T1B

Of all the hypocritical pontificating bullshit with which we've been inflicted as a nation in the past few years, this might just top it all. Mark McGuire personally resuscitated baseball from the virtual stroke it had suffered following the '95 strike. So what if he was juiced? What counts--always--is the energy and excitement generated by the game. And he brought it home. And if he made that sacrifice--loss of testicles, soul, and temper--well so much the more gratitude he deserves. Obviously steroids are dreadful, but they won't supply any talent or skill.

But they will provide the ability to whack a ball over a wall.

I get what you mean, though. The home run chase was the only time baseball registered a blip on the outside world (apart from the earthquake Series), so he deserves some recognition.

What happened to his charitable work for kids, btw? Was that a front or was he the real deal?

So build a special wing in the Hall for steroid users....

LTS TRN 2 wrote:...following the '95 strike.

There was a strike in 1995 too?

didn't you hear, ucant? it was kinda short though, unlike the '94 strike, so only real hardcore fans like LTS know about it.

I think Mark McGwire should go into the Hall...the same day Pete Rose does. Good luck.

How many hits did Macandro have in his career?

1626...

Batting average of .263

That's not HoF material.

His only justification for making the hall was the single season hr record, which he did thanks to the juice.

He can get in line behind the other more worthy players who never got in.

Otis,
You can compare his stats to other similar players and decide for yourself.


http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mcgwima01.shtml

Otis wrote:How many hits did Macandro have in his career?

1626...

Batting average of .263

That's not HoF material.

Add in 1300+ walks, the .394 OBP, and 583 HR and he has to be considered at least, right?

I once drove 400 miles to Montreal just to see McGuire and the Cards play the Expos. And I made sure I got there early and watched him take BP. Millions upon millions of fans came to the park early to see the man who was undeniably the greatest pure power hitter of this age simply take BP. If that doesn't say Hall of Fame, I don't know what does.

Break his silence and prove he's clean and I'm sure the voters would bend over backwards to get him in next year. Instead, by him not disputing claims that he's dirty...everyone is left to assume he was dirty. He was one of my favorite players growing up but the guy has inflated numbers because of his inflated physique...he doesn't belong in the Hall.

That year with him and Sosa and getting caught up in it and finding out later it was a fraud pisses me with him but I'm also pissed at baseball for not going after the cheaters earlier. I don't need a home run chase to keep me interested in the sport...I just want an honest and clean game that is done right way. There will be only one Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron and Willie Mays...we don't need to chemically alter today's players to match and surpass what they did on their own natural gifts.

BSmack wrote:I once drove 400 miles to Montreal just to see McGuire and the Cards play the Expos. And I made sure I got there early and watched him take BP.

Did you stay... and be a part of the 4,378 paid attendance for the game as well?

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote:

BSmack wrote:I once drove 400 miles to Montreal just to see McGuire and the Cards play the Expos. And I made sure I got there early and watched him take BP.

Did you stay... and be a part of the 4,378 paid attendance for the game as well?

It was a big day for a Expos. They had 14,000 that day. 10,000 of whom came out just to see McGuire. That was the day I knew baseball had no chance in Montreal. It was obvious that the city had just given up on baseball when they couldn't even draw a sellout for a Saturday night game featuring Mark McGuire in 1999.

The funny thing about that game? It's the only game I have ever been to where the bleachers were packed and the rest of the stadium was nearly empty. It was freakin hilarious watching the kids in the bleachers damn near kill each other trying to catch the BP homers.

RACK Shoalzie!!

R-Jack wrote:He'll never get into the Hall if people can't agree how to spell his name.

Damn.

You may be on to something... I wonder if you add up all of the votes for McGwire, MacGuire, McGuire, MacGyver, and MuffDiver... would he would have gotten the necessary 75%??

LTS......no Dick Cheyney involvment on this? I'm sure you could work him in somehow. Seriously, steroids don't help anyone's hand/eye coordination. It was still McGwire/Bonds measuring those pitches and hitting them. I've never seen anyone hit the ball on a line with such consistency than Bonds and injections of bull testosterone or whatever don't aid in that. That said, those guys have had a little help getting the ball over the wall. And that jerks with the integrity of the game. I'm so much more comfortable with Aaron/Ruth/Mays/Reggie/etc. and their numbers. Just get a better feeling of legitimacy.

As for what McGwire did for sick kids or charities or homes for humanity or whatever, I couldn't care less. Ditto with "making the game interesting." Pffft. Hall of Fame isn't for being a "niiiiiiiiice guy." There are other awards for that. It's about being a singular player that rose above all others for an extended amount of time. And McGwire/Bonds easily qualify for that. But are their numbers/achievements legit? I can sort of see both sides of it but if you let them in, it sort of slaps Aaron/Ruth/Mays/Reggie/etc. in the face.

Two of the biggest bastards in the history of the game, Ty Cobb and Pete Rose, had one thing in common...they played hard and they didn't cheat the game. In Rose's case, he cheated the game off the field but on the field, you can't dispute the fact he played hard. Any guy who could run over a catcher in an All-Star Game is an honest ballplayer.

With this whole steroids thing...I don't know how much of it is players flat out cheating or baseball allowing players to stretch the rules in order to give the game more visibility following labor disputes. I don't trust Selig in all of this and I don't think I ever will. If the NFL can bust and suspend star players like Shawn Merriman and not bend the rules for certain guys...what is baseball's reasoning for why we see this drug policy take so long to come around and now we just see marginal major leaguers get nailed and not guys we all assume are juice-heads.

I know of McGwire's charitable work and he wasn't a hulking guy from day 1. Under baseball's rules, he never cheated but in the hearts of purist fans, no one with a chemical-altered body should be allowed to receive the same glory as those before them that never did the things they did to their bodies and were great on natural ability.

They call steroids a performance-enhancing drug...you can have a natural skill but taking a drug will allow you to perform at higher level than what is usually impossible in most normal people. Yes, Bonds can see and hit a ball probably as good anyone has ever been able to but the guy was never as deadly with the longball earlier in his career as he is now. He gets all of these walks because simply teams don't want him putting instant runs up on the board.

It's really a matter of interpretation...whether or not a player using performance-enhancing drugs during an era that didn't prohibit that practice should be punished retroactively or should there just be a special category for the Bonds and McGwires of the world that were still great players but their careers were affected by the things they did to their own bodies to enchance their performance. A Hall of Famer player should be a natural-born specimen...not a good player that got better with the assistance of something articificial.

Shoalzie wrote:A Hall of Famer player should be a natural-born specimen...not a good player that got better with the assistance of something articificial.

Today's players have the edge on yesteryear's players for a lot of "un-natural" reasons. Better equipment, better technology, school lunch programs, and better science behind their training.

Is that "unfair" ?


I don't believe in "natural-born" specimens. I believe it takes a lot of work and un-natural effort and risk to get to a hall of fame level.

Sure genetics plays a role, but the streets are replete with genetic potential whose work ethic and heart failed them.


I liked Mac and thought him to be a class guy. I still think so, but did he break a law and/or a MLB policy (assuming he did 'roid up) ?

I'm pissed, too.

Since when the fuck do guys who are truly nothing more than one-tool players get in on the forst ballot?

While he was great at what he did, Gwynn was the very definition of a "one-tooler."

Cal? Almost an icon, but what was dude's career BA? Without looking it up, I'll guess about .280? And the whole baseball world seems to have forgotten that whole cocaine dealio with the Ripkins(although to his credit, Cal became a model citizen after that shoe dropped).

I seem to remember a day when getting in on the first ballot was a rare honor, reserved for once-in-a-generation players. I can think of very few current or recent players whose name should even be mention in the same breath as "first ballot," and Cal and Tony ain't it.

Jeter? Maybe.

Big Unit? Maybe.

Pedro? Maybe.

Rocket? Probably (even though he's a juicer, he at least did a good job keeping his name out of the fray).

Rickey? Definitely.


But Punch-n-Judy Gwynn? WTF? How about we put Manny Mendoza in there? Decades later, and his hitting achievements still get brought up on a near-daily basis.


With or without the juice, if Mac made the first ballot, I'd have been tempted to go burn the Hall to the ground.


BTW --

Mustang wrote:Seriously, steroids don't help anyone's hand/eye coordination.

No, but HGH does. And all of the performance-enhancers increase bat speed. Increased bat speed = watching a pitch longer. Watching a pitch longer = MUCH higher chances of putting the sweet spot to it.

Duh. That's why it's easier to drill a 10 year old's fastball than it is Nolan Ryan's.

Dinsdale wrote: How about we put Manny Mendoza in there? Decades later, and his hitting achievements still get brought up on a near-daily basis.

Manny Mendoza? Offspring of Manny Mota and Mario Mendoza? :D

Kansas City Kid wrote:Mario Mendoza?

:busted:

Uhm....Manny was Mario's slightly-poorer hitting 2nd baseman brother. Should have seen them two bitches turning doubles in AAA...they were a holy terror...


Yeah...that's it.


No first-ballot induction for me.

Shoalzie wrote:Two of the biggest bastards in the history of the game, Ty Cobb and Pete Rose, had one thing in common...they played hard and they didn't cheat the game.

So Pete Rose, by betting on games in which he was involved, didn't cheat baseball?


Think with your brain, Shoalz, and not your heart.

Dinsdale wrote:While he was great at what he did, Gwynn was the very definition of a "one-tooler."

You're right... it's not like the dude didn't win 5 Gold Gloves or have 319 career SB (in 1987 he had 56 of them, btw) or anything.



I know you like to troll and stuff... and I am actually a huge fan of your work, but dude, can I have a hit off your crack pipe??? Seriously.

.338 career batting average. Eight... yes, 8 batting titles. 3,141 hits.... 3,000 of which were singles --->

Yeah. Hit me up with the Prudential Building... I want of piece of your rock.

Bizzarofelice wrote: Think with your brain, Shoalz

Apparently, you haven't read too many of Schotzie's sports "takes."

Here's to the saddest of possible words
Mendoza to Mendoza to Mac

Trio of AAA-ers, fleeter than birds
Mendoza to Mendoza to Mac

Ruthlessly pricky our gonfallon bubble
Turning a Giant hit into a double

Words that are weighty with nothing but trouble
Mendoza to Mendoza to Mac!

Tom In VA wrote:Today's players have the edge on yesteryear's players for a lot of "un-natural" reasons. Better equipment, better technology, school lunch programs, and better science behind their training.

Those hitters of today have such an advantage. Especially because the pitchers don't have the same advantage. All pitchers are actually brought forward in time from 1890 to the present all scrawny and weak and prone to the advantages of the hitters.

If you retards want to have a serious baseball discussion, wake the 314 up. Until then, continue with your slapfest.

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote:Yeah. Hit me up with the Prudential Building... I want of piece of your rock.

Excellent. Unfortunately, the gookmart down the street put the Choreboys behind the counter, making them much tougher to lift.


And my bad...with Six-Pack-Neck's stats, I thought that the "SB" stood for how many "Single Burgers" he'd eat per sitting once he cracked age 30.

Don't get me wrong...I'm all about TG going to his rightfully-earned place in the hall...next year.

I didn't mean to imply he wasn't a great player...he clearly was. Just not first-ballot material, imo. Close, but not quite.

As much as I liked Big Mac, I cant argue that he deserves to get in. I just wish that Clemens would receive the same treatment as Mac and Bonds. His career is eerily similar to Bonds and yet he is given a free pass.

Kansas City Kid wrote:Here's to the saddest of possible words
Mendoza to Mendoza to Mac

Trio of AAA-ers, fleeter than birds
Mendoza to Mendoza to Mac

Ruthlessly pricky our gonfallon bubble
Turning a Giant hit into a double

Words that are weighty with nothing but trouble
Mendoza to Mendoza to Mac!

Well, if that wasn't just entirely out of left field...


I'm a sucker for impromptu poetry....RACK.

Dinsdale wrote:

Bizzarofelice wrote: Think with your brain, Shoalz

Apparently, you haven't read too many of Schotzie's sports "takes."

I don't mind being called for bull shit when it's warranted but Bizz left out the next sentence in my take. I know killing another person's opinion is easy when you just use part of what they say.

The part Bizz left out...

In Rose's case, he cheated the game off the field but on the field, you can't dispute the fact he played hard. Any guy who could run over a catcher in an All-Star Game is an honest ballplayer.

Cicero wrote:His career is eerily similar to Bonds and yet he is given a free pass.

Oh no, dude.

Just ask any of the 40-ish posters on this board -- guys just naturally slim down and get majorly ripped as they approach 40, even after working out half as hard...


no, really.

Dinsdale wrote:Cal? Almost an icon, but what was dude's career BA? Without looking it up, I'll guess about .280? And the whole baseball world seems to have forgotten that whole cocaine dealio with the Ripkins(although to his credit, Cal became a model citizen after that shoe dropped).

I never forgot it, because I never heard about it. Care to enlighten the group?

^^^

Me either. Explain.

Dinsdale wrote:
I didn't mean to imply he wasn't a great player...he clearly was. Just not first-ballot material, imo. Close, but not quite.

Nice trolling job, but that ain't going to wash.

Dinsdale wrote:And my bad...with Six-Pack-Neck's stats, I thought that the "SB" stood for how many "Single Burgers" he'd eat per sitting once he cracked age 30.

Granted, the term super sizing was coined in the mid 90s after watching waistline balloon up. Still.. for many, many years he was a legit 3 tool player. You can't take those years away from him.

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote:

Dinsdale wrote:And my bad...with Six-Pack-Neck's stats, I thought that the "SB" stood for how many "Single Burgers" he'd eat per sitting once he cracked age 30.

Granted, the term super sizing was coined in the mid 90s after watching waistline balloon up. Still.. for many, many years he was a legit 3 tool player. You can't take those years away from him.

There's a simple explanation for Dinsdale's position on Gwynn.

Dinsdale wrote:I've been burning a lot of weed the last few days, therefore George Harrison solo stuff has deep meaning.

Gwynn could've been horrible in the field but the guy is arguably the best pure hitter of his era and that alone should put him in the Hall. For him to only second to Ty Cobb for most seasons hitting over .300...that's saying something. If home run hitters will get in for what they do...Gwynn should get in for being one of the best contact hitters the game has ever seen. He made hitting a simple single into an artform.

Kind of funny with baseball...Gwynn can be hailed as great for hitting safely 30% of the time while in other sports...if you shot 30% from the floor or completed just 30% of your passes, you're riding the pine or out of a job.


EDITTED--Arrested by the grammar police on charges of murdering the English language

Bizzarofelice wrote: If you retards want to have a serious baseball discussion

I thought we were talking 'roids.

Shoalzie wrote:Gwynn could be a horrible in the field .

Huh?

Maybe he meant

"Gwynn could be a horrible farter in the field"

And not necessarily

"Gwynn could be horrible in the field"