T1B

In order to avoid tarding up the other thread with a seperate conversation ...

mvscal wrote:

Mikey wrote:

mvscal wrote: They don't hate them. They simply want to perpetuate their condition.

Unlike right-wingers who would prefer they be eaten by other poor people.

No, not really. Actually we would prefer that they rise above their condition and make successful lives for themselves and their children, but if they happen to fail...well, that's their problem.

The best of them will succeed. The rest of them have nothing to offer society anyway, so they can eat dirt and die in the gutter for all I care.

C'est la vie.

Re: The bold part ... I laughed, hard.

Mainly because you forgot to type "as long as I don't have to pay a dime for it."

Explain exactly how you would have them "rise above their condition" without some kind of help, be it from the government (student loans, the military, other programs to encourage education), or from a relative. Obviously, requiring employers to pay a living wage is out. Options?

My high school girlfriend got NO help from her family. When she turned 14, she was responsible for buying her own clothes, her own school supplies, etc. She got a job as a waitress. Her mom said if she wanted a job, she would be repsonsible for her own things. So she did it.

When it was time for college, she got loans. She worked through college as a waitress to pay for her apartment, car and bills. She graduated and is now a teacher.

It can happen. She was on her own at an early age. She succeeded. What mvscal is saying is that the "poor" he is talking about would never even put forth the effort to TRY. Those who do and are committed to it, will succeed.

So, are you not going to tell your children they can do anything they put their mind to (save the time travel and walking on Mars comments)?

Or are you in the group that says you can do anything you put your mind to as long as you have no accountability and someone else foots the bill?

Nothing like good solid anecdotal evidence.

All communities need positive role models...and palpable ones.

In inner cities, the role models are often anything but positive. Project kids end up hustling because they see their role models doing it, and being successful at it. Many folks engage in welfare fraud, and consider that to be their due in some way.

No amount of public assistance can assist those whose motivation for bettering themselves has been eliminated. Urban role models become sports figures, rich rappers, etc. The people that succeed in those professions...their numbers are very few..."can't get there from here". So, they are not effective as positive role models, and the folks who are "succeeding" at selling drugs or other illegal activity become the role models.

I think that public monies should be concentrated on community-building endeavors, rather than basic services like food stamps and housing vouchers. Here in Pittsburgh, hundreds of millions have been allocated and spent on stadiums and a convention center (a convention center that the city cannot really service due to a lack of hotel space). At the same time, funds for things like community centers, police salaries, firefighters, crossing guards, and the like have dried up and been eliminated. I think this is a huge mistake. If neighborhood kids can't go to the pool, play hoops, go to the library, go to a grocery store that offers fresh food, then they will turn to the Dark Side. Moreover, the few that manage to emerge from the wreckage are in constant danger of being victimized by the bangers and the scum that surround them.

Either way, public monies are going to be spent on dealing with these people. It would be good if those monies could be directed towards services that might actually begin to change things, rather than exacerbate them.

88 wrote:

BSmack wrote:Nothing like good solid anecdotal evidence.

It beats insipid bleating every time.

Considering that they are essentially the same damn thing, how can you tell the difference?

IndyFrisco wrote:My high school girlfriend got NO help from her family. When she turned 14, she was responsible for buying her own clothes, her own school supplies, etc. She got a job as a waitress. Her mom said if she wanted a job, she would be repsonsible for her own things. So she did it.

When it was time for college, she got loans. She worked through college as a waitress to pay for her apartment, car and bills. She graduated and is now a teacher.

It can happen. She was on her own at an early age. She succeeded. What mvscal is saying is that the "poor" he is talking about would never even put forth the effort to TRY. Those who do and are committed to it, will succeed.

So, are you not going to tell your children they can do anything they put their mind to (save the time travel and walking on Mars comments)?

Or are you in the group that says you can do anything you put your mind to as long as you have no accountability and someone else foots the bill?

So what you're saying is that she needed the help of the government? Noted.

Terry in Crapchester wrote:So what you're saying is that she needed the help of the government? Noted.

Loans, not grants. She is paying them back.

IndyFrisco wrote:

Terry in Crapchester wrote:So what you're saying is that she needed the help of the government? Noted.

Loans, not grants. She is paying them back.

I got that part. But who guarantees those loans?

Yes, she's responsible for paying them back, but she probably wouldn't have been able to get them in the first place without the government.

You start by taking responsibility for children. You teach them the value of education. You work with them at home. You instill a work ethic in them. If you can do these simple things, you will have prepared you child to succeed in this country. There is no government program that can or ever will do this for you.

I'm in limited agreement. The thing is, at this point you're addressing parents that don't exist, except in rare cases. You don't start by expecting parenting where there is no family structure. That structure is something that can be encouraged by government programs, through community centers, through education, and through homeowner seminars and the like. There are folks who potentially could become the seeds of a good parenting community...and those people deserve help in their efforts. By help, I don't mean food stamps or other entitlements...I mean things that will help them assert themselves in a community sense - job fairs, vocational educational resources, etc.

mvscal wrote:

PSUFAN wrote:The thing is, at this point you're addressing parents that don't exist, except in rare cases.

The thing is...I don't care.

You will when their shithole existence spills over into your happy world with a bat to the back of your head over the three dollars in your pocket.

Saying "I don't care" doesn't make their failed existence go away nor the problems they can cause you.

They only thing we should be doing with those losers is mitigating the damage they do to productive members of society.

Try to follow along. That's exactly what we're talking about. Whiffleheads like you fail to understand that in cutting government programs indescriminately, you fail to offer assistance in productive ways.

It's far more expensive to contain and police a dangerous underclass than it is to sensibly assist in community-building. Opaque thinkers like you refuse to distinguish positive community building endeavors from that which has been universally criticized...i.e. entitlements

mvscal wrote:They're welcome to try, though.

Tough guy! Internet badass! He's got his attitude and he's willing to risk what he's got with someone who doesn't have much!

Good luck with that. Hope you mommy and daddy have you a plot picked out.

It isn't our responsiblity to offer assistance.

Then frankly, you haven't really though things through very thoroughly. It's inevitable that some of your income is diverted to deal with the problem of the underclass. Because you pretend that it's not your problem, you essentially choose for your funds to be spent unwisely.

Face it...you've been fed a line of shit. We'll never be able to cut government services to the extent that you're imagining. Instead, those services must be improved and made more effective, in order for things to improve in an overall sense.

Time for you to add a little nuance to your way of thinking...if that's even possible, nitwit.

Terry in Crapchester wrote:

IndyFrisco wrote:

Terry in Crapchester wrote:So what you're saying is that she needed the help of the government? Noted.

Loans, not grants. She is paying them back.

I got that part. But who guarantees those loans?

Yes, she's responsible for paying them back, but she probably wouldn't have been able to get them in the first place without the government.

I never said we needed to live in a lawless, governmentless land. With the loans comes accountability. A loan is not a handout. I said the poor should not get handouts and have no accountability to pay them back.

Pell grants and financial aid, while good hearted natured, ARE NOT the answer.

Did you ever hear anything about this?

http://www.edibleschoolyard.org/homepage.html

Very interesting, to say the least.

The Pittsburgh Public school where both of my kids attend is actually implementing a garden like this. The school draws from both middle class neighborhoods and lower class ones. Many of the kids that attend school with mine have only their public school experience to build on as "parenting".

With the help of some goverment funds, the Edible Schoolyard project has been very successful in some places.

There are many other examples, not that you're really interested in considering them.

We should not be wasting money buying seeds for these scum dwelling losers. Let them eat that one acre of dirt.

Sincerely,

mvsbleedingheart

Up by the bootstraps ..... ?

To hell with the bootstaps.

Whenever I would drive near the geetho and see the 'unfortunate sons' wandering around they all had their shorts saggin' a good 6-8 inches below the top of their ass crack.

There's a strong correlation between getting UP in the world and getting shorts UP above the anus hole.

mvscal wrote:

PSUFAN wrote:With the help of some goverment funds, the Edible Schoolyard project has been very successful

Doing what...exactly?

Involving kids who had never even seen fresh vegetables with a meaningful and educational and tangible community project.

Values, like vegetables, don't suddenly spring out of the ground. They are instilled by parents, or if not, by educators. That much is fact.

These children worked over the course of several year to transform blighted urban space into a working garden. They prepared the space, they worked to maintain it, and they ended up eating, then selling the produce. They did all this in a way that they found to be very compelling. In the meantime, they understood what it took to work hard and then derive the benefits. They were provided a tangible model of success, and they succeeded. They are undoubtably able to translate this success into their other schoolwork, and their values will continue to grow as they become productive members of a community.

If you can't see the numerous and overwhelming positives of such a program, you're just stupid, I guess.

Like it or not, jackass...these types of programs are the only way for things to improve...and as they improve, our entire community improves. Or perhaps, it's you who doesn't give a fuck about building a better community. That leads me to believe that you're essentially as bad as the malcontents that you so lovingly describe...not that I'm genuinely surprised.

Time out for a second.

What government resources did you avail yourself of as you came up? What role did they play in your development, in your ascendancy to the coveted role of Internet Universal Accountability Guru?

Let's hear about that.

Sorry...I asked a specific question. Perhaps you didn't understand? Of what government resources did you avail yourself? Are you able to answer specifically?

PSUFAN wrote:Involving kids who had never even seen fresh vegetables with a meaningful and educational and tangible community project.

Values, like vegetables, don't suddenly spring out of the ground. They are instilled by parents, or if not, by educators. That much is fact.

These children worked over the course of several year to transform blighted urban space into a working garden. They prepared the space, they worked to maintain it, and they ended up eating, then selling the produce.

So get the poor folk in the field and do some farming? Back to the drawing board, eh?

kid, teach thyself, or suffer the whip.

IndyFrisco wrote:

Terry in Crapchester wrote:

IndyFrisco wrote: Loans, not grants. She is paying them back.

I got that part. But who guarantees those loans?

Yes, she's responsible for paying them back, but she probably wouldn't have been able to get them in the first place without the government.

I never said we needed to live in a lawless, governmentless land.

Fair enough, and in that case, my beef is not with you. It is with those who advocate the elimination of all governmental assistance. Those people either have no idea of what they're talking about, or haven't thought through the situation anywhere near as thoroughly as they should.

A college education is an expensive proposition, and unless you are either the child of wealthy parents who are willing to foot the bill (most of us are not) or have some special talent for which a college is willing to pay (and in this regard, sadly, it appears to pay better to be a star athlete than it does to be a star student), chances are that you will need some help to pay for it.

Pell grants and financial aid, while good hearted natured, ARE NOT the answer.

Seen what college costs lately? A Pell Grant won't even come close to paying for it. And most colleges include student loans within their financial aid package.

Terry in Crapchester wrote:Seen what college costs lately? A Pell Grant won't even come close to paying for it. And most colleges include student loans within their financial aid package.

Exactly. So why waste the money there?

Those people either have no idea of what they're talking about, or haven't thought through the situation anywhere near as thoroughly as they should.

Exactly...or perhaps knee-jerk invective has replaced the reasoning process. Just...maybe.

mvsirony wrote:I don't know what the ACF is up to these days, but it was over $30,000 back in my day.

Sounds like mvscal got a government hand-out to go to school.

mvscal wrote:

Bizzarofelice wrote:

mvsirony wrote:I don't know what the ACF is up to these days, but it was over $30,000 back in my day.

Sounds like mvscal got a government hand-out to go to school.

It isn't a handout, dumbfuck. I worked for it. I paid it into the program. I put my ass on the line for it.

Government handout job mvscal. Do the hypocrites come any bigger?

PSU,

One of the reasons Rappers, Hustlers and Sports Figures are idols to inner city kids is that people who truely care and want to be part of the solution are ridiculed and ignored by community leaders because they advocate change. The only way left is to pass out swift kicks to the ass by cutting funding to dependent losers. Everyone knows the current welfare situation is a failure but no one has or hasn't the balls to do anything about it. It's become pure dependence from tenured Guvment case worker to dependent loser working the system. Lose Lose.........

Now let me get this straight.......

Eliminate Government programs that charge and collect fees from loans so people can become educated enough to find work that they can make money, pay taxes and fuck around on the Internet all day?

Jesus,
it's no wonder we need welfare...........

Bizzarofelice wrote:

mvscal wrote:

Bizzarofelice wrote: Sounds like mvscal got a government hand-out to go to school.

It isn't a handout, dumbfuck. I worked for it. I paid it into the program. I put my ass on the line for it.

Government handout job mvscal. Do the hypocrites come any bigger?

are veterans benefits a handout? or are they just benefits of the job?

dumbshit.

mvscal wrote:You want help? Start by helping yourself.

And you can start by dismantling the public school system. What a load of crap that debacle is.

I think most of us availed ourselves of some kind of government hand out, grant, loan, unemployment, etc. to get from our teens to our 20's. Perhaps that's what it takes to get out of one generation and into one's own life. I don't think anyone's got a problem with that as long as there's something to show for the funds/services provided.

Don't we all agree that the main problem is citizens forever going back to the same 'bank' for more and more, and never repaying that by at least getting off the freakin' train and showing even a slight improvement to someone's life.

I never realised how difficult it would be to saty out of debt, but that's the OL and I's plan and always has been. We only owe the mortgage, not Visa debt., no loans, new car when we can afford it, cut back on the vacations. We may retire at the end of a boring life, but we won't be $100,000's in debt when we do. Isn't that the price of looking after yourself? It's been 1/4 century since my last 'handout', but my life is better because of it.

What a load of crap that debacle is.

what the fuck do you know about it?

PSUFAN wrote:

What a load of crap that debacle is.

what the fuck do you know about it?

I know it is a load of Socialistic crap.

Are you saying this school couldn't have just decided to grow a fukking garden on it's own? Last time I checked, the onjly help I got from the gubmint in growing my garden was tax on the seed, tax on the fertilizer, tax on my garden tools and tax on the land itself. thanks for nothing.

Not saying that all gubmint spending is a waste. I am all for loaning folks money to go to school. But, there are countless programs out there which for the most part are a complete waste of money. Wonder just how much money that school got for iut's lil' garden, anyhoo.

mvscal wrote: It was compensation stipulated in my contract

Yup. Couldn't make it without sucking on Uncle Sam's teat. Dumb bastard couldn't hack it on his own so he went whining to the government for money.

mvscal wrote:

Bizzarofelice wrote:

mvsirony wrote:I don't know what the ACF is up to these days, but it was over $30,000 back in my day.

Sounds like mvscal got a government hand-out to go to school.

It isn't a handout, dumbfuck. I worked for it. I paid it into the program. I put my ass on the line for it.

I agree with you up to this point. But what you don't get, perhaps because it gets in the way of your ideology, is that it is governmental assistance. I'm not saying you didn't earn it, but the taxpayers footed the bill for it. And that was pretty much the point I made in response to Frisco's initial post -- his HS girlfriend needed the help of the government to get where she is.

The bottom line is that you can't get the federal government out of the business of funding college education, at least not without fucking over a huge segment of the population (and not just the poor, either). Sorry if you don't like it, but that's the way it is.

mvscal wrote:

Terry in Crapchester wrote: but the taxpayers footed the bill for it.

So fucking what?

Game and match. Thanks for the sparring.

Are you saying this school couldn't have just decided to grow a fukking garden on it's own?

What you're not understanding is that the actual assistance given was utterly minimal. It hardly matters particularly that it was a gardening project that they undertook...the point is that these kids were/are afforded an opportunity to go through the learning process in a way that really drew them in.

On the one hand, we have folks demanding change and better results from our educational system. Then, when something innovative...and successful is undertaken, some of the same folks have nothing but derision.

To KCTRL-Paul a Hannityism...it's as if they want this to fail.

mvscal wrote:

RadioFan wrote:Explain exactly how you would have them "rise above their condition" without some kind of help,

You start by taking responsibility for children. You teach them the value of education. You work with them at home. You instill a work ethic in them. If you can do these simple things, you will have prepared you child to succeed in this country. There is no government program that can or ever will do this for you.

People who do nothing for themselves but wait around for the government to come riding to their rescue like those Katrina assholes a year later simply aren't worth saving. They are nothing more than human shit.

Sink or swim. It's your responsibility not the government's. I really don't expect hand wringing pussies like you to ever understand and don't really care. Idiots like you are the problem not the solution.

Actually, I agree with everything you typed, save your idiotic assumption in bold, since I'm the one who asked and you're the one who made an incorrect assumption.

I never said it was the "government's responsibilty" to instill anything in anybody. I asked what options are available for bettering yourself and how it could be done without at least a little help from the government or a relative.

Most of us on this board have had to work our fucking asses of for what we have today and everybody here, including you, has had some kind of help at some point.

PSU is right, some of you simply want others to fail, especially if they're not following your particular formula for getting ahead.

Btw, I've never taken one cent from taxpayers via loans or any other form of assistance, unlike you. So you can take your assumption and stick it up your ass.