T1B

Posted: **Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:23 pm**

Now, Shilling is a big mouth, and he may even have a point here, but, if this was to be the case, what's next? Have the roiders return gold glove awards? Batting championships? have their records erased?

Other sports (in particular Track&Field and cycling) Have done exactly that. Marion Jones is no longer in the record books, nor was she allowed to keep her prior wins.

So how far should Baseball go, if they do anything at all?

I don't think they could succeed at changing anything, or even asterisking anything, because there are too many unknowns, and too many players who did it and got away with it. They should punish future offenses, though, or else it will not stop. They'll just get new drugs.

Schilling to Rocket: Give back Cy Youngs

By JIMMY GOLEN, AP Sports Writer Thu Dec 20, 7:41 AM ET

BOSTON - Boston Red Sox pitcher Curt Schilling called on Roger Clemens to give up the four Cy Young Awards he's won since 1997 if he can't clear his name from allegations that he used steroids to prolong and enhance his career.
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"If he doesn't do that then there aren't many options as a fan for me other than to believe his career 192 wins and three Cy Youngs he won prior to 1997 were the end," Schilling wrote Wednesday in his blog, 38pitches.com. "From that point on the numbers were attained through using (performance-enhancing drugs). Just like I stated about Jose (Canseco), if that is the case with Roger, the four Cy Youngs should go to the rightful winners, and the numbers should go away if he cannot refute the accusations."

Schilling noted in the 3,200-word posting that he was a fan of the seven-time Cy Young Award winner who owed much of his success to a stern talking-to he received from Clemens when Schilling was a young pitching prospect.

"His `undressing' of me and lecture were a major turning point," Schilling said. "I've always respected his career accomplishments and regarded him as the greatest pitcher to ever play the game."

But, having called on Canseco to give up his 1988 AL MVP award, and noting also the unrefuted evidence against Barry Bonds, Schilling acknowledged he could not avoid questioning Clemens' accomplishments as well.

"Can you separate what Barry is accused of from what Roger is accused of?" Schilling said. "If ... both of these men end up being caught, what does that say about this game, us as athletes and the future of the sport and our place in it? The greatest pitcher and greatest hitter of all time are currently both being implicated, one is being prosecuted, for events surrounding and involving the use of performance enhancing drugs. That (stinks). ... The sport needs fixing."

Clemens was the biggest name in the report by former Senate Majority Leader George Mitchell that detailed the widespread use of performance-enhancing drugs in baseball. Clemens has denied using performance-enhancing substances.

The Rocket's last four Cy Young Awards came in 1997, 1998, 2001 and 2004. Many of the allegations against Clemens in the Mitchell Report came from former trainer Brian McNamee, though none pertain to 1997 or 2004. Mitchell wrote McNamee said he injected Clemens with steroids in 1998 while with the Toronto Blue Jays, and steroids and human growth hormone in 2000 and 2001, while with the New York Yankees.

Schilling commended those who've apologized for using performance-enhancing drugs, and called on everyone accused to prove their innocence or apologize for their mistakes.

"The world is full of good to great people that have made mistakes of this magnitude or worse," Schilling wrote. "These guys made mistakes, and I do mean mistakes. They didn't accidentally do this, this was a conscious decision with far reaching implications and they should be held accountable."

While calling Canseco's "entire career, all of it, is a sham" and saying "he was never in his life a major league player," Schilling also acknowledged that many of Canseco's claims about other steroid users have been corroborated.

"He has broken the flood gates on a topic that went unspoken on for far too long," Schilling said.

The runners-up in Clemens' last four Cy Young-winning years were Randy Johnson (1997 and 2004), Pedro Martinez (1998) and Mark Mulder (2001).

Schilling was among those who testified in March 2005 to a U.S. House committee investigating steroids, along with Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa and Rafael Palmeiro. The same committee has scheduled hearings for Jan. 15.

Clemens has not been asked to attend, though it's possible that the committee could decide to ask Clemens or other players to appear that day — or at a future hearing, if there is one.

Posted: **Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:35 pm**

I wonder what kind of shots Shilling took to get himself ready to pitch that ALCS game against the Yankees.

I'd also like to know which "clean" player Shilling thinks should receive Clemens' awards. I mean there's like so many of them out there.

Posted: **Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:46 pm**

There are 750 active MLB players, the mitchell report fingers what - 89?

and that's without really talking to anyone who knows, or who was willing to tell.

I'd put steroid use as high as 40-50% easy.

Posted: **Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:51 pm**

Mister Bushice wrote:There are 750 active MLB players, the mitchell report fingers what - 89?

and that's without really talking to anyone who knows, or who was willing to tell.

I'd put steroid use as high as 40-50% easy.

You may be right, but I have a feeling that there might be a larger percentage who think that the long term physical risk is not worth it.

Posted: **Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:52 pm**

Mister Bushice wrote:There are 750 active MLB players, the mitchell report fingers what - 89?

and that's without really talking to anyone who knows, or who was willing to tell.

I'd put steroid use as high as 40-50% easy.

Right now I'm operating under the assumption that every player was using some kind of performance enhancer. And you know what? I don't fucking care.

Posted: **Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:05 pm**

It’s just too bad we don’t have a baseball forum. For the three people that do care.

Posted: **Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:13 pm**

Oh come on. It's fun to see baseball take big hits like this. They've fucked themselves up good. None of their records from the last decade have any real meaning, especially the biggies like the Home Run records.

I love to see this shit. Il look forward to see bonds get what's coming to him. I thought it was hilarious that HR ball #756 has an asterisk burned into it, and STILL the HOF accepted it. I hope Bonds follows thru on his threat not to show up at his induction if they keep that ball.

Posted: **Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:16 pm**

Someone should ask Shrill if we should ripping awards & records from all those players who were taking speed when they played.

Posted: **Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:26 pm**

mvscal wrote:
Mister Bushice wrote:There are 750 active MLB players, the mitchell report fingers what - 89?

and that's without really talking to anyone who knows, or who was willing to tell.

I'd put steroid use as high as 40-50% easy.
And you base that off of a report that doesn't have a shred of credibility?

It's credibility is a non issue.

It is out there and people are reading and talking about it and believing it.

Hell, our Dumbass president believes it. There will be negative fall out from it no matter what the credibility level is.

Posted: **Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:36 pm**

You don't really believe that's true, do you?

I guess you haven't been reading KCPauls posts, not including the ones he stole, of course.

Posted: **Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:00 pm**

KC Paul was run from here....you clearly didn't get the memo.

Posted: **Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:11 pm**

You were recycled, like garbage.

Posted: **Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:44 pm**

Nice sig, KFC Paul. I see you’re still just as stupid as ever.

Posted: **Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:18 pm**

You have a similiar sig Goobs, which CLEARLY would make you just as "stupid".

Watching you repeatedly KYOA never gets old.

Posted: **Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:25 pm**

RevLimiter wrote:KC Paul was run from here....you clearly didn't get the memo.

Are you talking about yourself in the 3rd person?

Jimmy's got a backer.......Eggs Benedict Arnold, you are a dumbfuck!

Posted: **Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:36 pm**

mvscal wrote: And you base that off of a report that doesn't have a shred of credibility?

If a similarly ratted report was suggesting, say, an actual link between Iraq and 9-11, you would be standing by it, spitting nasty slurs at anyone who attempted to question it. That is, being a card carrying Rove Monkey pretty much eliminates you from any objective criticisms.

The idea that Clemens' personal trainer was under such legal pressure that he would concoct such an elaborate and devastating smear attack upon the greatest pitcher of the modern era is utterly ludicrous. Of course proving it is difficult. Watch as Bonds strolls. But like Barroid, Clemens has earned his all-time Asterisk.

I'll kill you..I'll fucking kill you, you ('AAAAHHHAHHHAHHHHHH')...

Posted: **Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:09 pm**

Well, there were many such "reports"--by Cheney tools like Chalabi and "Curveball," but of course they were all bullshit. Point is, you believed it until you were able to ignore it, and now you've got a whole lot more to ignore and spin. Point is, the veracity of any charge in the Mitchell Report is beyond the bent scope of a Rove Monkey--like YOU!

Posted: **Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:18 pm**

RevLimiter wrote:You have a similiar sig Goobs, which CLEARLY would make you just as "stupid".

Watching you repeatedly KYOA never gets old.

Wow. You do realize that BOTH of those sigs are your own retarded creation? In one you infer you had a live in boyfriend at age 15, in the other you rack whitey for calling you stupid.

I get the feeling you've got an IQ hovering near 70, and maybe we should quit picking on you before the S.O.C. gets wind of it.

Posted: **Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:47 pm**

RevLimiter wrote:You have a similiar sig Goobs, which CLEARLY would make you just as "stupid".

Well, not really, tubby. I have a sig where you praised another poster for calling you really, really stupid. You said it was his best post ever.

You have a sig where I suggested that having a 15-year-old girlfriend whose parents were cool with me checking her plumbing would have been a good thing.

Similar? Maybe in Retardland.

Posted: **Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:04 am**

Mister Bushice wrote:
RevLimiter wrote:You have a similiar sig Goobs, which CLEARLY would make you just as "stupid".

Watching you repeatedly KYOA never gets old.
Wow. You do realize that BOTH of those sigs are your own retarded creation? In one you infer you had a live in boyfriend at age 15

Goober McTuber wrote:You have a sig where I suggested that having a 15-year-old girlfriend whose parents were cool with me checking her plumbing would have been a good thing.

Apology accepted in advance.

in the other you rack whitey for calling you stupid.

Actually I racked WAR WAGON for something else in his post besides that which Goobs rather conveniently picked out.

Try to keep up, Ms. Bushlice.

Posted: **Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:12 am**

You said it was his best post ever, you FAT fucking RETARD. Not that some particular point he made caught your eye. He said you were really, really stupid, and you said that was his best post ever. PERIOD.

Posted: **Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:21 am**

Goober McTuber wrote:You said it was his best post ever, you FAT fucking RETARD. Not that some particular point he made caught your eye. He said you were really, really stupid, and you said that was his best post ever. PERIOD.

Spin, spin, spin away my little bitch.

Posted: **Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:24 am**

No spin involved, tubby. Just a statement of fact. Look again at that thread, and your post. Revel in your stupidity, dumbfuck.

Posted: **Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:36 am**

I don't have to look at SHIT you fucking dickhead motherfucker. Fuck you.

Posted: **Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:43 am**

Wrong. I remember the day you posted that. I read it and said "WTF? Whitey calls him stupid and he racks the post?

Then I read goobs reply. Nothing was edited or changed, you are just a fucking moron.

Posted: **Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:47 am**

BSmack wrote:
Mister Bushice wrote:
Right now I'm operating under the assumption that every player was using some kind of performance enhancer. And you know what? I don't fucking care.

The Royals should request refunds

Posted: **Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:40 pm**

Funny how people who don't follow baseball are suddenly "experts" now that the Mitchell Scam has been released.

And Bush obviously believes it -- it's a stroke of luck that he didn't make "The List."

He's been named as the first owner to knowingly turn a blind eye to the roid use, which many people believe (and the time lines back it up) led from roiders being a few individuals, to "almost everyone." Once one owner condoned it (and he did), it was ON!

But... let's see... Mitchell freaking works for the Red Sux.

How many Red Sux were on The List?

How many Orioles, Yankees, and Blue Jays, Red Sux' divisional opponents, were on The List?

Nahhh, nothing fishy about that or anything.

Posted: **Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:57 pm**

mvscal wrote:
And you base that off of a report that doesn't have a shred of credibility?

all those cancelled checks from different players from different teams for the same monetary amounts are pretty compelling "evidence"....

Posted: **Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:10 pm**

Felix wrote:
all those cancelled checks from different players from different teams for the same monetary amounts are pretty compelling "evidence"....

Although I tend to believe the towel-boys' testimony, bear in mind that Radomski and McNamee also were "gofers," and they did tasks for players for which they recieved "tips." They shagged drycleaning, ran personal errands, and stuff like that too.

But since several players have verified what those two testified on, it definitely lends them some credibility.

T1B

Shilling to Clemens: return Cy Youngs or prove innocence

Shilling to Clemens: return Cy Youngs or prove innocence