 5/7 of hearts...SC goes out again a short time later when his queens get sucked out on at the river

so i float back to Poker Stars and this morning was unreal...lost two big pots to chasers at the $.25/$.50 NL 6 max...held top pair with a better kicker on one and the chick hit a 4 outer on the river...then had Aces and dude hits a flush on the river after cold calling a $2 raise with Q/3 of spades...

So SC is asking this astute group (sup Dins, TWIS, AL, Eagle, Mook, etc)...what limits do you play at again?

I feel as though I have enough skill to play higher LIMITS (like $2/$4 Limit) and am wondering should I just move up? I guess I have such an aversion to Donk behavior...I mean people are calling raises with 4/7 off and hitting tow pair...is it the limit I am playing at? I mean I am making the correct MATHEMATICAL moves but just seem to get the suckout...

Thoughts? Tips, etc? Again not whining just want to know if perhaps I should just step up my game? As always your advice is appreciated...

overall I am down in my online career (about 1 year) so I would like to figure out how to maybe eek out a little profit...

If you're down overall after a year, you may need to examine your game more critically.

I understand the suckouts. Overall, though, are you folding enough, or are you paying off hands you know you're beat on? Phil Gordon has a good saying-- 'if I never get bluffed off a hand, that means I'm calling too much.'

On your winning hands, are you getting in enough bets? Or are you checking through on the river because you're afraid of a reraise.

Then again, it seems you're playing more NL (?) I don't know much about that game. Maybe you might want to try limit.

[Mook]

about your online habits and limits...

but then the inevitable happened...sick beats all over the map...this is not a post to whine about bad beats but I will give a couple examples:

I am holding JJ on the button in a 6 person Sit N Go down to 4...blinds are 200/400 I believe and I raise to $850 the SB folds and the BB (short stack of about 9 something goes all in and I call)...he shows A/8 (the aces was a heart)...one of my jacks was a heart...what hits the board...FIVE FUCKING HEARTS...so SC gets crippled and goes out a short time later

A 30+1 SNG on Full Tilt...first hand I get dealt pocket Aces...(which I hate on the first hand with blinds at 15/30)...I raise to 75...get one caller...flop comes heart, heart, rag...i bet about 250 guy calls...turn is an ace...i bet another 250 guy calls...river Q of hearts...i bet 500...he calls...he turns over 5/7 of hearts to make his flush to beat my set...chased that damn thing with 5/7 of hearts...SC goes out again a short time later when his queens get sucked out on at the river

so i float back to Poker Stars and this morning was unreal...lost two big pots to chasers at the $.25/$.50 NL 6 max...held top pair with a better kicker on one and the chick hit a 4 outer on the river...then had Aces and dude hits a flush on the river after cold calling a $2 raise with Q/3 of spades...

So SC is asking this astute group (sup Dins, TWIS, AL, Eagle, Mook, etc)...what limits do you play at again?

I feel as though I have enough skill to play higher LIMITS (like $2/$4 Limit) and am wondering should I just move up? I guess I have such an aversion to Donk behavior...I mean people are calling raises with 4/7 off and hitting tow pair...is it the limit I am playing at? I mean I am making the correct MATHEMATICAL moves but just seem to get the suckout...

Thoughts? Tips, etc? Again not whining just want to know if perhaps I should just step up my game? As always your advice is appreciated...

overall I am down in my online career (about 1 year) so I would like to figure out how to maybe eek out a little profit...

Personally, I think you need to raise more with hands like these, especially in the Sit n' Go's. You should raise at least 3x and probably 4x the big blind. The first hand was just tough luck, the guy would have probably called with any two cards being that shortstacked and in the BB. The second hand you made proper size bets, with the exception of the initial raise, which should have been higher. That said, everything bet after that gave your opponent terrible odds to chase his flush, however it did make it very obvious you had a made hand, probaby a big pair and he new if he hit the flush he would clean you out. Some people will take that risk in S n' G's. Not my style, but not totally incorrect either. The second hand was a bad beat and it sucks, but it comes with the territory.

I typically play 10 seat Sit n' Go's from the $11 to $55 levels on Party. I don't find the level of play changes much in any of these levels except that it tightens up considerably more on the bubble at the $55 level. I don't see real big swings and think you should be cashing at least 40% of the time in these events, if you aren't you need to listen to Eaglebauer and seriously re-evaluate your play. I know it isn't fun to hear this, but if you can't beat the lower level games, you definitely can't beat the higher level games. You want to play with fish. The thing is you have to make good mathematical decisions EVERY single time, that way you can expect to profit in the long run. If you don't make good decisions, you will lose money, if you are losing money after a year you have some leaks in your game that you need to correct.

I'm not trying to be an a-hole, just trying to help. I also have no idea how often you play. One year of playing two hours a month isn't a good sample size and may not be indicative of losing play. However if you are playing 6 hours a night and are losing, you need to change. Be very aware of your starting hand requirements and the position you are in. Don't chase, pay attention to what the other guy might have, err on the side of caution, especially if you think you are the best player at the table, don't put yourself in coin flip situations if you can outplay people later.

Finally, don't forget the times you suckout on people. Just this last week I played with my head firmly up my own ass for three straight nights. I managed to suckout a couple of wins in the Sit n' Go's and managed to break about even in a NL ring game. I played like crap and got lucky, that's why I'm staying away for a few days. As I was playing I was talking to my wife and telling her that I don't mind losing but I hate losing because I played like an idiot, and I made some awful plays. Like I said, I lucked out and knew it. I did not play winnning poker but managed to win. It's important to remember nights like these when somebody hits a two outer on you on the river. But if you start playing bad, take a couple of days off. Bad decisions can dig you holes that take a long time to climb out of. You can spend six hours trying to get up $100 in $1/$2 NL game only to make a mistake and give it all back. This game is not very tolerant of mistakes.

I do enjoy the forum, thanks.

[Dinsdale]

Don't chase, pay attention to what the other guy might have, err on the side of caution, especially if you think you are the best player at the table, don't put yourself in coin flip situations if you can outplay people later.

THAT'S some great advice. Rack Mook.

I find I always do the best when I'm sitting sitting at the computer feeling arrogant about my abilities(kind of mimics this board, come to think ofd it).

But, when you can get in a mindset that those other people don't belong sitting at the same table as you, it makes it a lot easier to kiss hands goodbye that you thought might have potential, knowing that you'll just rook a pot out of them later.

My motto online is always kinda "err in the direction of the "fold" button, and you live to fight another day." Better to fold too much than to call too much...but on the other side of the coin, when it's trime to commit...commit.

[Mook]

By the way SC, big props to you for saying you were down a bit after a year. There is no shame in that. But very few people admit to not being a winning player and I think it's cool that you came clean with that. I lost my ass the first few years I played, although I was part of the group that didn't really admit it!! You'll get better. And I think it was Dins that said it best, you have to play a lot and then play a lot more to get better at this game. There is no substitute for experience.

[Dinsdale]

And I think it was Dins that said it best, you have to play a lot and then play a lot more to get better at this game. There is no substitute for experience.

You should of course take my word on the subject as law, since I think I finished the last a whole $1.10 ahead.


At that rate...I could...something.

[Mook]

You should of course take my word on the subject as law,

I figured that went without saying.....