T1B

This whole fucking thing is blowing up big time....

Guess what... both the cops had tasers.. but went to the Glock...this ain't going to turn out good at all...for anybody

[web]http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/k ... 39636.html[/web]

I don't think things have changed that fast since I retired (3+ years), so I'll give it a shot (no pun intended).

When less lethal is deployed (bean bag rounds), we always trained that lethal force has to be right next to the shotgun with the bean bag rounds. Basically, if the bean bag rounds fail to work, then there is the regular self defensive weapon, the duty firearm. Yes, the officer with the less lethal does carry a regular duty firearm, but they want an officer with the weapon at the "ready" position, in case the subject needs to be shot.

I believe that their plan was probably to use the bean bag rounds, hoping they would put him down. The last thing they wanted was for the guy to do either of these things: attack the officers with the knife, use the knife on himself, and or try to get into the house where there were innocent bystanders there.

Sure, it is clear cut if he'd charged the officers while brandishing the knife. If he'd cut himself that would be bad too, bad no innocent people were hurt. The officers just can't take a chance that he'd get inside the house. He could hurt them, or he could take them as hostage, and that just isn't acceptable.

Yeah, he probably wouldn't hurt his mom or his buddy inside, but how many times has loved ones snapped and killed a loved one? Too many times.

I wasn't there, but from the news reports I'm leaning toward the above stated scenario. I'm not sure if they actually planned it (talked it out before hand) or not. Many times in training we verbally discuss the options for many scenarios. I remember the distance one suspect with a knife could cover before an officer could get a round off...and it is amazing. Something like 15 or 20 feet if I remember right. As soon as that teenager went for that door that lead to where the innocents were, he was shot.

Sorry it had to happen...but I think they did the right thing.

Rip City

The cops should have just shot the knife out of the guy's hand.

Sincerely,
Cuddles & Diogoofball

Oh, the taser issue.

I'm not sure what the protocol is when you have more than one less lethal modes of force available. I doubt one would use one, and the other uses the other. You still need to have one officer that has "lethal" force at the ready. My guess is that they opted to use the bean bag rounds first. It wasn't a given that he'd go for the door, or go for the officers.

Both the bean bag and the taser have both worked in the past...many times. But, they both have failed too.

Maybe if they would have had Officer Harry Callahanmvscal and Officer Derron Audie Murphy on the scene then all would have panned out. Harry would have tazed him and had him flopping around like some huge salmon while Derron Audie shot him in the gnarlies with the bean bags. Fucker wouldn't have moved for a week, mama would have got all her widows replaced and all would be happy and joyous.

Rip City

I think we can all take from this the very valuable lesson that getting drunk, waving a knife and threatening to kill people is a bad idea. The kid's own mother thought him enough of a threat to call the cops. I'm sure as hell not going to blame them too hastily.

kill the jews

and the blacks

rack mvscal and luther and kill the mexicans too

i dont even know that the thread is about but im pretty sure somebodya died that deseverd it. and i was walking down the streed in the bahahamamas this past weekend and alot o0-f all of them should be wiped away. drones with nujkes and peters with pistols, theres got to be a way toa get rid of the bad guys.. emelio esteva vs lou diamiond lambada woulda done this propers. and if the jews and the other religious freaks show up here then bacefealice is working overtime. i was on a cruise to the the bahamas las weekend and i was thinkink about this thread and how better to elevate and capitulate my fine frineds on the www.

mvscal wrote:No loss. The kid was obviously some sort of spastic freak no doubt further traumatized by the retarded spelling of his name.

Cops should be mowing down cretins like this. Poor Little Bubby wanted attention...now he's got it.

So their hit average goes up and RackFu's goes down.

I hope Fu is packing a 900 round magazine- he;s probably gonna need it someday

I am going to think there was more than alcohol on board.

I understand the time distance thing, and no time line has been published, but it all went fairly quick I am sure.

Dude was no angel, thats for sure, and the fucking media makes him sound like an altar boy. Too bad there was not a dog avaliable, but that time of day it's kinda busy in that area.

Being so out of your gourd that you don't get it when somebody has a gun aimed at you contributes to the issue.

I can't speak for the local cops as I have no idea what their departments deadly force policy is... especially when you factor in the taser aspect.

The FBI policy is more or less: We may use deadly force only when the we have a reasonable belief that the subject of such force poses an imminent danger of death or serious physical injury to the officer or to another person.

An out of control person wielding a knife in a threatening manner would sure qualify as an immenent danger threat. If that were me in that situation, I think that the two deciding factors in whether or not I'd pull the trigger would be:

1. The distance between me (and my partner) and the subject.
2. The distance between the subject and innocent bystanders.

The "21 foot rule" is what is commonly taught to all law enforcement. That rule is somewhat misleading because it assumes that your gun is holstered and the guy charges you with a knife. In the above situation, my gun would have already been drawn and aimed at the subject. I could shoot at much less than 21 feet and stop him before he got me. Nevertheless, you'd want to create as much comfortable space as possible.

If I was able to put a fair amount of space between me and him (30 feet or more), I'd try like hell to talk him down. The second he moved towards me or someone else in an aggressive manner, I'd shoot. You're left with no choice. I'm sure the kid was messed up and intoxicated but it doesn't matter. The safety of the officers and innocent civilians is the top priority. The safety of the subject is secondary.

I can't speak much on the use of a taser because we don't (and probably never will) carry them. Our deadly force policy is a lot less restrictive than most police departments who use escalation of force type policies. Basically, if I feel seriously threatened, I can shoot someone. It doesn't matter what they're threatening me with. If it's not a deadly weapon per se (gun, knife) but it can incapacitate me (bat, chair, pepper spray, etc), allowing the subject to gain possession of my weapon - we can shoot.

A knife is a deadly weapon and should be matched by something more deadly. A taser isn't a deadly weapon. Just as the "don't bring a knife to a gun fight" cliche goes, I'd say "don't bring a taser to a knife fight."

Luther wrote:Oh, the taser issue.

I'm not sure what the protocol is when you have more than one less lethal modes of force available. I doubt one would use one, and the other uses the other. You still need to have one officer that has "lethal" force at the ready. My guess is that they opted to use the bean bag rounds first. It wasn't a given that he'd go for the door, or go for the officers.

Both the bean bag and the taser have both worked in the past...many times. But, they both have failed too.

Maybe if they would have had Officer Harry Callahanmvscal and Officer Derron Audie Murphy on the scene then all would have panned out. Harry would have tazed him and had him flopping around like some huge salmon while Derron Audie shot him in the gnarlies with the bean bags. Fucker wouldn't have moved for a week, mama would have got all her widows replaced and all would be happy and joyous.

Rip City

The vast majority of Oregon (actually I couldnt find an example on the use of force pyramid that didnt have it otherwise) considers tasers a use of lethal force, so it doesnt matter under law if the kid was swinging a large C-clamp and the bean bags didnt stop him, the next step under law is lethal force. If Oregon doesnt like it then they need to change their laws to consider tasers as non lethal force.

So, change the law to give the officers training to consider a taser gun not as lethal force, but currently in Oregon using a taser is the same as killing him.

And you dumbfucks on this board should have used lethal force on that internet pussy mvscal a looooooooong time ago.

Back to my Nations tour I've been taking for god knows how long. BTW Denver is nice this time of year.

Seems pretty clear cut here as to what the procedure should have been and was. They did everything by the book and thats the way it went down. This is all exactly what another 2 officers have told me, one in the same department, and my son also
( MP, Marine Corps).

So now the godamn news media will spin this so bad , so the citzentry will want these guys balls on a platter. If they were in Portland, they would have to deal with the " Citizens Review Committee", (sup Luth ???)

Memo to morons: Do not wave knives around, trash property and ignore the guy with the badge and gun pointed at you.

Maybe a rack to Darwin ??

That's a little more like it, chuck.

I'd like to think that my call out of Darwin a few days ago had something to do with this.

A 59 year old pissmopper being choked out by a middle age slump buster was not one of his better moments. This was a bit more like it, although it would have been even better had the kid been 11.

As for this becoming a big problem for the cops, no fukking way. This punk was wayyyyyy too white for it to have any legs in the press.

Only way a white kid in his predicament gets any run is if he's gay.

Luther wrote: I believe that their plan was probably to use the bean bag rounds, hoping they would put him down.

Maybe its just me...But I never thought of tossing bean bags as a means of law enforcement.

smackaholic wrote:
A 59 year old pissmopper being choked out by a middle age slump buster was not one of his better moments. This was a bit more like it, although it would have been even better had the kid been 11.

I believe the term was "jizzmopper". There is a difference, and an important one at that.

Derron wrote:

smackaholic wrote:
A 59 year old pissmopper being choked out by a middle age slump buster was not one of his better moments. This was a bit more like it, although it would have been even better had the kid been 11.

I believe the term was "jizzmopper". There is a difference, and an important one at that.

The voice of experience.

mvscal wrote:

Rack Fu wrote:The FBI policy is more or less: We may use deadly force only when the we have a reasonable belief that the subject of such force poses an imminent danger of death or serious physical injury to the officer or to another person.

That must explain why you pathetic asshats murdered Randy Weaver's wife on her own doorstep with her child in her arms.

well, another child from that lineage is an imminent threat on everyone that pays taxes into welfare.

Derron wrote:

smackaholic wrote:
A 59 year old pissmopper being choked out by a middle age slump buster was not one of his better moments. This was a bit more like it, although it would have been even better had the kid been 11.

I believe the term was "jizzmopper". There is a difference, and an important one at that.

my bad. musta been thinking of jess the human pissmop. guess i need to proofread a little more.

mvscal wrote:

Rack Fu wrote:The FBI policy is more or less: We may use deadly force only when the we have a reasonable belief that the subject of such force poses an imminent danger of death or serious physical injury to the officer or to another person.

That must explain why you pathetic asshats murdered Randy Weaver's wife on her own doorstep with her child in her arms and mowed down people trying to flee from a burning building in Waco.

Hot damn! I see my name in a callout thread and ain't seen no smack thrown my way so I've just been holding out waiting for the gauntlet to drop. Since it never did, I'll just grab some popcorn, RACK mvscal, and get ready for a nice rehash of a fantastic battle of long ago. GET 'IM, JULIO!!!

mvscal wrote:

Rack Fu wrote:The FBI policy is more or less: We may use deadly force only when the we have a reasonable belief that the subject of such force poses an imminent danger of death or serious physical injury to the officer or to another person.

That must explain why you pathetic asshats murdered Randy Weaver's wife on her own doorstep with her child in her arms and mowed down people trying to flee from a burning building in Waco.

The policy changed DUE to that incident (Ruby Ridge). And once again, there is zero proof that the FBI fired any shots in Waco. I have my own opinion, which I've expressed before, but there isn't any proof. I wasn't there.

Thanks for playing.

Nice explanation, asshat

:supermeds:

Dude, did mvscal just drop Ruby Ridge smack on Rack Fu?

That's so funny just on principle, I'll go ahead and rack it.


I mean, isn't that kind of the end-all, be-all any time Fu opens his hole?

Fu: Yeah, well I'm an FBI agent, and...

T1B: Nice job on the Weavers, douche.

Fu: No really, I'm an expert on such matters, because I've been an agent for like two whole years now, so my training is still fresh in my mind, and...

T1B: Fine marksmanship at Ruby Ridge, bro.


Not quite Irie-auto-response status, but auto-response staus nonetheless.

mvscal wrote:

Dinsdale wrote:T1B: Fine marksmanship at Ruby Ridge, bro.

Wasn't it though? Blew her head right off. Fuckin' housewives.

Well over that magic 20% average hit ratio, wasn't it?

All that does is drive everybody else's average down even more

edit: it drives everybody else's average UP, not down- which only creates a false positive impression

Well, when all the real crime has been fought, beauracracy dictates that the Fed then needs to declare war on individual states, so as to keep their budget allottment for the next fiscal year.

And unfortunately, in this case, it was just Idaho's turn.

Of course, as soon as the Bush administration came to power, he declared a ceas-fire, and instead declared war on Little Beruit and the state that houses it.


It's a money thing.[align=justify]

[align=justify]

wow...catchy.

I didn't type that.

And I would have fixed it, save for the fact...I wasn't about to read all of that.

I thought it was a new kcdave-esque signoff.

GREETINGS!!!!



[ALIGN=JUSTIFY]!!!!

Say what?

Did the cops yell, "YOUR IT!" after hitting the guy with the bean bags?

I thought that a game of Hacky-Sack had broken out, and things got out of control

PL wrote:

Luther wrote: I believe that their plan was probably to use the bean bag rounds, hoping they would put him down.

Maybe its just me...But I never thought of tossing bean bags as a means of law enforcement.

It's been standard practice ever since the hula-hoop barrage went horribly wrong at Waco.

Dinsdale wrote:Dude, did mvscal just drop Ruby Ridge smack on Rack Fu?

That's so funny just on principle, I'll go ahead and rack it.


I mean, isn't that kind of the end-all, be-all any time Fu opens his hole?

Fu: Yeah, well I'm an FBI agent, and...

T1B: Nice job on the Weavers, douche.

Fu: No really, I'm an expert on such matters, because I've been an agent for like two whole years now, so my training is still fresh in my mind, and...

T1B: Fine marksmanship at Ruby Ridge, bro.


Not quite Irie-auto-response status, but auto-response staus nonetheless.

Mvscal is as creative as 2 dumbshits separating from one of these troll boards and starting their own.

If you want a preview of his comedic expertise turn on your AM dial and go take a shit. His posts are like "Deal or No Deal", uncreative, cheap ass shit to keep the ignorant fucks laughing. They day that dipshit had a creative thought was the day he sniffed his finger after fucking up a toilet wipe.

You all should ban his ass and state :"less typing and more dick sucking!" His Hurricane Katrina black man relief effort did more for this country than giving another credit counseling agency an excuse to put a commercial on Rush Limbaugh, cuz "Limbaugh has ratings".