Kissinger on Iraq - Militarily we can't win?

[Atomic Punk]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061120/ap_ ... _kissinger

Militarily the war was over quickly. We won that. Politically the war will never be won.

The military isn't supposed to be a police force, but rather a "kick your ass" force and leave. For those of you losers that have never worn a uniform and love to bash the military, go smoke down another doobie or light up the crystal before you Canatard losers reply with your shit troll nation. This isn't about our military capability. It's about foreign policy, political will (balls). Obviously GW cornered himself with his "Islam is a peaceful religion" bullshit and this is what we are dealing with now. Islam under the false prophet is the result of the Crusades right?

The war has been over for a long time. The police action isn't something we can do because we don't have the capability to tell which Muzzie is friend or foe. In the meantime the post Vietnam generals that have backstabbed their way up the food chain have no idea how to tell the CIC how to conduct this action or how to pull out. I saw this when I was leaving the Navy back in '94. The officers in leadership positions were mostly pencil-pushing assholes that were nothing but public administrator types. It's prolly been like that foreve, but I'm just sayin' from what I've seen.

Those that didn't join the military to get benefits or school money, but did it because they have the fight in them know they are being played. The post Vietnam leadership knows only how to drop to their knees to suck off some elected official. That's my take on the Kissinger reaction. I'm sure that's what he really meant to say.

With that rant said, what do you esteemed posters think about what should be done next? The elections are over and 2008 is the next focus in Washington. With this lame duck congress, who knows what is going to happen? What I would do is pull back every troop into the netherlands of Iraq for a staging point. It would be like a "We are here but do want you want... as we conduct exercises and weapons tests."

I was told from the real Vietnam guys that the Muzzies respect power. We haven't shown it.

[poptart]

What I would do is pull back every troop into the netherlands of Iraq for a staging point. It would be like a "We are here but do want you want... as we conduct exercises and weapons tests."

Why would you do that .... ?

[Atomic Punk]

To be a credible threat where we could strike quickly. It's a containment deal with Syria and Iran in the equation. No brainer.

[PSUFAN]

Thanks, Hank. Your assessment is sure indeed timely.

At least he beat Robert McNamera to the punch...

[Atomic Punk]

You talkin' to me PSU? You have a take or do you want to munch some Pelosi tossed salad?

[Van]

You talkin' to me PSU? You have a take or do you want to munch some Pelosi tossed salad?

ZZ, PSU's comment to "Hank" would be in reference to Henry Kissinger...

[Atomic Punk]

Well, then pile-on for the moment. I can't get those transverse names down. I should watch more "King of the Hill" stuff from 3 or 4 years ago.

My apologies as I didn't "get it."

[PSUFAN]

do you want to munch some Pelosi tossed salad?

(the nance, revved up; not pictured; me flossing with her assrim hairs under the podium)

Sure, why not, I've seen worse looking old bitches.

[smackaholic]

The problem is we no longer have any balls as a nation. During WWII we knew we were in a fight and the entire fukking country treated it that way. We fukking played it to win. We absolutely crushed both the japs and krauts and they in no uncertain terms knew that they were on the wrong end of a serious asswhuppin.

As a result of our strong pimp hand they got in line pretty fukking magnificently.

With the muzzies things are different. we aren't there to slap them the fukk down. We are there to help them. When you need a pimp, you send in clint eastwood. We send in richard simmons.

The entire middle eastern muzzie/western debate could be solved tomorrow. If we just sat them down and said muzzies, it's like this. You got played by the jews, fair and square. They have a rather small, resource poor chunk of sand and are willing to share a rather important historical religious place, jerusalem, with you. You, get a piece of jerusalem, and the rest of the sand much of which is floating on a sea of earl.

Overall, despite being ohfer in wars over the last century or 5, you STILL pretty much have 'bode. Praise the fukk outta allah. Continue with the bullshit and [borat] we will CRAAAAAOOOOOOOSSSHHHH you.[/BORAT]

Then we sit back and wait. As soon as achmed steps to us, we put a very harsh pimp slap on him and a little bit of sand gets new ownership.

Repeat as necessary. Eventually the muzzies figure out that they loose everytime they play and they stop playing.

Problem is, being a good pimp takes balls and we have lost them. Where is Harry Truman when you need him?

[Atomic Punk]

Our will to wage war was lost when the media became the 4th branch of government. WW2 was pretty much the last time we were able to conquer. It will never happen again with the way our society has decayed.

Young people can now go out, get fucked in the ass, and get a special tatoo above their ass crack.

As soon as these crazy governments get the ability to deliver credible nuclear weapons on our soil, Hillary will blame Bush. Trust me on this one.

[PSUFAN]

You guys making comparisons with WWII are not understanding the situation. We are not fighting against a nation that is mobilized in opposition. We are fighting against an enemy that knows no borders or uniform. We cannot "pimp-slap" the muzzies and end this.

[Dinsdale]

Our ability to wage war pretty much went to shit when we started blaming our poor decisions and failures on the media.

[Mikey]

Our will to wage war will be fine when there's a war that needs to be fought.
You can't expect a country to get behind bullshit.

[Dinsdale]

As soon as these crazy governments get the ability to deliver credible nuclear weapons on our soil, Hillary will blame Bush. Trust me on this one.

Remind me again -- who was CIC when I'manidiotmangolly went nuts and decided he wanted to nuke the world, but the US forces were spread too thin to do anything about it?

I guess our military ability took a hit when we stopped holding fuckups in chage accountable for their actions ...and instead chose to blame the media.

[Dr_Phibes]

I've always equated 'political will' with necessity.

[Mr. Belvedere]

Our will to wage war was lost when the media became the 4th branch of government. WW2 was pretty much the last time we were able to conquer. It will never happen again with the way our society has decayed.

Young people can now go out, get fucked in the ass, and get a special tatoo above their ass crack.

As soon as these crazy governments get the ability to deliver credible nuclear weapons on our soil, Hillary will blame Bush. Trust me on this one.

The media is a tool of the fucking government. When they ceased being news organizations and became subsidieries of fox, disney, viacom and general electric, news gathering went out the window. Now it's all about the ratings, so lets continue to watch them felate a mvscal murderer and have 24/7 marathons about missing blond 18 yearold students on vacation.

[Mr. Belvedere]

mvscal, just checking.

[Atomic Punk]

I've always equated 'political will' with necessity.

Good point.

Then that becomes the secondary focus of debate. If there is no political will to defeat an enemy (in this case it's an expanding idealogy funded by our supposed allies in the mid-east), then focusing on one target in Afghanistan could be sold to the tatoo'd, body-pierced, XBOX playing masses of fools here.

We all know this is a political cluster fuck. What is your opinions (I've said that before in this thread) on how to end this shit? Mine is to keep a big time pressence where at least people that join the Air Force can feel safe... and they can have those air conditioned tents too.

It's easy to blame the Israelis for everything isn't it? I'm trying to think of one thing Israel has done other than go back after the Brits did something back in 1946 or 47. Bottom line is that there is a lot of money out there for greedy people to conduct whatever power plays they desire.

Terror is an international business. They get paid. They are poor and sell themselves for a false belief by those with the bucks. Corrupt politicians here do the same thing but while wearing a different hat. I keep hearing John McCain can't get elected because he's not extreme right enough.

So, I think I've laid this out and unless we go Nagasaki on a few cities. We can't win the political war even after these elections. So, what do you suggest?

[Diego in Seattle]

I'm thinking that we're going to end up dividing Iraq into three countries. If one of the factions shows it's unhappiness with their lot we start treating them like Israel treats the palestinians, only with a hell of a lot more than bulldozers.

[Diego in Seattle]

The problem is we no longer have any balls as a nation. During WWII we knew we were in a fight and the entire fukking country treated it that way.

It was a time that everyone knew that in order to win sacrifice would be required of everyone. You can't tell me that such an attitude can be expected when Bush is giving tax breaks to the rich while it's predominately the poor & middle classes that are doing the majority of fighting over there.

[smackaholic]

geeeezus, what a one trick pony you are diego. newsflash, the rich still pay more in taxes than the poor. their rates of paying go up and down a bit, mostly dependent on how well they hide their stash from the IRS, but they still pay more. What has been changing steadily is the amount the gubmint taxes all of us combined. And that total sure as hell ain't going down.

[Mikey]

Actually, the top marginal rate is the lowest it's been since 1932, except for a 5 year period from '88 - '92.

Also, the lowest rate as a percentage of taxable income since before 1950. Even lower than during those halcyon Reagan years.
You dittoheads keep believing all the bullshit that Grover Norquist and Limbaugh keep spewing and they're going to have you thinking that black is white and stop means go.

[Cuda]

Thanks, Hank. Your assessment is sure indeed timely.

At least he beat Robert McNamera to the punch...

Is this the same Henry Kissinger who got us out of Vietnam with dignity?


That Henry Kissinger?

We can only hope it works out for the muzzies the same way it worked out for the Cambodians.

Henry's problem is that he confuses "can't" with "won't". Must be something about the translation from German.

There's plenty we could do to "win", but first we* would have to admit we* were jerkling off for the last 3 years over there and start all over again. None of this is going to happen, of course, which is why the best course is to get the fuck out immediately, impeach the chimp, let the muzzies hack each other to death, and go back in when the muzzies much more peaceful**











*Chimpy


** Dead

[Goober McTuber]

MADISON, Wis. -- U.S. Sen. Russ Feingold, D-Wis., gave a lecture on "Thoughts On Post-9/11 Foreign Policy Issues" Saturday at the Madison Civics Club, telling the capacity audience that the fight against terrorism requires a greater understanding of the connections between countries and global situations.

Feingold, who recently announced that he will not run for president in 2008, currently sits on the Budget, Judiciary, Intelligence, and Foreign Relations committees in the Senate. After the Nov. 7 election placed Democrats in control of both houses of Congress, Feingold said he is looking to take a leadership role in the Senate on foreign policy issues.

He said that of all the daunting issues America faces, foreign policy issues after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks are the most pressing.

Feingold said 9/11 was "a wake-up call" that the United States needed to change from being fairly isolated into thinking more globally.

"I hope we learned that we must become a bigger part of the rest of the world. Our security, collectively and individually, here and abroad, will depend on how close we become to the family of nations around the world," Feingold said.

He said, five years after 9/11, America's responses to terrorism suggest we don't yet have a grasp of the whole issue and how the complicated interrelations between foreign countries play into the threat of terrorism.

Feingold said that he supported the war in Afghanistan, saying that he thought it was necessary and was handled well.

"Then out of the blue came Iraq. But that just didn't seem to fit with 9/11," he said.

Feingold displayed a list, consisting of countries where al-Qaeda was operating, that he said circulated around the White House after 9/11. He said that of the 45 countries on that list, Iraq was not one.

"Iraq was not even on the White House list -- just to give you an idea of how bizarre (the decision to go to war in Iraq) is," Feingold said.

He said that, in the fight against terrorism, the United States is spending too much time talking about Iraq while ignoring many other countries that pose a terror threat.

For example, he pointed out that Indonesia -- which is world's most populous Muslim nation -- is one of the most critical countries in the fight against al-Qaeda, and yet he said there is virtually no attention or discussion about it.

He said he is glad that President George W. Bush is finally visiting Indonesia. Bush is scheduled to visit the country on Monday. Feingold pointed out that he is only the second senator to visit Indonesia.

Feingold said that Africa also presents a number of critical issues related to terrorism, and that it is a growing haven for many terrorist operatives. He noted that terrorists blew up American embassies in Africa, not in Afghanistan or Iraq, and that the culprits went to South Africa to hide.

He said even though he was well-educated and studied abroad, at 39 years old he didn't know anything about Africa -- and he was on the Foreign Relations committee.

"And I spent 15 years since learning about (Africa). But I offer that as a commentary on how prepared this country was on 9/11," he said.

Feingold pointed out the fact that the northern part of Africa is only about 20 miles from the Middle East.

"But we don't think of them that way. We think of them as separate," he said, adding that the United States needs to work on determining the complicated interrelationships between various nations and terrorist groups.

Feingold offered several ideas of things he thinks the United States should work on in the post-9/11 world.

He said the government badly needs a "unity of purpose" to cut down on all the petty infighting and turf protecting. He also said that, to be effective against terrorists, the United States needs to be smarter in its allocation of military resources.

"We have 90 percent of our military resources on 5 percent of the problem (Iraq)," he said.

He said the United States should also work on reaching out to the rest of the world in a positive way.

"It begins at home, with how we treat Muslims here. We have to be an example to the rest of the world that we embrace Muslims here, and that will help us with moderate Muslims throughout the world," he said.

He said public diplomacy to other nations could also be improved to help our cause. Feingold said he was critical of Bush's use of the term "Islamic fascism," because it upset many Muslims around the world.

"Our goal is to isolate terrorists, not Muslims," Feingold said..

[Goober McTuber]

"Our goal is to isolate terrorists, not Muslims," Feingold said..

Confused on the concept.

Confused by intelligent discourse.

[Goober McTuber]

You read the whole article, and all you can come up with is that all Muslims are terrorists. That’s like saying that all Republicans are homosexual pedophiles. Oh wait, you might have a point.

[PSUFAN]

What I came up with is Russ Feingold channelling Marcus Allen with moronic paraphrases of the obvious

There's a lot of that going around. Kissinger gave it a go as well.

[Goober McTuber]

You read the whole article, and all you can come up with is that all Muslims are terrorists.

That's not what I came up with. What I came up with is Russ Feingold channelling Marcus Allen with moronic paraphrases of the obvious while criticising the administration for doing exactly what he suggests they do.

Anyone who thinks Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism is a fucking idiot. The war didn't begin and it isn't going to end in Iraq. Iraq was just one part of it.

He’s criticizing the administration for focusing 90% of the military in one spot that never presented the greatest threat. I haven’t seen them take any steps towards correcting that. Bush has managed to alienate much of the world without inspiring any fear in our enemies whatsoever.

[Uncle Fester]

I think Kissinger and Feingold make good points.

You don't defeat suicidal religious fanatics engaged in guerilla warfare by sending in conventional armies and high tech weapons. It just doesn't work.

So rather than sit back and be targeted as villains, let's get Iraq's neighbors involved. Challenge them to step up and help find a solution.

If Ahmadinejad wants to taunt the world with threats of nuclear weapons, let him. Bush should call him out along with other Arab leaders and convene a summit meeting for Iraq.

[PSUFAN]

I think Kissinger and Feingold make good points.

I think they're cherry-picking.

Where were these sensibilities as the war was being envisioned?

[Cuda]

You don't defeat suicidal religious fanatics engaged in guerilla warfare by sending in conventional armies and high tech weapons. It just doesn't work.

True.

You defeat them by slaughtering so many of them that the survivors decide they'd rather live than be fanatics.

Chimpy & Rummy weren't about to do that.

Neither is anybody else in political leadership... yet

[Uncle Fester]

Slaughter whole villages? You mean like the Nazis did? Sorry, that doesn't work in the long run.

And cherry picking? I agree 100 percent, but the question is where do we go from here. If we pull everybody out, the whole thing implodes. If we challenge the critics (Arab and otherwise) to offer some solutions than at least we've asked.

[Goober McTuber]

The second being that the Iraq front is the most active military front, so it clearly stands to reason that our largest military efforts should be focused there.

Isn't it the most active military front because we stuffed so much of our military in there? Oh, and you’re going to whip Al Queda by carpet-bombing Iraq? Cause after you blow the fuck out of Iraq, you only have 45 more countries to destroy.

[Goober McTuber]

The second being that the Iraq front is the most active military front, so it clearly stands to reason that our largest military efforts should be focused there.

Isn't it the most active military front because we stuffed so much of our military in there?

Is that supposed to have any relevance?

I don't know. It was your justification.

[Cuda]

Oh, and you’re going to whip Al Queda by carpet-bombing Iraq? Cause after you blow the fuck out of Iraq, you only have 45 more countries to destroy.

We've got plenty of conventional bombs and they're relatively easy & cheap to replentish.

We've also got plenty of nukes if it should come to that.

[Goober McTuber]

Cooter,

We’re trying to have an intelligent conversation regarding Iraq. Isn’t there some tarded-up thread on Hostboard just begging for a Blondie Babe reset?

[XXXL]

I would gather that our team has informed the globe that we can wreak havoc when and where we need to. Further, I follow diplomacy before war, and when that doesn't work, our team has the means to take out those who need to be taken out.

Saddam could have taken a deal, but he learned and others will when they ignore our diplomatic messages.

I call it a win, irregardless of those who say otherwise...

[Mikey]

Irregardless is not a real word, regardless of what you may think, and should not be used irrespectively.

[RadioFan]

Is that supposed to have any relevance?

I don't know. It was your justification.

The answer is no.

Try to actually think for yourself a bit here. You have no idea what the administration is attempting to accomplish. That isn't entirely your fault. This administration has very poorly articulated its objectives and methods.

The mission is to combat Islam practiced as a radical political ideology. Bush Administration fuck up #1: They failed to clearly articulate precisely what it is we are fighting. Terrorism is a tactic. A War on Terrorism is semantic nonsense. No surprise to see that message garbled.

I understand the reasoning behind it. Namely to avoid inflaming Muslims and provide political cover to the Muslim nations which are assisting us in the war. The unfortunate downside to that bit of moral cowardice is that we as a nation aren't clear on what we're fighting.

Being that this is primarily an ideological conflict, the method chosen to confront this challenge was to present an workable alternative ideology: Democracy and with it personal and economic freedom. This meant abandoning our Cold War Real Politik support for thuggish dictators who could keep the craziness down to a dull roar.

Now given the mission and the method, who is likely to offer armed resistance to that program and where do you begin?

RACK
RACK
RACK

The WWII analogies are both correct and incorrect.

The unfortunate downside to that bit of moral cowardice is that we as a nation aren't clear on what we're fighting.

And as importantly, that "bit of moral cowardice" is also a major factor in the "enemy," because, obviously, we're not fighting a standing army, nor even a nation-state.

That bit of moral cowardice is the suicide bomber, obviously. Even in the Muslim world, some understand it, only they are in no position to do anything about it, other than "advise," which in many cases, probably means a lot.

The suicide bomber ... Where he comes from and why -- the root of the problem -- the Madrasses in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Indonesia and the Palestinian territories.

Hell, in many of these countries, during the first day of school for kids, the first thing they learn is the chant, "Death to America." It doesn't mean they believe any of that bullshit, but they're still indoctrinated from day 1.

mvscal is right: We can't possibly wage this war when our own definitions of what we're fighting are fucked up from the beginning. Simplistic bullshit from another time. Upgrade the rhetoric from our side, mensas. That would be a nice start.

[BSmack]

I was told from the real Vietnam guys that the Muzzies respect power. We haven't shown it.

Lots of Muslims in Viet Nam?