T1B

Has anyone else been following the Charlie Weis temper tantrum since signing day. This guy is really unbelievable. First he goes on national television and calls out Greg Little. "I asked the kid if he knew what word commitment means." I wonder if he asked Brian Smith the same question when he got him to de-commit from Iowa. Guess Cheesesteak wants it both ways. Lots of schools had kids de-commit, but only Charlie Weis felt the need to call out an individual recruit on national TV. That type of unprofessional behavior is, and has already caught up with ND, just ask Arrelious Benn.
Mike Gottfried also claimed that ND was behind the negative NY Times article about Illinois recruiting that came out yesterday. Or as Gottfried put it " A certain midwest school that has lost some recruits to Illinois has been crying."
Now after feeling betrayed yesterday Weis is implementing a new recruiting strategy.

From South Bend Tribune:
In the meantime, Weis has already reconstructed the letters he sends to prospects, underscoring that mixed feelings will no longer have any part in his future recruiting classes.

"No soft verbals, no silent verbals, no quiet verbals," he said. "Either you're committed or you're not committed. It's like your married to somebody, but then you're looking at other women. I don't think there's any in-between there.

"And I think one of the things we're going to make sure we do differently than we've done in the past is that when a guy wants to say yes to us, there's a clear understanding from everyone that they're not going to go visit anywhere else. They're not going to talk to anyone else. They're either committed to us, or you're not."

This strategy of not allowing visits or communication will only backfire on Weis. Mack Brown can use this strategy because 99% of the talent he recruits is in-state. So he has alot of pull with the local high schools, and communities. ND and Weis on the other hand recruit nationally and national recruiting is a whole other beast. When ND goes after a guy most of the time the are trying to steal them outta some else's backyard where most of the coaches and pressure is for the kid to stay in-state. If Weis thinks he can keep a kid in Los Angeles from talking to Pete Carroll, while he is in South Bend then is just plain crazy. I think Carroll has proven the way to get kids to go to your school is to let the kids take all their visits, examine all their options, and be open with them. Not to try and control them and prevent them from exploring all their options.

Try to work this one through. I'll even hold your hand.

Greg Little committed to ND back in April. He didn't want to go public with it, Weis said fine. When he finally did go public with it in November, Weis stopped recruiting other recievers. In the mean time, Davis continued to recruit Little and asked that Little not tell the ND coaches that they were doing that. Little never made the coaches aware of this situation.

The day before signing day, Little told the ND coaches, some players, and the rivals and scout guys that he was signing with ND. Then he signs with UNC.

Let's look at Brian Smith. Smith made it very well known early on that if ND offered a scholarship, he would commit. His dad was a player at ND and sits on the board of directors for the monogram club. ND passed on him and he committed to Iowa.

When ND missed on other recruits at LB, they went back to Smith and asked him if they could recruit him. He said yes. They offered him a scholarship and wanted him to visit. He called Ferentz and Ferentz told him that if he visited, he no longer had a scholarship with Iowa.

Can you see the difference?

And as for Weis's strategy, let him do it for a year before you say that it will backfire.

Oh, and you aren't going to cheer for Ronald Johnson or Joe McKnight, are you? I mean, they aren't from California.

SoCalTrjn wrote:ND and Weis on the other hand recruit nationally and national recruiting is a whole other beast. When ND goes after a guy most of the time the are trying to steal them outta some else's backyard where most of the coaches and pressure is for the kid to stay in-state.

I'd like to assume that the word in bold is a figure of speech. But given the other comments you've made on this topic, I highly doubt it.

Recruits are not the property of the state they reside in, or of the 1-A football programs in that state. What part of that are you having difficulty with?

Btw, as to the ND-Illinois recruiting battles referenced on the other thread, national recruiting scenarios don't always apply. If a recruit comes down to between ND and Illinois, more often than not said recruit is from the Chicago area. Now, I know you'll be quick to point out that Illinois is an in-state school and ND is an out-of-state school. Technically, that's correct, but if you can actually see beyond the Illinois-Indiana border, there's more to it than that.

Far and away, the largest contingent of ND alumni live in the Chicago area (which is not to say that all, or even a majority, of ND alums live there). And if you look at a map, you'll see that ND is actually closer to Chicago than is the University of Illinois. So does Illinois have an in-state recruiting advantage vs. ND for a Chicago-area recruit. I'd have to say no, nor should they.

Killian wrote:Oh, and you aren't going to cheer for Ronald Johnson or Joe McKnight, are you? I mean, they aren't from California.

Neither was Jarrett or Booty, for that matter. This guy's a hypocrite. He wants to eliminate USC's out-of-state competition for California recruits, but he's fine with USC also recruiting out-of-state.

You can sense Charlie melting down. I'm starting to wonder if I was right about him being the right guy for that job. His first 2 years have been miserable failures. I don't even wanna hear about their BCS berths, that was only because of who they were not because they deserved it. 2 years in and dude hasn't been a single quality team and every prime-time game he's been in his team has been rolled by double digits. And next year, if he even makes a bowl game it may be a miracle. We all know how Irish fans are. They have no patience. They still think Notre Dame should be competing for National titles every year. Oh sure, Irish fans understand right now that next year will be a rebuilding year but wait until the season starts and the Irish take beating after beating and then Irish fan's patience will be tested. I will guarantee this......by mid season next year a strong group of Notre Dame fans will be crying for a coaching change. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when next year.

And Charlie knows this. And Charlie knows that if he doesn't start winning fast, he's going to have to spend the rest of his coaching career at ND answering questions about his future and taking heat from the fans. And so everytime a player decommits or he loses out on a big recruit, I think he's frustrated. He thought he could come to ND with his NFL background and with the tradition of that program and just cherry pick recruits. He thought every player that had the grades to get into ND would play for them. But the problem is, that's not the case. Sure, he's got himself a ton of big-time recruits on offense but this is a team that desperately needs defensive talent and the lack of depth in his 2 recruiting classes could come back to haunt him. And he knows this. This is why he's melting down. He has no time to turn this program back into a national power. The fans won't be patient, the media won't be patient. If he doesn't win now, his life in South Bend will be miserable. And if Charlie doesn't get ND back to the promised land, Notre Dame football as we know it may be finished for a long time. But Charlie cannot melt down. He can't let what's going on at Illinois bother him. Whining about it won't bring those recruits to South Bend. If he's melting down about recruiting, just wait until the fans start giving him the business for going 6-6 next year. This could get ugly for Charlie.

Congrats on your NC next year, ND Fan.

Oh, and no one is allowed to say cheesesteak without posting the ultimate cheesesteak.



Ok...need to leave cul-de-sac talk in the sac.

I am going to hunt you down and fucking punch you.

Killian wrote:I am going to hunt you down and fucking punch you.

I second that!

NOJ, NOJ, NOJ, . . .

TheJON wrote:I don't even wanna hear about their BCS berths, that was only because of who they were not because they deserved it.

ND was an automatic qualifier in '05, the BCS had no discretion not to take them.

In '06, ND was not an automatic qualifier. But Michigan's BCS bid (Michigan was an automatic qualifier) eliminated Wisconsin, and LSU's BCS bid eliminated both Auburn and Arkansas from consideration. When the final at-large bid came up, ND was one of only two remaining eligible teams and was the higher ranked of the two (West Virginia was the other).

If you want to argue that the rules benefit ND to too great an extent, and that they should be changed, fine. But to suggest that ND somehow got some sort of preferential treatment from the BCS the last two years because of their reputation is purely asinine. Under the rules, ND was a perfectly legitimate BCS selection in each of the last two years.

And btw, before somebody accuses me of "hiding behind the rules," whatever that means, let me state that as long as we're stuck with the BCS, I support a "meritocracy" rule. There are 10 BCS bids. If ND finishes in the Top 10, they get a BCS bid. If not, they don't. I only have one condition: the same rule applies to everybody. In other words, it's not good enough merely to win your conference -- you also have to be in the Top 10 to get a BCS bid. Tell me, how many of the BCS conferences do you think would sign up for such a rule?

And next year, if he even makes a bowl game it may be a miracle.

You honestly expect ND to win fewer than 6-7 games next year? Go ahead, show your work on that one.

Btw, there is a contingent among ND's fanbase who have a "national championship or bust" approach to bowl games, and believe that we should decline all bowl bids that do not have national championship implications. I can sympathize with that mindset to a point, but it's probably not practical in this day and age anymore. '96 was the last time we turned down bowl bids, and the national media lambasted us for that one.

We all know how Irish fans are. They have no patience. They still think Notre Dame should be competing for National titles every year. Oh sure, Irish fans understand right now that next year will be a rebuilding year but wait until the season starts and the Irish take beating after beating and then Irish fan's patience will be tested.

With reference to the above, I think the answer here depends on how you see next season turning out for ND. You apparently see ND going somewhere around 5-7, and if so, you're probably right. I see ND somewhere in the neighborhood of 8-4 next season. If that happens, I'm inclined to give Weis a pass next season, and I expect most ND fans would agree. However, I probably will not be quite so charitable in '08.

I will guarantee this......by mid season next year a strong group of Notre Dame fans will be crying for a coaching change. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when next year.

No doubt, there are some ND fans who think ND should never lose a game, no matter what. That group probably wants a coaching change already. Fortunately, they're still in the minority for now.

TheJON wrote:You can sense Charlie melting down. I'm starting to wonder if I was right about him being the right guy for that job. His first 2 years have been miserable failures.

Rest assured, you're not right.

And miserable failures? That defines the 8 year stretch before he got there. ND has been to two straight BCS games. That can't be spun as "miserable failures" now matter what rape juice you want to throw up there.

Killian wrote:

TheJON wrote:You can sense Charlie melting down. I'm starting to wonder if I was right about him being the right guy for that job. His first 2 years have been miserable failures.

Rest assured, you're not right.

And miserable failures? That defines the 8 year stretch before he got there. ND has been to two straight BCS games. That can't be spun as "miserable failures" now matter what rape juice you want to throw up there.

Killian,

I agree with what you're saying here on the merits. But I think when JON said, "I'm starting to wonder if I was right . . ." that he's saying that when Weis was first hired, he thought Weis was the right guy for the job.

I suppose I could be wrong about that, though. That post is nowhere near as clear as it could/should have been.

Terry,

Could be. I thought he posted when he was hired that he was not the guy for the job. I remember getting into it with him about Weis and his play calling at NE. That could be tainting my memory, I admit.

And if you hadn't responded, I wouldn't have even know he posted, so thanks!

I think ND goes anywhere from 5-7 to 7-5. No better, no worse. I think they'll drop their first 4 road games. The Michigan State and Georgia Tech home games are just about toss-ups with slight edge to ND. Forget about the USC game, that will be a bludgeoning. The Boston College game is also a toss-up. I do think they'll most likely win their last 4 games, but remember......this is a young team. And, regardless of talent, young teams tend to lose a game or 2 they aren't supposed to. I think 8-4 is a big stretch with that schedule and as much inexperience as ND will put out on the field. I cannot see Notre Dame fans tolerating that. They might say now that they understand, but wait until some unexpected team comes into South Bend and pulls an upset or USC goes in there and wins by 40.

But there is absolutely no way Irish fans will tolerate a sub-par 2008 season after a .500 or worse 2007 year. If Charlie doesn't win 10-11 games in 2008, his life will be a living hell until he's gone from there. But again, will his team be able to play any defense in 2008? If not, they'll be right back to where they were this year. That style of play works against the Military Academies or middle of the pack major conference teams, but it doesn't work against the USC's and LSU's of the world. So unless they play some defense in 2008, it will be a similar year as it was in 2006 and 2007 and there is no way Irish fans will find that acceptable. But realistically, is there hope for putting together a good defense within a year? Taking a look at the recruits on defense, I don't see much of an increase in talent. So unless they start developing defensive players, I wouldn't be so confident a national title is on the horizon anytime soon.

Killian,

No, I was on here saying that losing Urban Meyer to Florida was a blessing in disguise for ND and that Meyer was better suited for Florida because he would be inheriting a boat load of talent whereas Weis would have to do a better job of actually building the program. I thought Weis was a better fit for a program that needed to be turned around than a guy coming from Utah.

@ Pittsburgh
@ Michigan
Mich St.
@ Washington
@ Purdue
USC

ND was expected to be 1-5, possibly 0-6, after that schedule in 2005. They came out and went 4-2, almost beating the greatest team ever assembled, high school, college or pro.

I'm no ND fan (hate'em actually) but 8-4 isn't out of the question. 2005 proved that.

Well, yeah, but that's only because Purdue, Michigan, and Pittsburgh were a lot worse than expected. It wasn't because ND was that good. It was more that those teams were overrated in the preseason. I suppose the same thing could happen next year, but like I said, this is going to be a very young team. And young teams tend to lose games they aren't supposed to, which is why I'd be worried about the Georgia Tech game to open the season even though I don't think Tech will be that good next year.

TheJON wrote:Well, yeah, but that's only because Purdue, Michigan, and Pittsburgh were a lot worse than expected. It wasn't because ND was that good. It was more that those teams were overrated in the preseason. I suppose the same thing could happen next year, but like I said, this is going to be a very young team. And young teams tend to lose games they aren't supposed to, which is why I'd be worried about the Georgia Tech game to open the season even though I don't think Tech will be that good next year.

They also tend to win a game or two they aren't supposed to.

And I do remember that now (Meyer/Weis) and I agreed with you.

TheJON wrote:Well, yeah, but that's only because Purdue, Michigan, and Pittsburgh were a lot worse than expected. It wasn't because ND was that good.

Yeah, but ND wasn't expected to be very good either and they came out pretty deece.

TheJON wrote:Well, yeah, but that's only because Purdue, Michigan, and Pittsburgh were a lot worse than expected. It wasn't because ND was that good. It was more that those teams were overrated in the preseason.

Yes, those teams were overrated in the preseason. But ND also was underrated in the preseason. The entire season proved that.

I suppose the same thing could happen next year, but like I said, this is going to be a very young team. And young teams tend to lose games they aren't supposed to, which is why I'd be worried about the Georgia Tech game to open the season even though I don't think Tech will be that good next year.

We have Georgia Tech at home to start next season, and their main offensive weapon is gone. I'm not too worried about that one.

If someone comes up and surprises us early, imho it would be either Michigan State (always plays us well at ND), and/or Purdue (always plays us well at Purdue, at least under Tiller). But if we drop to both Penn State and Michigan, the timing of those games makes both of them "must win" games for us. Thus, there's little likelihood of either team catching us flat. Or if they do, that'll mean that we will have pulled an upset against either Penn State or Michigan.

But you're right in one respect: the early part of next year's schedule is the key. If we come out 3-2 (realistic) or better (longshot) in our first five games, I think we can win 8 or 9. That won't be good enough for the BCS, but it will guarantee a bowl bid somewhere.