T1B

I think the last time, before today, that I had opened up an OCMike Humpday challenge thread was a couple years ago. Someone asked a question, like 'Find me the head of Victor Garcia' and whoever posted the appropriate picture first 'won' and was supposed to provide the next picture. Basically a slightly more complex treasure hunt than the usual 'say something about the person above you/below you' stuff that was also around in those days. Except his dealt with sports. I don't know sports, so I didn't open those threads. There isn't a prize at the end, for me. It's for those who like their sports trivia, and that's cool.

Today I open it, it's still all sports, all the time, with some personal smack tossed in... except I see TWIS needs to change his .signature. I don't mind him having it, it's just that it's old and inappropriate for him. For me, it was one of those fundamental questions of existence, like, how can one be a Catholic without ever observing any of the rites of Catholicism or believing in the tenets of Catholicism? It was around the time when that story had come out about the (jewish) contractor who had sold shoddy armor to the U.S. government at a premium... and then had turned around and hired 50 cent to play at his little girl with the grown up body's bat mitzvah, a bat mitzvah that went into the million dollar range. That dollar amount was offensive to me, 50 cent's presence offended me (like the piano player's, Herbie Hancock?, presence in Indecent Proposal offended me), but the religious identity of that contractor offended me most of all. It was bad enough to have an American cut the tendons of American soldiers for the sake of the almighty dollar; but for that American to also be Jewish stuck an arrow in the back of why America was in Iraq and Afghanistan in the first place. If America is going to trip over it's own dick for the sake of Israel, have the decency -- particularly if you're Jewish -- to provide America with decent armor while it goes down. But that was me. And that was what was really behind my asking about real jews, fake jews and rich jews.

It's offensive to me to claim a religion that you don't really give a fuck about. Kind of like the Kennedy's fake Catholicism. Except Catholicism has always been fake even when it was real, and is the 'we'll accept anything' ying to Jewishness 'god has some pretty specific damn rules' yang.

So anyway, I looked up the question 'real jew', and ignored those responses dealing with Mormons and Christian Identitiers (both of which are white superiority cults). The answers are strange to me, and are not satisfying to me.

http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=17900
What makes a 'real' Jew?
By Rebecca Suchov

After being alive for 16 years, I would think it would be easy to classify myself into a certain category, and that by now I would know what, who and why I am what I am. But as I grow older, it has become more complicated for me to label myself -- secular, religious, Jewish American Mexican, Mexican American Jew. This is probably a result of the fact that the older I get, the more in-depth I learn about my religion and the more I begin to formulate my own thoughts and opinions about it and about myself...... For example, I was a secular Jew because my mother told me that she was a secular Jew. I considered myself to be a Mexican American teenage girl, who happened to be Jewish, as well, because that was the way I was raised. We would celebrate Shabbat when it was convenient to, and would observe only the "famous" Jewish holidays -- Chanukah, Pesach, Yom Kippur, and Sukkot. I considered a Jew to be a person who knew about the Torah, kept kosher, celebrated Shabbat and who went to temple every Friday night -- and anyone who did not, was, in my eyes, not a "real" Jew. This consequently meant that I was not a "real" Jew. The thought of this not only made me hate the religion's standards -- which I myself had set -- but it caused me to feel very confused about myself. I wasn't sure which temple I liked, how to celebrate each holiday, and even how to eat.

Although we had Judaic studies every year, I felt unable to drift away from my parents' beliefs and create my own.

I was relieved to find that one of my friends, Tali, happened to be in Israel at the same time, on a separate school program. Tali, a girl I met at tennis camp, was one of the only people I knew who shared my beliefs -- we both agreed that it was not necessary to follow all of the rituals of the Jewish religion. It was not until we reconnected in Israel that I found out her father is an Orthodox rabbi who works at Chabad. This immediately made me wonder how a rabbi, an Orthodox rabbi, a "real" Jew, could raise a "fake" one. I asked Tali what she considered herself to be, and whether or not she felt comfortable with her decision of moving away from her family's opinions and creating her own. She answered that she respected her parents' beliefs but did not completely agree with what they stood for. When I asked her if she felt as Jewish as her father, she responded without any hesitation, "I am just as Jewish as my father and mother and you are just as Jewish as them as well." Hearing those words finally come out of someone's mouth besides my own was like lifting the world off my shoulders. From that point on I no longer felt uncomfortable with my beliefs, and I no longer felt out of place.

...Every day it became clearer to me that there was not one specific way to define a "real" Jew. By observing the amount of pride and devotion that all the Jewish Israelis felt toward their religion, I began to understand that simply believing in God and being proud of the fact that you are Jewish automatically makes you as Jewish as you can get. I was able to see on many different occasions the variety of Jews, and how I did not have to fit into any one of them in order to be Jewish. When our group went to the Kotel, for example, I was able to see ultra-Orthodox Jews, Conservative Jews, Modern Orthodox Jews, and Jews that don't fit into any of the categories praying toward the Wall, and every one of them accepts the other as a member of the Jewish faith.

If she was secular Jew because her mother was secular Jew, then what (and where) was her father? Did she really feel less Jewish because of how often or not her family attended temple, or because of her Mexicanness? Why couldn't an orthodox rabbi raise a non-Jew?

How can simply believing in God and being proud of belonging to a faith (without actually observing any of the beliefs or rites of that faith), mean that you are of that faith?

This was printed in the teen section of the Jewish Journal. Something is amiss here. Or am I the only one who feels it? A lot of that unease I feel has to do with what's written in the Bible itself. There are some very specific rules set down, and each time the rules were broken, Yahweh went Chernobyl on the Jewish people... at which point Yahweh pulled the guilt-ridden abusive husband act, and after lots of sacrifices and public atoning, everything was supposed to be copacetic between Yahweh and the Jews until the next time Jews thought being born into the faith without actually acting as the faith demands was good enough. The Bible is filled with example after example of what happens when Jews try to leave Yahweh while still enjoying the benefits of wearing his ring (so to speak).

That's what is beneath my discomfort. Beside the backstabbing of the Jewish contractor without loud religious and moral condemnation from fellow Jews. (I mention that, again, because of how Muslims across the spectrum are always taken to task for not raising their voices loudly enough for non-Muslims, against radical Muslims. Why are there different rules for Muslims, versus Jews?)

Is the covenant truly no longer in force?

Am I experiencing fear of the spiritual abusive Father, or jealousy? Another 'real jew' states:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f ... drelig.DTL
FINDING MY RELIGION
Philosopher Jacob Needleman asks in his latest book, 'Why Can't We Be Good?' (Pt. 2)
David Ian Miller

Monday, April 16, 2007

...

Were you raised in a particular religion?
I was raised Jewish, but I was pretty allergic to my religion as I was growing up. Now I see that aversion to religion is much more about the fact that our churches and synagogues, in my humble opinion, have lost contact with the real depth of their teachings. People try to do ethics without realizing that it needs to be connected to deep philosophical, metaphysical and spiritual experience. People are trying to figure out ethics with just their minds or their reactions. And as a result, everybody criticizes everything.


Do you still consider yourself Jewish?
Yes. I also just as deeply respect Christian tradition and Buddhist tradition. I've spent 45 years studying the inner meaning of these great religions, and believe me, they all converge. If I could be a Christian, I'd be just as happy as if I could be a real Jew.

What do you mean by that last statement?
It takes work to be a Christian. You have to choose it. And you can't choose it just once and forget about it. You have to choose it again and again, and it's an inner struggle. It's an inner struggle that the great mystics have put on paper.

Is that different from being a real Jew?
That's the same thing with being a real Jew. A real Jew is not just someone who goes to the synagogue and follows the diet and says the words, but the real Jew is someone inwardly Jewish.

...

So you can be a Jew without being circumcised, if you are a man, as long as you are 'inwardly jewish' -- whatever that means?

What does it mean to be 'inwardly' anything? I may have been raised Catholic and Southern Baptist; but it would be wrong for me to describe myself as either Catholic or Southern Baptist, with no qualifiers attached, because I do not observe either faith and do not live as either faith. Familiarity (for me) is not enough.

What is the true convenant? and if the covenant is not contained within the Bible, where is it?

mvscal wrote:Scroll wheel.....check.

Bingo. Once I hit "all of the questions in the HDC are about sports again" (11 of 20 are non-sports this week), my scroll wheel zipped on by the rest.

Somebody needs to get a job.

Roger has a 1/16th share of the covenant. Go ask him.

Let's not forget - we ban Jews around here. I expect you all to let me know if any surface.

Mikey wrote:Somebody needs to get a job.

I'm trying to be real, and you're trying to diss. Whatever Mikey.

fuck off, you race baiting n|gger.

I asked a question -- I asked several -- regarding faith.

If you have no faith, UCant, that's cool. But I am being serious. If you've never wondered about such things, yourself, that's also cool.

Risa wrote:

Mikey wrote:Somebody needs to get a job.

I'm trying to be real, and you're trying to diss. Whatever Mikey.

You asked a question. I made a suggestion. A real suggestion.

Don't diss me.

Why the hate, Mikey?

Risa wrote:Why the hate, Mikey?

I blame Bush.

Y2K wrote:

Risa wrote:Why the hate, Mikey?

I blame Bush.

So get a brazilian. Men are getting them, too.

http://www.dermadoctor.com/pages/newsletter265.asp

http://www.usatoday.com/life/columnist/ ... mill_x.htm

http://www.menessentials.com/oxid.php/s ... ng_joy.tpl

It's not just for metrosexuals anymore.

Rumplewife just got shorn. The asians who did it for her are calling her Mt. Baldy.

Risa,
I'm not ignoring you, ok I guess I knda am, but I'm not reading that tripe you posted.

You pretend to be interested, but you're really just trying to bait. You failed, but I'm sure you're used to that.

PSUFAN wrote:Rumplewife just got shorn. The asians who did it for her are calling her Mt. Baldy.

TWIS, I feel uncomfortable about you still wearing that .sig. Your mocking is fine. The ambivalence that led to me writing it in the first place is not, for me. You said, in the past, that you weren't a zionist, and being a jew should not be assumed by others to mean one is also a zionist. That's fine. You don't believe Christ is the messiah, he was just a dude. That's fine, too.

But claiming Jewishness without actually embracing the very things that set one apart -- in one's own holy books -- as being of the Chosen, as living in that Covenant with god stretching back thousands of years, that isn't fine to me. There has to be more than just 'I was born into it and am proud of being born into it, therefore I am it.' The Covenant doesn't exist anymore.

If 4000 years from now I claim to be a Jew, but worship as Scientologist or Mormon or Koreshite.. or even a Catholic, and ignore the Laws, am I really a Jew just because for 4000 years my family said 'we are jewish'?

Risa,
1) Don't claim to understand anything about me or my faith. You assume to much without having the knowledge to make such assumptions. If you are looking for a reason to hate, search for LTS-Condit-Frisco posts, you'll fit right in with the rest of the sheep in his flock.

2) If you feel uncomfortable about me "wearing" that sig, maybe you'll think twice before typing anything equally as idiotic. I'm an optimist, so I'm confident you'll fuck that up as well.

Risa/Annie/Ignorant Grandstander,

Go fuck yourself, you tedious, race-baiting cunt.

TVO isn't LTS RN?

One of my questions is: what makes a Jew? the young sophomore above seems to think that all it takes is pride in one's birth within one's heart and a belief in god. the writer above says two things which I can't personally find compatible with one another, given the old testament. He says: "It takes work to be a Christian. You have to choose it. And you can't choose it just once and forget about it. You have to choose it again and again, and it's an inner struggle. It's an inner struggle that the great mystics have put on paper. That's the same thing with being a real Jew. A real Jew is not just someone who goes to the synagogue and follows the diet and says the words, but the real Jew is someone inwardly Jewish. "

Is choosing to be a Jew (or a Christian, or whoever) ultimately only about choosing to have pride in one's birth and one's culture and one's heritage, after all? Am I a real Irishman if the only thing Irish about me is my last name?

Can I be a Jew without circumscision, if I am a man, because I tell myself that I am a Jew born of Jews?

Can I be a Muslim, and still eat pork and not pray towards Mecca 5 times a day?

Does God make mistakes in setting down covenants and commands?

My question comes from the fears instilled from a double Catholic and Southern Baptist spiritual upbringing.

Your sig makes me uncomfortable because you didn't take my question seriously,
yet there is still honor in having my name attached to your .signature. So I'd prefer
you didn't so continue to honor me even as you mock.

Risa wrote: Can I be a Jew without circumscision, if I am a man, because I tell myself that I am a Jew born of Jews?

No. Because if you were born from jews you would be circumscised.

My sig makes you uncomfortable because it is a reminder or your own ignorance and stupidity.

Mr. T, Paul says you don't have to be circumsized to be a Jew and of the Chosen. I guess it's like Catholics being anal about baptizing babies, versus some unnamed sect in the future claiming that baptizing is not necessary at any point in life to be received in the Kingdom of Heaven in spite of the example of John the Baptist.

But if my parents are Jewish, and I miss my bris for whatever reason, I am still a Jew because my parents are Jewish, right? And my children will be Jews because my parents are Jews and I consider myself a Jew. The covenant doesn't matter. Birth does and internal re-affirmation does. That's what I'm having trouble with.

TWIS, I don't like seeing my name honored. Please change it.

Risa wrote:But if my parents are Jewish, and I miss my bris for whatever reason,

There is no reason to miss your bris, it can be delayed by Shabbat (1-day) or illness (until the baby is healthy enough), but not ignored or missed. End of story.

Risa wrote:TWIS, I don't like seeing my name honored. Please change it.

Good thing I'm not honoring your name. If it bothers you that much ... I won't change it.

mvscal wrote:

Risa wrote:Mr. T, Paul says you don't have to be circumsized to be a Jew and of the Chosen.

Paul said you didn't have to circumsized to be a Christian, you fucking tard.

Christians didn't exist yet, you stupid fuck. Jesus was still a jew. The Apostles were still Jews. Paul was talking about how non-gentiles could still get into the Kingdom of Heaven without giving up that little flap of skin that makes sex feel sooo much better to gentiles, and dicks appear in a perpetual state of arousal for jews.

TWIS, don't be spiteful. If Jewishness is something that can be carried within one's heart and through one's birthright and through the internal struggle, what does it matter whether you still have that flap of skin or if you don't? You eat pork, right? Are you cut off from god and Jewishness because pork has passed your lips? So why not uncircumsized Jews.

Except I think it isn't enough to 'carry it within one's heart'. There are some things you have to do, because it's part of the covenant. Birthright is not enough. Thinking happy shiney thoughts is not enough. Paying lip service to ritual is not enough. Stealing money from Indians to build schools in Israel is not enough. Rich jews -- particularly rich american jews -- maybe ain't jews. They have the birthright, but they spit upon the covenant.

Who the fuck are you to pass judgement on other peoples "Jewishness?" You keep making these broad assumptions about people you know nothing about and you think it's OK. God forbid anyone made a similar assumption about blacks, you'd be calling for their head. Get over your ignorant, self absorbed obsession and drop it.

You obviously don't understand anything about being Jewish if you pick a bris as your topic of distortion. The bris is #2 on the list of ritual importance next to Shabbat.

Is “Shabbat” Yiddish for “Preparation of the Income Statement”?

TIA

Clueless in New Mexico

Shabbat

Pray for that one too.

Shabbat...

I can remember trudging around Jerusalem with my group in the hot sun. Small little alleyways of cobblestones, small little storefronts, Orthodox little kids walking hand and hand back to their school room, and me carrying the backpack stuffed with digital camera's, purses, water bottles etc. for my group. The old bitches had caved and couldn't carry another parcel. So old Luth volunteered to carry the stuff for the day.

A nice gesture, but now I'm one tired 9 toed American. We left the mini bus and I went on a bead toward the Jerusalem hotel bar we were staying at.

The guy in the suit came from behind the bar and said, "Shalom or Whaddup' ugly American (forgot which one), what can I get for you?" I was slumped in my chair, and my backpack was at my feet with 1.2 tons of fat fucking tourist gear in it. I said, "I want a six pack of any type of beer you got and I want it right on this here table."

"We don't sell beer, it is Shabbat."

WTF?

Something to do with leavening or something. He suggested some wine. "Fine," I said, "Bring me a barrel.'

Over there, they are serious about all this stuff. Shabbat comes and the town shuts half the way up. You got to prepare for this...hit the liquor stores, bread stores or whatever. Supposedly you can buy beer over in the Arab quarter but you and I know that I was still tired from running from the plastic explosives or whatever was in Rahib's laptop at the Allenby crossing. I run once per trip, and I was done.

I did have one of those shawarma things that resemble a gyro sandwich in the Arab quarter. I asked for a beer with it and the guy looked at me like I was Ariel Sharon who had suddenly recovered from his coma.

Rip City

If they were conducting "business" then they weren't really observing Shabbat, were you there during Passover (based on the leavening comment)? Ahhhh mystery meat in pita, loved that shit, good memories.

So I, gentile that I am , desire to purchase and consume a beer on Shabbat...I can't?

Why exactly did you visit this place again, Luth?

It's OK to consume, just not to purchase. You need to have your shit together before sundown Friday. Besides, there is a commonly used loophole that is used to keep businesses open during Shabbat. Non-Jewish owned business will remain open as well. Sometimes you just have to look around.

Some of the hotels that catered to non Jewish travelers got some type of approval, from who, I dunno. They had a large Shabbat dinner that night that some of my traveling partners participated in. Several of the couples were not Jewish, but they wanted to see what happens. One couple from New Mexico said the dinner lasted for a long time...they ate a lot of food and finally left early after four hours.

I'm not Jewish either. I didn't really visit to "understand" the Religion and or said practice. I travel to see past history, architecture, people, the way of life, and the history of the country. Israel was indeed less as enjoyable as say, China, Japan, or the Cul de Smack. In Israel, I got pretty tired of seeing "ruins." After you've seen your 6th ruins, of white rock with no roofs, you've pretty much seen them all. I wanted to spend more time in Tel Aviv, and have a more thorough introduction in where some of the first buildings were constructed, the first houses etc. I wanted to see Rabin square, see where he was assassinated, and what type of monument they have for him.

I'm currently researching places for my next journey. For instance, Vietnam, Ireland, Russia and Australia all are possibilities. Two of those places are non English speaking (for the most part), and I want to see where some of the tour companies go and what type of tour it is. I can already see that many of the tours to Vietnam involve going to about 1,245,654 temples. I'm still looking.

Rip City

Australia!

You're welcome.

On page 9 Donin wrote:This sense of kinship felt by the Jewish people may be more of a "mystical" experience than a rationally definable one. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why the Jews have never quite been able to fit into the convenient categories used by historians or sociologists to define nations, races, religions, and other social groupings. Except for the obvious fact that the Jews do not constitute a race (for race is a biological designation), the Jews are not just a religious faith, even though they are that; and they are not just a nation, though they are that too, according to definitions of the term "nation." The problem is usually resolved by using the term "people" instead of either "faith" or "nation."

This difficulty in categorizing the Jewish people may well be part of their uniqueness. It is a uniqueness which according to the believer was given its permanent stamp by the Divine command, "You shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation" (Exodus 19:6).

Just one lil quote from many, many books on the subject.

TWIS, I apologize in advance if the following is any kind of distortion:

Risa,
The Jewish lit I've examined has a lot going on of course, but one major theme involving "being Jewish" is all about the journey of self and group; that the flow of progress is all process all the time and the role of the Tradition for individuals and community is to give a sense of ultimate meaning, sanctity, to whole lives writ large or the "everyday." Holidays are communal milestones and each individual has milestones as well marking progress on the way. "Being a Jew" is actually something that a Jew meditates upon in some circumstances and that goes inextricably hand in hand with a logical companion: meditating upon what it means to "be Human." Questioning the whys and wherefores of all the existential matters are part of the Tradition and is an integral part of the process and the ever important emphasis on learning. To 'wrestle' (look up the derivation of the word "Israel") with what is important cannot be stressed enough in their Tradition because rote memorization won't cut it: thoroughgoing exegesis must be mastered by its adherents so that the core of the Tradition may have the kind of flexibility needed to remain intact.



Here is a gateway where other seekers have gone.





velocet

You know, I did glance at the WWII battlefield tours that are out there. Visit all the involved area's around D Day and such. Beaches, little nearby towns, cemeteries and such. They offer a similar war themed tour to Vietnam too. I could take mvscal along with me and he could show me where he was. Mace could maybe come along too and show us where his son fought. Things like that.

I'm not the type to go to Disney world, England, Paris (fucccck), or Zambia. My buddy wants me to do a Safari with him and I turned him down. Hordes and hordes of beggars at all the stops/safari viewings etc. would drive me nuts. I didn't even like it in China when on the second day of the Yangtze boat trip we stopped in some side-hill shit hole town. We get off the boat and there is a guy sitting there just like that old Irie Lagos picture of him crippled and unable to walk. Guy had a porcelain cup, and a pair of piss stained pants. No thanks.

You ever read the travel blogs over at travelblog.org ? There was this one huge blog for this group of about four guys who trekked from England through just about everywhere. They were in France, Amsterdam, Russia and ended up in Vietnam. Wasn't a bad blog until they started bad mouthing the good old USA all over the place. How they'd tell different proprietors that they were British and not American. They'd laugh and go on and on. Kind of like that asshole Frenchie who accosted me in Beijing. Something about the ugly Americans etc. and I got in his face and said, "Why don't you take your fucking unwashed self and your rusted out teeth and get out of my face."

Traveling is fun.

Rip City

This is really simple folks... unless you have nothing better to do in your cubicles.

Don't feed the naygro. Let it die.

Atomic Punk wrote:Let it die.

Haven't you seen Predator? It's not that simple.

Risa wrote:Does God make mistakes?

I haven't read Through the Looking Glass. I got nothing. Actually, I do. In the Potter books, there is a device called the Mirror of Erisia, if I've spelled that correctly. You can see whatever you want within it, but what you see and what others see will be different. If you stare at it too long you'll waste away looking at what you want to see and not what is really there. The only way to escape it is if someone covers the mirror. So I guess that still means I got nothing.

Velo, you still sound dangerously close to a Stormfront 'awakened', but I have pulled up your link to that book and have bookmarked it.

Stormfront? Well it is a smackboard and we have at it in our own ways, but if you wanna run with a delusional smack style, then don't be disappointed when they're not laughing with you.

Anyway just keep in mind that for us to ask Jews "who is Jewish?" and "What does it mean to be Jewish?" and the like isn't very fair or productive since their Tradition in certain ways compels its members to confront that question themselves; oftentimes of themselves.



velocet