T1B

U.S. Forces Seek 2 Soldiers Apparently Captured in Iraq

Remember, if they are stripped naked, waterboarded, beaten, sleep-deprived, urinated on,
and hooded, it's not torture.


Sow the wind...

isn't it MIA-DAL in nba finals?

Adelpiero wrote:isn't it MIA-DAL in nba finals?

Trust me. Your mavericks will be feeling the heat in the Sunni Triangle soon enough.

Martyred wrote:

Adelpiero wrote:isn't it MIA-DAL in nba finals?

Trust me. Your mavericks will be feeling the heat in the Sunni Triangle soon enough.

There you are! Red headband, on the left....

Martyred wrote:U.S. Forces Seek 2 Soldiers Apparently Captured in Iraq

Remember, if they are stripped naked, waterboarded, beaten, sleep-deprived, urinated on, and hooded, it's not torture.

"He can't do that to our pledges."
"Only we can do that to our pledges."

:twisted:

Martyred wrote: Remember, if they are stripped naked, waterboarded, beaten, sleep-deprived, urinated on,
and hooded, it's not torture.

We can only hope that is all.

Martyred, you do know that torture is the middle east's m.o.

Martyred wrote:U.S. Forces Seek 2 Soldiers Apparently Captured in Iraq

Remember, if they are stripped naked, waterboarded, beaten, sleep-deprived, urinated on,
and hooded, it's not torture.


Sow the wind...

...and maybe some wind sowing is exactly the price being paid by some Arab prisoners these days, following all the years of horrific treatment the Arab world has always meted out to their prisoners.

What, you think that whatever you think we've done to their prisoners was done in a vacuum, and that they haven't always done much worse to their prisoners??

Care to link us to any videos showing Arabs being beheaded by their U.S. captors? I'll be fine with it if you could even scare up something we've done that's even remotely akin to what the Arabs did to the Israeli Olympic athletes they took as hostages in Munich.

For anybody to even begin to compare anything we do to what the Arab world has always done to their prisoners is just comical. You'd have to have a Nick Frisco sized tinfoil dunce cap to even begin to make such comparisons, not to mention a case of fervent anti U.S. myopia that'd choke an Iranian cleric...

Van wrote:You'd have to have a Nick Frisco sized tinfoil dunce cap to even begin to make such comparisons, not to mention a case of fervent anti U.S. myopia that'd choke an Iranian cleric...

And we have a winner.

Van wrote:
Care to link us to any videos showing Arabs being beheaded by their U.S. captors? I'll be fine with it if you could even scare up something we've done that's even remotely akin to what the Arabs did to the Israeli Olympic athletes they took as hostages in Munich.

Here is an interesting photo from 'The Museum Of American War Atrocities' in Ho Chi Minh City - posing for amusing photographs with the heads of victims or fashioning necklaces from severed body parts wasn't exactly out of the ordinary.

Posing with and then cutting off heads are two different things. We did that or did the gooksdo it? What fucking shit trolls you and Martard are.

Kill yourselves.

Dr_Phibes wrote: ...posing for amusing photographs with the heads of victims or fashioning necklaces from severed body parts wasn't exactly out of the ordinary.

Yes, I'm sure that it happened everyday during that entire war. Maybe twice a day. Those sick butchers weren't getting enough hallinogenic drugs to amuse themselves with, so had to find another outlet.

You've got it all figured out, Pheebs.

OTST wrote:
Kill yourselves.

You do mean 'commit an act of asymmetrical warfare', yes?

fashioning necklaces from severed body parts wasn't exactly out of the ordinary.

I larfed.

Nope, not out of the ordinary at all, that. In fact, it's so fucking ordinary that it's right there in the handbook given out to G.I.'s during the first day at boot camp...

"When encountering severed and presumably dead FUBAR bodies dare to be ordinary. Do as most of your other fictional comrades do and, hey! Make a snazzy necklace pendant out of Gook Penii! Maybe string together some blowed up yellow toofers and re-visit your honeymoon in Maui by fashioning your own Yellow Toofers Puka Shell necklace!

Whatever. Knock yourself. Get creative. It's a long day out there soldier and what the hell, it beats digging graves doesn't it? Come to think of it, sporting your de riguer Battlefield Visigoth Plumage such as you are you'll likely also pull like crazy with all the ladies when you go on leave..."

Yep, our guys at the Pentagon are a regular hoot.

As opposed to the orders that come down from the Al Queda General Staff from Al Queda headquarters, written on official Al Queda stationary, complete with logo.

As opposed to something that the Arab world thinks of as so ordinary and downright acceptable that they choose to film their BEHEADINGS OF KIDNAPPED JOURNALISTS before sending off said videos to Al Jazerra so that it can be broadcast around the world...

Compare and contrast that kind of barbarism to anything we do...how??

There are no comparisons that can be drawn there. Your alarmist nonsense is off the charts. Go away.

Van, Phibes and Martard are shit trolls most likely from Quebec. They are tards and you'd do yourself to ignore these pieces of shit. Some cool peeps are from Canada, but a lot of jealous little pussies from Quebec infest this board.

Ignore and they stop writing. Oh, but the Canatards will take another shot at me and I won't respond. Just watch the return volleys falling short my way that are as limp as their never-had-pussy little bitch-assed selves.

They are not credible and have numerous shit trolls to bitch as they cower behind a facade. Just watch the responses soon to follow.

ZZ, while that may all be true I still usually respond to what's written as opposed to picking and choosing depending on the author.

Trolls or not I've usually found Dr Phibes and Martyred to be both civil and acceptably intelligent in their posts. The main thing I notice though with those two is their blatant anti American stance in each and every instance, even if it means going so far as to compare the U.S. to the very worst the world has to offer.

People can say a lot about the avarice of the U.S. and the vacuousness of so much of its culture, fine, sure.

Guilty as charged. As a cultural society, yep, we suck really badly in many ways. As a society we've managed to deify and in some cases even successfully export McDonald's, "Survivor", Disneyland, "Star Wars", Harley-Davidson, Hip Hop Culture, Nascar Culture, "Queer Eye", rampant crime, Kiss, Paris Hilton, "TomKat" and Jerry Springer.

Absolutely. As a society we've a lot about which to be embarrassed. On the Embarassment Scale we're not even close to most of what the Arab World still manages but hey, we still should be doing a lot better considering all our gifts.

The manner in which we conduct our foreign policy and especially the manner in which we conduct warfare? Nope. Nothing to be ashamed about there. The United States is EASILY and without any doubt whatsoever the most benevolent dynasty in the history of mankind. Compared to every other dynasty in history we have fuckall to apologize for in terms of foreign policy and warfare and our overall record concerning our treatment of prisoners.

Hell, probably the very best thing any nation could ever hope for is to find themselves engaged in a shooting war with the United States. Chances are that as a result you'll end up being a much more prosperous nation and we'll have footed quite a bit of the bill in getting you there.

It just cracks me up when Nick and his Tinfoil Brigade constantly go on and on about how the U.S. is this Cheney Led Land Grab Corporation, bent on taking everything of worth under the sun.

Any other nation in history that enjoyed the overwhelming economic and military superiority over its neighbors and enemies that we enjoy would've simply used their advantage and taken what they wished from those other nations. Most of the time, this would've included the taking of their land as just one of the spoils of victory.

Nowhere in history is there ever going to appear another example like the current situation between the U.S., Canada, Mexico and even the Middle East. Any other similarly all powerful dynasty would've simply annexed Canada (land buffer) and Mexico (land buffer plus huge reserves of crude oil) while also taking the one thing of worth from the barbaric and downright useless (and defenseless) Middle East.

Genghis Khan would've attempted it. Ancient Egypt would've assumed it. Alexander wouldn't have thought twice about it. Ceasar would've thought it Rome's Divine Destiny.

Napoleon?

Hitler?

Pick your favorite Japanese Emperor?

Any Chinese dynasty?

Any modern day African "republic" sharing a border with a weaker neighbor?

No brainer, for all of 'em. Meanwhile, we sit back and treat our enemies with kid gloves and actually apologize to them when during the course of a declared war one of our missiles should accidentally hit Building B instead of Building A. Nevermind the fact that any other nation wouldn't have given two shits about wiping out their entire alphabet of buildings, nope, we go in with as much surgical precision as possible in order to minimize collateral damage and still we're villified for it even by segments of our citizenry.

We are unique in history. The world has never seen anything like this before. What do we receive in return?

We get nations all over the world with their hands out, begging us for everything. Of course they then turn around and burn our flag at the drop of a cleric's hat. We get fat and happy and utterly safe and secure Americans sipping on their mocha lattes and looking for a tv camera and a day off from work in order to shit on us in the media.

We get ingrates from Canada posting on message boards, blithely comparing us to barbaric Arab states who see fit to film themselves beheading kidnapped civilians.

ZZ, I dunno but all in all...maybe Ceasar had a point.

Long post there Van. However, Shit trolls are shit trolls and sucking our prosthetic cocks is something they have their penis envy syndrome all about.

Fuck those tards. Pieces of shit and hate the country that protects them. We shoudn't let them journey on vacations to Atlantic City anymore.

van wrote:Absolutely. As a society we've a lot about which to be embarrassed.

You're right. I had no idea we'd exported "Queer Eye".

Arab armies have always treated their captives humanely. The treatment of prisoners of war
is actually dictated in the Qu 'uran.

It's primarily savages like you that murder and abuse prisoners. You'll see what I mean when
the bars go up around your country, and the entire continental U.S. turns into one big penal colony. You're just begging for it.

Good morning, everyone. I had a dream last night, and that's why I'm here.

Martyred, you can be an asshole sometimes (the 'am i or am i not perk' thing from many moons ago); but on this one, before you lapse into islamic propaganda, you are on target.

Christians have 'turn the other cheek' and do unto others, but how often are those employed against others, let alone other Christians? It's the same with Islam. Does anyone have the exact chapter and verse about how mercy doesn't apply to non-Islamists; or does that only apply to making and keeping deals? No religion is perfect, because no religions followers are going to be perfect.

But as I said before, you raised a great point, succinctly. I was hoping others would read you, and think for themselves. People have. I can't fault them for not then taking the path of wisdom you laid out for them. That is their choice, and their own take on the world.

It is still disappointing that some preferred to be willfully ignorant of your point. The jokes could have been saved for later, as well.

Actually, what's most interesting, Dr Phibes, is not that they are posing as if it 'aint no thang', but the first sentence of the photo: "The above picture shows exactly what the brass want you to do in the Nam." That turns that photo from soldiers merely letting out their frustrations in a unacceptable, uncivilized way -- to soldiers following orders, which is civilized even when those orders are unacceptable. So the question becomes, which is it? do soldiers act out? or are soldiers given orders to act out?

That is the question of Abu Gh'raib. That is the question of Haditha.
One cannot punish soldiers for the actions set down by their superiors. You cannot really punish a soldier for following orders. If the action merits punishment, go to the head of the beast.

Any other actions that are currently being hidden from the American public about our soldiers and agents actions around the world cannot be completely placed upon our soldiers feet. It's time to confront the Beast.

And martyred's point still stands, at least, to my mind as I interpret his (her?) point. The Islamic world cannot be savages or savage, if their actions are 'just the way things are'. If Christians or Jews or atheists or agnostics or Odinists or Buddhists or whoever also engage in 'savagery' in dirty war, then how is the Islamic world to be censured or sniffed at for also engaging in it against itself and against others?


When I see that photo, below, I see my brother. I would not want my brother's body to be treated in that fashion. It is disrespectful. The same with the white soldier in Somalia. He is my brother, I do not want my brother's body treated in that fashion. It is disrespectful. But my feelings don't matter. I'm not a warrior. Strange things happen in the field.

Mvscal, you said something a long long time ago about human beings being animals. You said some very negative things about the human condition. Does it have to be that way?

Van, well, you make Hammurabi look like a jainist when it comes to concepts of justice. I may see where you are coming from, in your own responses to martyred. Therefore, you're not being cruel, you're being a pragmatist. There's no room for touchy feely in war.

Can pragmatism be wrong, sometimes? Or is there no such thing as right or wrong in the field, only winning?

Dr_Phibes wrote:

Van wrote:
Care to link us to any videos showing Arabs being beheaded by their U.S. captors? I'll be fine with it if you could even scare up something we've done that's even remotely akin to what the Arabs did to the Israeli Olympic athletes they took as hostages in Munich.

Here is an interesting photo from 'The Museum Of American War Atrocities' in Ho Chi Minh City - posing for amusing photographs with the heads of victims or fashioning necklaces from severed body parts wasn't exactly out of the ordinary.

RJack, what part of 'an eye for an eye', 'what goes around comes around', and 'what's good for the gander' do you disagree with? Ignore me, sure, but don't use me to slam Martyr. That's weak.

Take Martyr on for his (or her) point, not for who Martyr is.

Martyr is only saying that the United States has sown nettle in it's narrow vision of the treatment of prisoners. The United States cannot wring its hands and pray for mercy only to lash out and spit upon our soldiers capture when they are treated in a less than exemplary fashion by their captors.

Nor can the United States demand that our soldiers be treated in the most civilized and respectful manner possible -- otherwise we'll unleash hell, and use those soldiers treatment for political means against their captors -- we cannot make those demands when the United States has come out publically on the side of 'Torture is Good', 'Torture is Necessary'.

We lost the moral high ground on that one. It's the only thing I agree with John McCain's hypocritical ass about. The US is in a sticky wicket forever more -- our soldiers and our citizens abroad are in a sticky wicket forever more -- because of this administration's asinine decision to say the Geneva Convention applies to everyone but us.

We want our soldiers to come home, preferably on their own two feet and not in body bags. Do we not? We want our soldiers to be treated well, and humanely. Do we not? We want to be able to stand firmly if they are not treated well. We cannot.

If you are saying there are deeper games at play here, than the moral high ground and the treatment of prisoners of war (god help the US and US citizens, soldier and civilian alike, should the US fall from 'superpower' status, yes?)... please explain them.

But don't take the lame route of attacking Martyr through me, instead of through your own take, your own knowledge, your own experience, your own version of the world and how best to manipulate human nature.

R-Jack wrote:Martard,

Now you got IfuckingB proping your wisdom. If you needed proof that your best retort is tucking your tail and leaving this thread, you have it.

Damn, woman, I thought you left. Shouldn’t you be off somewhere celebrating Juneteenth?

I apologize for taking up so many people's time. Loghorrea (sp) is a chronic condition, not an acute one. But I don't like when good points are trashed because of who made them.

Goober McTuber wrote:Damn, woman, I thought you left. Shouldn’t you be off somewhere celebrating Juneteenth?

It's .net I've left permanently; if the moderators here wish to change the content of my posts, they can delete my handles and block my ip address here, by my request, as well. I won't re-register.

and happy Juneteenth to you as well, McTuber. Ribs and potato salad tonight? with a side of red pop, maybe a slice of caramel cake, if you can find it. Enjoy the evening.

Risa wrote:Martyr is only saying that the United States has sown nettle in it's narrow vision of the treatment of prisoners. The United States cannot wring its hands and pray for mercy only to lash out and spit upon our soldiers capture when they are treated in a less than exemplary fashion by their captors.

Nor can the United States demand that our soldiers be treated in the most civilized and respectful manner possible -- otherwise we'll unleash hell, and use those soldiers treatment for political means against their captors -- we cannot make those demands when the United States has come out publically on the side of 'Torture is Good', 'Torture is Necessary'.

Bullshit. Martyr is a cowardly cunt and I don't think even you can get your head up your ass far enough to "see things" the way that troll does.

Bottom line. The U.S. has always been and will always be, leaps and bounds, above the rest of the world in it's treatment of prisoners both war-time and peacetime. Before you argue, read a fucking book or at least do a "google" or wiki-pedia.

Are you attacking Martyr for appearing to attack the wisdom of those who govern the United States? or are you attacking Martyr for being Martyr, Tom? If anyone else had made Martyr's original post, would you have been more receptive to it, and the message of it? Would you have been more willing to consider its points before ultimately discarding them? Or do you see 'Martyr' and immediately think 'Marxist' and blank out?

That's not cool, Tom. Our soldiers lives are on the line, and the only thing protecting them is the reputation of the United States. We're not going to be on top forever... or even for very long. That's a given. Since we're not we should be ensuring a legacy that we will be proud of and can look to even when our glory days are past, and that others can look to for inspiration. Our current government does not inspire ... inspiration. Our government, I don't know what our government is doing, but it is not for the good of the American people. And it is not for the good of our soldiers. We have more enemies than just islamic radicals. We will have other enemies in the future. Who wants to deal with a man (or woman) who is known not to hold to their word? or is known not to treat persons in a fair and humane way? We need every bit of capital and advantage we can muster, for today and for the future. Our government, we, have squandered it through this government's insistence that humane and dignified treatment of prisoners doesn't apply to us. That works both ways. We should not be giving our enemies any reason to do us more harm. Ever. And now our soldiers are captured. Our soldiers have committed an atrocity at Abu Ghraib, and apparently at Haditha. We have lost the moral high ground... and that moral high ground was the only saleable reason left to be in Iraq in the first place.

I don't know how else to explain. The United States is not 'leaps and bounds' above the rest of the world just because it is the United States. That's jingoism talking... like saying one's father is the best father in the world, because he is one's father. It's admirable, but it's not truth. It's just love for one's father. You love your country, Tom. But sometimes love means owning up to the faults of the one you love.

The United States fucked up on the torture issue, Tom. It fucked up at Abu Ghraib.. which we would never have learned about, had not a common soldier taken pictures; what does that tell you, that our government would never have told us anything about what was going on down there, until forced to? It's apparently fucked up at Haditha.

And now our soldiers are captured. We can't call out those who captured them as less than human, inhumane, animals, barbarians. Once you go down the path of 'torture is ok', then you've just joined the rats in the sewer and are now one of the rats in the sewer. That's all.

Martyr's point is correct. Maybe it takes an outsider looking in to make it.

Tom In VA wrote:

Risa wrote:Martyr is only saying that the United States has sown nettle in it's narrow vision of the treatment of prisoners. The United States cannot wring its hands and pray for mercy only to lash out and spit upon our soldiers capture when they are treated in a less than exemplary fashion by their captors.

Nor can the United States demand that our soldiers be treated in the most civilized and respectful manner possible -- otherwise we'll unleash hell, and use those soldiers treatment for political means against their captors -- we cannot make those demands when the United States has come out publically on the side of 'Torture is Good', 'Torture is Necessary'.

Bullshit. Martyr is a cowardly cunt and I don't think even you can get your head up your ass far enough to "see things" the way that troll does.

Bottom line. The U.S. has always been and will always be, leaps and bounds, above the rest of the world in it's treatment of prisoners both war-time and peacetime. Before you argue, read a fucking book or at least do a "google" or wiki-pedia.

So as usual, it would appear you took the lazy route and decided to not do your homework.

No, Martyr isn't a Marxist, he isn't a "Martyr" he isn't any sort of "Freedom Fighter", he's an internet troll and that's all "it" is.

However these men are treated, will be status quo at a minimum, for their captors and have little or nothing to do with "retaliation".

Risa wrote:Bullshit. Martyr is a cowardly cunt and I don't think even you can get your head up your ass far enough to "see things" the way that troll does.

This comming from ChickenhawkInVA is fucking priceless.

BSmack wrote:

Risa wrote:Bullshit. Martyr is a cowardly cunt and I don't think even you can get your head up your ass far enough to "see things" the way that troll does.

This comming from ChickenhawkInVA is fucking priceless.

Did you see me saying "Go to war" ? No you did not. Just because you're a worthless piece of shit that can't respect men who've committed to protecting this country, doesn't mean that because I do ... I want them to fight and die. They've sworn an oath, they've been ordered to go, they bitch about it far less than worms like you and I respect and admire them for it.

That does not make me a chickenhawk. And just because I have faith that a man who will be held accountable, Bush, is ordering them with the best interests of this nation at heart .... does not make me a chickenhawk.

You've raised this several times. You aren't aware of the reasons why my volunteering for service was rejected and denied. You a worthless piece of shit scum that I've managed to step on in the course of this debate and you're almost scraped out of my shoe. I've no inclination to explain myself to you any further.

Cunt.

Tom In VA wrote:Did you see me saying "Go to war"?

So now you're for a withdrawal of our troops?

Welcome aboard!

BSmack wrote:

Tom In VA wrote:Did you see me saying "Go to war"?

So now you're for a withdrawal of our troops?

Welcome aboard!

I've always been of the position of leave them alone, let them do their job, support them unequivocably and get them out.

You and I don't get to decide when that job is done.

BSmack wrote:

Tom In VA wrote:Did you see me saying "Go to war"?

So now you're for a withdrawal of our troops?

Welcome aboard!

Next time just wave a white flag Bri, it's easier that way.

Tom In VA wrote:I've always been of the position of leave them alone, let them do their job, support them unequivocably and get them out.

That's a real chickenshit way to be a chickenhawk.

You and I don't get to decide when that job is done.

The hell we don't Tom. Last I checked, we live in a democratic republic. That means we damn sure decide when this job is done.

BSmack wrote:

Tom In VA wrote:I've always been of the position of leave them alone, let them do their job, support them unequivocably and get them out.

That's a real chickenshit way to be a chickenhawk.

You and I don't get to decide when that job is done.

The hell we don't Tom. Last I checked, we live in a democratic republic. That means we damn sure decide when this job is done.

Our elected officials on both sides of the aisle voted to go, and also voted the other day to stay. Democratic enough for ya?

'BODE Martyred.

mvscal wrote: pussy... cocksucker....

You're frustrated.

B,

You really display how ignorant you are, if you really think electing a Dem into office in 2004 would have changed anything. It wouldn't have.

I know you're frustrated Tom, but there's no reason to call me a cunt and a shit troll.

I thought we had history, bro.