T1B

I was reading some 60 Minutes clips on Yahoo about Lou Dobbs and his anti illegal obsession and I think I realize that I really have no care about the issue. Either way. None.

So to those of you that want to build a fence, go ahead. To those that want to try and stop them, knock yourselves out.

I'm sure I'll manage either way.

What, and miss out on all the manufactured racist, hyper-xenophobic, misplaced jingoism?

Look, a lot of crafty folks went through the trouble of whipping up this phony crisis, the least you can do is try to
seem interested.

Immigration is, of course, an important issue. Is it as important as what's happening in Iraq or Afghanistan?

Not even close.

Iraq and Afghanistan could both go totally in the tank, and it wouldn't be as harmful to our country's long-term health as continuing to allow a stream of illegal wetties to invade us is.


my .02

poptart wrote:Iraq and Afghanistan could both go totally in the tank, and it wouldn't be as harmful to our country's long-term health as continuing to allow a stream of illegal wetties to invade us is.


my .02

Bingo. Those that don't care are those that either haven't been affected by it or haven't seen its effects. Our southern cities are being ghettoized in many areas. Ever been south of Tijuana and seen the slum where people have huts built out of old tires and mud? *I* don't want my country looking like that.

There's nothing wrong with orderly, legal immigration. But unchecked immigration of unskilled, under-educated people and criminals does nothing but drag us down.

For those of you who think this is a problem now, or even if you don't, wait until you see what the USA is like 20 years from now. Half of the country will be cities and suburbs and the rest will be just flat out ghetto trash. Personally, I don't want to see that happen.

Of course I don't want to see that happen...but do you know how much money we spend every day on policing Iraq? Let's keep it simple and say that the cost is staggering. It staggers everything we try to do in this country.

Now - having said that, the debate on whether we need to police Iraq or not is a separate issue. It's just that drum-beating on immigration seems a little silly in the face of that.

It's just that it's a problem that needs to be solved now and can be solved now, whereas Iraq is still very much in flux.

I lived in Houston for 12 yrs.
It went further into the can year-by-year.

Then when 'Mayor' White welcomed in 'Nawlin's finest, .... well, the city may as well be nuked.
What a fucking hell-hole it is now.
Visited there in February, and parts that used to be pretty decent are now ghettxico.

I might move to Montana when I come back from Korea.
At the current rate of illegal wettie invasion, I ought to be good in Montana for 4 or 5 yrs before I have to move to Greenland.

Immigration is also very much in flux.

There are a lot of employers that rely on illegals...folks that are squirming in their seats when folks like Tancredo get up on the soapbox. Focusing on the immigrants themselves is not going to get us anywhere.

Hell, just the other day they raided a factory here in western PA that employed 20 some illegals, and also they picked up 6 guys who were subcontracting for Verizon.

Don't forget, you're talking to a Pittsburgher. 75-100 years ago, this place was teeming with illegal immigrants. They were brought here as cheap labor - and over the course of time, they were able to participate meaningfully in the economy, and thousands and thousands of folks in this area today are descended from them. Sure, ghettos result when immigrants are kept to the margins of society...but if they are given a chance to better themselves and build communities, they'll end up assets to the larger community. That's the way it always has been in America.

Here's a good article about the immigration issue from the WPA perspective:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07154/791203-85.stm

People who don't live in border states just don't understand...yet. The problem isn't "illegals" persay, it's the criminal element that comes with it as well as the poor, uneducated masses who come here with no intention of becoming Americans. They (those that refuse to assimilate) transform our cities into little Tijuanas and it's sad to see areas like Santa Ana, CA, which were nice suburban cities 20 years ago, be reduced to a punchline.

Additionally, for those of us with kids in school, the teachers have to go over topics time and again, speak at a 3rd grade level to junior high kids and spend a large percentage of their time helping these kids who barely know english because their parents only speak spanish at home. They're dumbing down our kids.

Add to that the emergency rooms that are loaded with hispanics seeking free healthcare every time they get the flu and you've got a big fucking problem.

I get that right now it's not YOUR problem, but just wait. This is a plague that's gradually moving north and the polticians have no real desire to stop it.

OCmike wrote: Ever been south of Tijuana and seen the slum where people have huts built out of old tires and mud?

"You fancy city types with your modern conveniences...bahhh..."

Sincerely, W. Virginia

mvscal wrote: We get nothing out of that deal.

sure we do, we get skyrocketing health care costs so we can foot the bill for all of the illegals that show up at the hospital to get a fucking hangnail removed.....

you're just not seeing the bigger picture here mvs.....

With all due respect, PSUFan...


STFU. You know not of what you speak.

I live in a semi-border state(shares a border with california...i think there's now more mexicans in california than there is in mexico, so it kinda counts), and...


You just don't know what's up.

I mean, until you become a parent resident of a beaner-destination state, you just wouldn't understand.

English is just about to become the secondary language where I live. Crime is becoming rampant, and if you take a browse through the county court records, names you'd associate with Euro-based culture represent such a small percentage as compared to the Jose Hernandezes it's shocking.

The social safety nets, implimented with the best of intentions, are on the verge of collapse.

I could Dinsdale this thread to internet-crashing proportions listing all of the problems, and I'd be hard pressed to list any advantages.

There's always been migrant workers around here, in fairly large numbers. But since the corporate traitors decided to open the borders completely, in the last ten years or so, particularly the last 5, it's unbelievable what's happebed...and it's not in a good way.


My parents moved here over 40 years ago. My Dad had worked lined up(he was ASKED). My family spoke English. But here's a part that's quite indicative of just how traitorous the powers that be are, quite at odds with the other mantra of keeping the balance of wealth in the hands of coroporations...

15 years before my Dad moved here, as a young man, he had a job working in oil fields in Iran. 15 years before. He left as the revolution was unfolding, and it became a damn fine time for Westerners to leave.

When it came time to move to the USA, he had to wait an extra 6 months for the US Government to do backgroud checks, for fear he might be involved with terrorism.

In 1966. And he was an English whiteboy.

1966.


So, in this age of obsessive anti-terrorism rhetoric, what safety net is in place to ensure all of these people walking over the border aren't doing so with insidious intent? How difficult would it be for an Islamic Fundy to take on a false mexican identity, and walk across the border?


You are getting WORKED by the traitors in power. Terrorism wasn't much of an issue in 1966, but the government sure did their due dilligence in making sure it didn't become a problem. Now, we're told to open our wallets without question to prevent terrorism, and yet the biggest security hole in this nation's history is not only not being adressed, it's being encouraged...there is that.


You are being scammed, people. Wakey wakey.

Dinsdale wrote:I'd be hard pressed to list any advantages.

I'll give you one advantage....

if you own an older (circa 1972-1975) Monte Carlo, Grand Prix, or Cordoba you'll have no trouble selling it.....

If you have a set of $20 chrome wheel covers on an 85 Sentra, you're sitting on a gold mine.

Dinsdale wrote:If you have a set of $20 chrome wheel covers on an 85 Sentra, you're a future carjacking statistic.

FTFY

OCmike wrote:

poptart wrote:Iraq and Afghanistan could both go totally in the tank, and it wouldn't be as harmful to our country's long-term health as continuing to allow a stream of illegal wetties to invade us is.

my .02

Bingo. Those that don't care are those that either haven't been affected by it or haven't seen its effects. Our southern cities are being ghettoized in many areas. Ever been south of Tijuana and seen the slum where people have huts built out of old tires and mud? *I* don't want my country looking like that.

*They* don't want their country looking like that either. That's why they're moving.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Capitalism is stronger than your desire to stop illegals. If you want it to stop, then give people a reason to stay in Mexico.

BSmack wrote:give people a reason to stay in Mexico.

Phalanx guns across the border would be a pretty compelling reason, methinks.

And you know what they say about me and mvscal agreeing on something...

Being a Houstonian all of my 29 years on this rock, I have to rack tart's take on the subject. Houston (although they have done their best to restore downtown and The Heights area) has putrid wastelands just filled with illegals in various areas. Its awful. When I was working downtown, I lived in an area where the population was about 97% hispanic and I was the only whitey that lived on my street. MS-13 was just a few doors down and hung out every weekend on the street with their '84 primered Ford thhunderbirds with the spinners parked in the yard. It was also typical to see this one bad ass Lincoln Navigator tricked out to max with a 20 year old kid rollin' down the streets probably lookin' to make his next score or deal.

Dins is right, unless you live in a border state you possibly couldn't understand what hell hole "communities" these hispanics have created in our cities.

I wouldn't go so far as to say I have no care about illegal immigration one way or the other, but it doesn't affect my day-to-day life all that greatly.

I suppose you could argue that Iraq and Afghanistan don't, either, but there's one huge difference between the two: Iraq and Afghanistan both have the potential to affect my life is a significant manner. I don't think illegal immigration does.

As a former Navy Officer, depending on what story you believe, I could still be on IRR. That means that they could call me up at any time, although given my age and the amount of time I've been separated from the Navy (17 years as of next month), I don't think I'd be a terribly desirable candidate. But if they need warm bodies . . .

I also have a stepdaughter who is a high-school graduate and who has floundered a bit since high school. She has a full-time job, for now, but she also has a history of growing disenchanted with any job she gets in relatively short order. Who knows if the military will try to recruit her later, or if she'll have interest? And given that Iraq shows no signs of ending, at least anytime soon, even my younger kids could be at risk down the road.

The truth is that there just aren't a lot of illegal immigrants where I live. I won't go so far as to say that there are none, especially given that agriculture is the largest industry in the county where I live. But day-to-day you almost never see anyone of Mexican descent. Nor would I jump to the conclusion that all Mexicans are here illegally. And in these parts, "Hispanic" usually means Puerto Rican, not Mexican.

I have a hard time working up righteous indignation over individuals who are trying to feed their families. And I have no doubt that some (not all, but definitely some) of the anti-immigration backlash is being fueled by racist and xenophobic sentiments.

OTOH, illegal immigrants are a wage depressant. And that tends to affect me, not directly but certainly indirectly. It's not like I'm in danger of losing my job to an illegal immigrant. But then again, I choose to represent real people rather than banks, corporations, insurance companies or the government. If there is a factor working to depress wages, as illegal immigration does, it makes it harder for someone to afford a lawyer even if they need one.

As for terrorism, I have to disagree with Dins' insinuations at least in part. I think illegal immigration and terrorism, while both part and parcel of the larger immigration/border security issue, are apples and oranges when it comes down to it. Illegal immigration focuses strictly on the southern border. And most illegal immigrants are merely looking to put food on their families (Bushism used on purpose). They aren't terrorists or terrorist sympathizers. By contrast, if al-Qaeda is looking to cross the border illegally, at least imho, they're more likely to go through the northern border, which is longer and, if anything, even more porous than the southern border.

In sum, I'm concededly pretty much all over the map on illegal immigration. Perhaps that's based on the adage that "all politics is local," and this isn't an issue that has a huge effect locally. I'm much more focused on Iraq and Afganistan, and I agree with PSU's conclusions in that regard.

mvscal wrote:

Terry in Crapchester wrote:OTOH, illegal immigrants are a wage depressant.

Which most certainly will have a negative effect the underachieving dumbass your wife spawned far more so than military service which would actually probably do her some good.

English, please?

Military service won't do her much good if she's coming home from Iraq in a bodybag. Or she needs psychiatric care for PTSD. Or if she loses a limb, then your boys make her come back every month to make sure she hasn't grown another back.

Whatever happened to being proud of men and women who join the military and die in service of their country? If my son chose to join the military and were killed in combat I would be sad no doubt, but I would also be terribly proud. Most parents these days don't want their kids joining because they might get killed. What if WW2 soldiers parents had the mentality of parents today? It used to be an honor to have your child serve his country. Now parents say "Not my child"!!

Short answer - WW2 was an entirely different type of conflict.

Long answer later.

Terry in Crapchester wrote: I have a hard time working up righteous indignation over individuals who are trying to feed their families.

Nor do I, but the problem isn't that simple. The problem is that they're bringing their uneducated families HERE and dragging down our infrastructure, overloading our highways and filling up our emergency rooms with cases of the sniffles because they have no insurance. While I don't begrudge someone trying to make a better life for themselves or their family, I *do* begrudge them that when it's at the expense of me, my quality of life and that of *my* family.

And I have no doubt that some (not all, but definitely some) of the anti-immigration backlash is being fueled by racist and xenophobic sentiments.

I'm so sick of this retarded argument that I want to throw up every time I read it. Are there people in this country who don't want mexicans here, purely because they're mexicans? Sure. But how many of them are voters and how many of them bother to argue or even have the mental capacity to argue political topics? News flash: Those that are against this influx of indigents have that position because it's adversely affecting this country.

BTW, my wife is half mexican and both she and her family feel the same way about this that I do. Know why? They came here legally, learned english, went to school and became productive members of society. Ninety-nine percent of this new "batch" of immigrants wants nothing to do with any of that. They want to come up here and create Mexico north. Fuck them and fuck that.

Neely8 wrote:Whatever happened to being proud of men and women who join the military and die in service of their country? If my son chose to join the military and were killed in combat I would be sad no doubt, but I would also be terribly proud. Most parents these days don't want their kids joining because they might get killed. What if WW2 soldiers parents had the mentality of parents today? It used to be an honor to have your child serve his country. Now parents say "Not my child"!!

Iraq is WW2?

Wow.

Neely8 wrote: What if WW2 soldiers parents had the mentality of parents today?

Perhaps Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union would have cancelled each other out, leaving a whole lot more money and resources for America to share with it's citizens...

...oh yeah...I see what I just said...

My bad.

Martyred wrote:

Neely8 wrote:Whatever happened to being proud of men and women who join the military and die in service of their country? If my son chose to join the military and were killed in combat I would be sad no doubt, but I would also be terribly proud. Most parents these days don't want their kids joining because they might get killed. What if WW2 soldiers parents had the mentality of parents today? It used to be an honor to have your child serve his country. Now parents say "Not my child"!!

Iraq is WW2?

Wow.

Neely8 wrote: What if WW2 soldiers parents had the mentality of parents today?

Perhaps Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union would have cancelled each other out, leaving a whole lot more money and resources for America to share with it's citizens...

...oh yeah...I see what I just said...

My bad.

Iraq is a battlefield that our president called on the military to fight in. Actually Iraq is more tame then WW2. We have lost less people in 5 years in Iraq then in 1 day during WW2. About the same as the number of people who died in 1 day in NYC. This country needs to find it's set of balls again and strap them on.....

Neely8 wrote: This country needs to find it's set of balls again and strap them on.....

You realize that what's going on in Iraq is not a war but rather an occupation.
And a really bad one at that.

Every day you hear about a dozen or two Iraqis being blown up, reflects badly on your military and the Bush Administration in
general.

And spare me any infantile, 'scal-esque musings on a large scale slaughter of all Arabs, anywhere and everywhere.
If you want to continue the debate, we'll do it as adults.

So you would equate the nature of Verdun with the problems in the Pripet Marshes?

All these 'well we lost X number of men at Iwo Jima in five minutes, so in fact we're doing great!!' comparisons are just fucking retarded, I love it. It's an often heard justification and it's entirely irrelevant.

mvscal wrote:

Martyred wrote:You realize that what's going on in Iraq is not a war but rather an occupation.

I do realise that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. We are very clearly conducting counter-insurgency operations in the Iraq. That's war.

The term "insurgency" implies that there is an external threat to the peace.

So which is it? Either you can't secure Iraq's frontier, or the population you are occupying hates you so much, they're willing
to die to get rid of you.

What a farce. "War President" my ass.

BSmack wrote:

OCmike wrote:

poptart wrote:Iraq and Afghanistan could both go totally in the tank, and it wouldn't be as harmful to our country's long-term health as continuing to allow a stream of illegal wetties to invade us is.

my .02

Bingo. Those that don't care are those that either haven't been affected by it or haven't seen its effects. Our southern cities are being ghettoized in many areas. Ever been south of Tijuana and seen the slum where people have huts built out of old tires and mud? *I* don't want my country looking like that.

*They* don't want their country looking like that either. That's why they're moving.

Where do you dream up the bullshit you routinely post here?

If *they* don't want to live in a country that looks like hell, then why is it that everywhere they settle here in the U.S. turns out exactly that way in no time flat?

Neely8 wrote: Iraq is a battlefield that our president called on the military to fight in.

Correct.

Meaning that Congress never declared war on Iraq.


Meaning that any REAL American would flat out refuse to go to Iraq.


The troops who go willingly are supporting acts of traitorism against the United States.

Anyone who enlisted before the Iraq invasion had little choice. Anyone who enlisted since then has their head up their ass.

Dinsdale wrote:

Neely8 wrote: Iraq is a battlefield that our president called on the military to fight in.

Correct.

Meaning that Congress never declared war on Iraq.


Meaning that any REAL American would flat out refuse to go to Iraq.


The troops who go willingly are supporting acts of traitorism against the United States.

Anyone who enlisted before the Iraq invasion had little choice. Anyone who enlisted since then has their head up their ass.

I must have missed where the House and Senate both voted to authorize the use of force in Iraq/Afghanistan? I could have sworn they did......even the dumbocrats...

Martyred wrote:
Perhaps Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union would have cancelled each other out, leaving a whole lot more money and resources for America to share with it's citizens...

...oh yeah...I see what I just said...

My bad.

Hitler & Stalin were allies for most of the war.

Neely8 wrote: I must have missed where the House and Senate both voted to authorize the use of force in Iraq/Afghanistan? I could have sworn they did......even the dumbocrats...

No. They voted to pass the buck to the president...which is not proivided for under the Constitution of the USA.

Iraq didn't attack the US. Therefore, the CiC had no authority to instigate a police action.

The Constitution grants certain powers to the government. One of those is that the president is CiC of the military "when called into the actual Service of the United States."

Nowhere in the Constitution does it say "Congress can grant the power to declare war to the president, so congressional members can attempt to salvage their political careers should public opinion turn against the war."


Congress declares war. Period. Show me the line in the Constitution that says otherwise...go ahead. Show me the line that says "Congress may delegate authority to declare war to the president"...go ahead and show me that part.


Damn, they keep saying Iraq needs to draft a constitution -- screw that, let's just give them ours...we sure the fuck ain't using it.


Do as we say, Iraq, not as we do.

Absolutely unconstitutional, and everyone in Congress should be reprimanded.

I notice you didn't cite the part of the Constitution that authorizes Congress to delegate the power of war declaration to the president.

But you don't need to explain yourself...you didn't cite that part of the Constitution because it doesn't exist.

But hey, what's a little checks and balances and that pesky old Constitution when there's war profiteering to be done, right?


That resolution doesn't make a war declaration. Iraq didn't attack the USA.


The invasion of Iraq was illegal under the laws of the USA...period.

But accountability is not a part of our government, nor is constitutionality... and no one seems to give a shit.

If you don't demand better, you don't get better. Enjoy your spoils.


Today, Articles 1 and 2...tomorrow? Who knows...?

Who cares? It's all about "your safety," right?

OCmike wrote:The problem is that they're bringing their uneducated families HERE and dragging down our infrastructure, overloading our highways and filling up our emergency rooms with cases of the sniffles because they have no insurance. While I don't begrudge someone trying to make a better life for themselves or their family, I *do* begrudge them that when it's at the expense of me, my quality of life and that of *my* family.

Hey this argument sounds familiar.

Sincerely,

The Irish.
The Italians.
The Jews.
The Chinese.


As to Houston and "every other place" being "ghettoized" by Hispanics, you idiots should try visiting San Antonio sometime. The last time I checked, it's been 60-65 percent Hispanic for at least 4 decades now, if not longer. It's like every other large city ... has some shitty areas and some really nice areas.

This year, Oklahoma passed one of the toughest state illegal immigrant laws in the country. It calls for fines for employers who employ illegal immigrants, forces local police departments to "make a reasonable effort" to determine if people they arrest are legal, and other measures. The law doesn't even take effect until November, but the effects are already being felt here with people losing a lot of business in mostly Hispanic neighborhoods. Many of the business owners are saying they're probably going to pick up go to another state. Fantastic way to build the economy, not to mention the image of Oklahoma -- as if both already didn't need help already. Idiots.

And the other day, the cops here stopped some guy with an accent. He was a LEGAL resident but didn't have his green card on him. The guy spent a fucking week in jail with his gf literally outside showing the cops his green card, but it took ICE a week to pull their heads out of their asses and let the guy out of jail. ICE, btw, is probably the most fucked up, bureaucratic absolute joke of an "agency" this side of the post office. Jesus, those morons make the DMV seem like a model of efficiency. And now, the cops here and everywhere else in this state will have to work with them. Great. Just great. Starting this fall, I'm sure glad my cops will be spending more hours on paperwork and dealing with incompetent fucktards than patrolling the streets. Real nice. I'm sure this is going to lead to splendid, cooperative relationship with police and the Hispanic communities. But hey, at least Jose and Maria will finally get what's coming to them for not having the right paperwork.

RadioFan wrote:

OCmike wrote:The problem is that they're bringing their uneducated families HERE and dragging down our infrastructure, overloading our highways and filling up our emergency rooms with cases of the sniffles because they have no insurance. While I don't begrudge someone trying to make a better life for themselves or their family, I *do* begrudge them that when it's at the expense of me, my quality of life and that of *my* family.

Hey this argument sounds familiar.

Sincerely,

The Irish.
The Italians.
The Jews.
The Chinese.

Those people didn't break into the country.
Also, the RATE at which they came into the country was a piss-dribble compared to the rate southern ILLEGALs are flooding in.

Finally, those groups, for the most part, WANTED to assimilate to American society.
The illegal wetties, for the most part, don't see it that way at all.

OCmike wrote:

Terry in Crapchester wrote: I have a hard time working up righteous indignation over individuals who are trying to feed their families.

Nor do I, but the problem isn't that simple.

No duh. I addressed some of the arguments on the other side in the remainder of my post.

And I have no doubt that some (not all, but definitely some) of the anti-immigration backlash is being fueled by racist and xenophobic sentiments.

I'm so sick of this retarded argument that I want to throw up every time I read it.

Note that I didn't say that all of the anti-immigration backlash was based on racist and xenophobic arguments. I merely said that some of it is. From the remainder of your post, it sounds as though we are in agreement on that point.

As for the racist/xenophobes not being voters, don't be so sure about that. There are many people who don't have the mental capacity to argue political topics, but vote anyway.