T1B

Mace wrote:...
At the risk of going Charles Barkley on everyone, I don't feel that I'm a huge role model for my players (other than my own son) when it comes to them making a decision to drink, smoke, or chew, and feel that the role modeling should be done by their parents and in their own homes. I try to be a positive role model for my players when it comes to teaching them about work ethic, dedication to the task at hand, and sportsmanship (among a multitude of other baseball and school related behaviors) but I'm not sure why we have such a concern about the other behaviors.

Mace

Not so sure you have total choice on this one. HS kids are so very impressionable, if they look up to you and have respect for your abilities as a player/coach/teacher/mentor, you're a role model whether you want to be or not.

It just depends on how well you draw the line with them on the personal habits, in terms of getting across that " Do as I say not as I do" concept when it comes to chewing tobacco, or beating your wife in the stands.

As a teacher, I realize that I'm sort of a role model for my students. whether or not I believe that it's truly part of the official job description. I'm in a position of authority over my students, who are a "captive audience," and as a district employee my conduct reflects upon my school. I realize that kids (and even their parents) aren't always sophisticated enough to separate my personal and professional lives, so I have to watch what I say and do, inside and outside of school.

On the positive side, parents have commented positively to me (and to my bosses) on the fact that I don't make a big secret of my home life - that I go to church (one that some of the kids and their families also attend), have been happily married for almost 20 years, am a parent, and that I take concepts like honor, integrity, etc. seriously. The students have seen little blurbs in the local paper about me winning awards from my national fraternity and my chapter (as well as the articles about my chapter's community service stuff), so they know about that aspect of my life also.

Statements that I made in passing on various non-biology topics -on the importance of family, on respecting one's self and others, etc.- have come back to me out of the mouths of students (or have been mentioned by parents) months or years later. I was hired to teach biology, but I've come to realize that kids and their parents expect more than that from me.

On the negative side, I have to be careful about what I say and do in public. If kids and parents are observing and listening to me outside of school and lauding me for my being a great guy, parent, and husband, then I have to realize that being drunk in public, saying crude, insulting, etc. statements, will ALSO be something that folks will see and toss back at me. More than once I've read an op-ed piece in the local paper and wanted to respond but bitten my tongue because I didn't want to inadvertantly drag my district into my opinion and its possible aftermath.

Should a teacher be fired for behavior that the district administrators or parents find offensive? I don't know. I guess it depends on the nature of the activity and how that impacts the learning in the classroom. As a parent, I sure as hell wouldn't want some teacher rolling in to work hungover (but still able to teach) or boasting about the fun of boozing it up, doing drugs, promiscuity/adultery, etc. If a teacher had some "filthy habits" that were 100% legal and in no way impacted the classroom, I think that as a parent and as a teacher, the district has no right (nor do the parents have a right to demand) that the teacher be fired.

I know that New York has a mechanism in place for parents to file a "moral character complant," but I'm not sure what the heck the specific guidelines of a complaint consist of or on what basis the state would follow up and shitcan a teacher. I've never even heard of a tenured teacher being fired for "moral character" reasons (as opposed to breaking the law). I'd be interested in hearing about situations in which those complainst were made and if/how they were acted upon.

Mace, I'd point out to those busybodies who recommended you not consume alcohol in the presence of students that you WERE being a role model - of how it is possible for an adult to consume alcoholic beverages in a responsible manner.

Toddowen wrote:I had an elementary basketball coach that killed his wife the year after I moved on to junior high. Apart from being an excellent coach, he was my math and science teacher for the 5th and 6th grades. Probably the best teacher I had, academically wise.

His wife ran a lot of our practices, too, so we all were very familiar with her.


Rumour has it that he came home and found her with another man, a struggle ensued, and he shot her with a shotgun.


I actually worked alongside of him at a commercial lobster pound for awhile. I never got up the nerve to ask exactly what happened. And in a way, I don't wish to know.

Role model? I'd say you're doing just fine, Mace.

Think of the benefits we would be reaping here if you see your math teacher as a role model then go home and find yourself sleeping with another man.

good call, mace. i've always wondered why school administrators allow coaches to act like complete assholes on the sidelines towards officials, acting like horrible sports and setting the poorest example possible for the players, but frown upon coaches "imbibing" on their own time away from the schools/playing fields. the catholic high school in south bend is notorious for having two of the worst behaved boys and girls bball coaches. we're talking doing everything to bully, intimidate, harass, insult and pretty much act in every way possible contrary to proper sporting ethics (and these guys are supposed to be setting positive catholic examples, , i know). stuff like ball busting about calls when down 45 with two minutes to play and charging out to midcourt, aghast at a call, and then throwing a tantrum after he gets T'd up for running out to midcourt.

but other shit like you mentioned? give me a break. i don't have kids, am not a teacher, nor do i work in a school system, so i'll leave the discussion at that.

Without reading the entire thread, I have to say that being a parent, I have WAY more influence on my kids as role models than any teacher they have every had. Period. I don't care if they have a liberal teacher, which they have had many. My kids are smart enough to see past it. Their home life is solid enough to not be influenced by any teacher they have had.

Mace, if your kids are going to chew and do bad things, they don't have a stable home life. Too bad for them. They will find their way in their own time.

Oh, save your, your a drunk , fat, stupid, mudshark skank emails. I ain't reading them.

:D

Mace, you're a good dude.

I realize there are plenty of students who have poor home lives and their teachers do influence their views greatly.

Good thread, btw.

I am a teacher and a youth coach. Though I live in a large city, it's a small town in many respects. I cannot go to a store or restaurant without someone recognizing me. The extra scrutiny comes with the territory. You cannot be too careful. That said I just came in from a pizza party and had a couple of beers with the families on our soccer team. It's a club team, not a school team. Totally different dynamic than with my school team that's all business. It's basically an extension of the school. No drinking or tobacco. Period.

That said, I'd say I'd have less of a problem with a teacher/coach who sneaked a cig or some chew over one who used foul language in front of young kids. High school, let 'em swear out of earshot from the parents. No harm, no foul. But youngsters just getting their feet wet in competitive youth sports shouldn't have coaches who resemble mvscal at an MLK parade.

Good thread, Mace.

I was thinking about posting this in a new topic tonight, but I'll post it here:

Great expectations

Tired of hearing about the failures of the public schools? Well, here's an idea that works.

Now in its third year, Tulsa's Knowledge Is Power Program Academy takes middle school students from some of Tulsa's worst schools and changes their lives.

Last year, 75 percent of the school's sixth graders scored satisfactory or advanced on the state's annual math test -- the third highest passing percentage in the district.

Only 40 percent of the sixth graders in the schools that the KIPP students would have attended made the same marks on the test. In other words, KIPP kids went from the bottom half of their grade to the top quarter.

On the sixth-grade reading test, 60 percent of KIPP students scored satisfactory or advanced -- sixth best among 15 Tulsa Public Schools' middle schools -- compared to the 47 percent in surrounding schools.

Duplicating KIPP's success starts with expectations.

Principal Millard House II constantly talks to his students about their future -- in college.

A banner in the school's sixth-grade hallway says, ''Class of 2014.'' That's a reference to the kids' college freshman year, not their high school senior year, House says.

Under the banner, 13-year-olds stand quietly in their KIPP Academy uniforms between classes -- and read.

They aren't soulless robots. They're just busy learning in an environment where normal school antics aren't acceptable.

House said the culture shift is difficult for incoming fifth-graders. He brings the students into the school ahead of classes and makes clear what behavior isn't accepted.

Every day he reminds the students of those expectations.

Public policy implication No. 1: Discipline can be maintained in a public school setting, and students will respond.

KIPP's brochure puts it bluntly: ''There are no shortcuts.''

The school day is longer. The school week is longer. The school year is longer. Saturdays and summertime are school time for KIPP kids.

Every child can expect two hours of homework nightly.

An average Tulsa middle school student is in class 1,170 hours a year. At KIPP, it's 1,878 hours a year. It doesn't take a KIPP student to figure out that's 60 percent more.

Public policy implication No. 2: More time in school leads to better results.

House says KIPP's success starts with ''rock star'' teachers.

The teachers are motivated and energetic. You can see it when you see them working with the students.

Rock stars come at a price.

The longer calendar and higher demands on teachers means the KIPP faculty members earn about 30 percent more than most Oklahoma teachers. The school raises the money to pay for that salary bump.

Public policy implication No. 3: If you pay teachers more and give them an environment where they can succeed, you attract better teachers.

In his office, House has the most compelling evidence of the school's potential.

It's a three-ring binder chock full of students on the waiting list to get into the school, including kindergartners who want to enter the fifth grade class of 2013.

That's the college freshman class of 2021.

Public policy implication No. 4: Public schools can work, if they're given a chance.

My kids were recently in public school. This school had middle class kids and also kids from one of the poorest areas of the city. In the case of the middle class kids, basically, they don't need the teachers to act as role models. The poor kids need that and anything else you might care to mention. My son's third grade class was 28 kids (and steadily growing). There's no way on Earth that even the best teacher can give the needy kids all that they require to succeed...but even a little bit is more than they had to begin with.

They are onto something there. I agree totally that a "good teacher" has a super high energy level and is fully dedicated to helping the students. Here's another item for discussion---class size. Put that teacher with a science lab class of say 10 kids or less in a 45 minute class time. Now put that same teacher in a science lab class of say 20 or more kids in the same time period. Guess where the greatest success will happen ?? Need more time to think about it ?
I'll tell you that I experienced both sides of that scenario. When I first began teaching, my class sizes were no more than 12 in a lab and no more that 25 in a lecture/recitation class. As time passed the class sizes got larger and larger.
Lab classes got up to 25 or so and lecture recitation zoomed to 35 or more ! The difference in my effectiveness became painfully apparent. I cringed when I saw an administrator come into my room and start counting seats and measuring room size. For a teacher who had daily student work to read and evaluate, it became more and more time consuming.
When I realized I no longer had the drive and focus to keep up that level of energy, I was fortunate to have been able to retire after 32 years. I knew quite a few teachers that did not, and literally were "mailing it in". I remember one teacher who failed a student after the final exam; when his grade book was called in he only had two grades for the entire year for the kid ! It would have been very easy for someone to slack off and just cash in their paychecks every other week; I could not do that to the kids.
One of the down sides of my moving from there to here, was that I miss meeting former students and chatting with them.

Props to the teachers here, it's a job that mosty of us wouldn't want to do.

IMHO, if it is school related, then you should hold yourself to a higher standard with regards to your activities & actions. Kids of all socio-economic backgrounds are influenced by teachers, some have a positive influence and some negative so I think you should always keep that in the back of your minds. If I'm at a work related function, I certainly act differently then when I'm at a strictly social function. When you are representing something more than yourself, you have to hold yourself to a higher standard.

Outside of school and school related functions, I don't see why you should hold yourself to any higher standard than anyone else. As long as you aren't engaged in any illegal or blatently reckless/dangerous, public behavior, then there should be no official or even un-official comment on what you do.

Wolfman wrote:One of the down sides of my moving from there to here, was that I miss meeting former students and chatting with them.

You could give them the link to this place.

Mace wrote:and we're able to buy some $300 bats and some good catching gear.

Face it, you're only in this for the bling, you unfeeling, do-nothing bastard.




RACK the ever-living fuck out of the entire post from which I quoted, btw.

Awesome stuff, Mace.

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:... as a district employee...

Thank God I teach at a private/non-socialist school.

Kierland wrote:

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:... as a district employee...

Thank God I teach at a private/non-socialist school.

Queerland is a teacher? Dear fucking God.

Interesting topic as this very subject has breach our household on Monday. My wife has been a teacher for over 18 years, mostly in LA for 'special' students. Here on the central coast, she teaches normal students in a very stuffy environment. We literally cannot go any where in town without running into students/parents. Kat is constantly reminding me to watch my manners and to buy my alcohol when I'm out of the area. I've pretty much conform to this new non-anonymous environment as I have some of her parents as clients also.

However, this week Kat brings home her new contract for next year and behold, there is a "moral living" contract that they expect her to sign and agree to up hold at the expense of her employment. We just looked at each other over the kitchen table with a :| look. What was even more precocious, is the statement that the spouse was expected to conform to their guidelines as well.

Long story short, this will be her last term at this school and she is coming to work for me. We'll determine our own moral standards.

Kierland wrote:Thank God I teach at a private/non-socialist school.

Hey, private schools have a niche. Where else could uncertified folks be allowed to pretend that they're actually trained educators? Where else can school board members flagrantly exercise their political and personal biases to shitcan long-time teachers at the drop of a hat?

Look, I believe that no prospective employee (in education or any other field) has a right to complain if a "morals clause" is in their contract prior to hiring and they still sign the contract. What Jerkovich and his wife are doing is a perfect example of what folks SHOULD do - read the contract, and if you feel that it is out of line, don't frigging sign it and seek employment elsewhere. If you teach at a Catholic school, don't expect them to retain you if you break Church law by getting IVF, an abortion, etc. If you are a science teacher and get hired at some evangelical, thumper, holy roller "school," don't get pissed off if they want you to teach that the Earth is 6,000 years old and that got created all species all at once "perfect and unchanging."

Part of why I like teaching at a public school is that when school board members try tampering with curriculum or discipline at the school board level only because it directly impacts their kid (e.g., when a past board member threatened firing a teacher for daring to write a referral on their little "angel," when a school board member objected to the teaching of "pagan religions" like Islam, Buddhism, etc. to their kids in Global Studies class), they get legally nailed for it by the state school boards' association. I like the fact that if a bunch of temperance-minded folks want to have me shitcanned because they saw me walk out of a bar, that I can tell them to fucking pound sand. Try that shit in a lot of private schools (including where my younger brother teaches), and you're out of a job.

As long as I do my job well (100% passing rate on state exams for the umpteenth semester, great annual evaluations, advisor of student council, productive member of several committees, etc.) and I don't break the law, I shouldn't have think twice about some holy roller with a stick up their ass trying to get me fired for buying a case of beer in Wegman's.

Jerkovich wrote: However, this week Kat brings home her new contract for next year and behold, there is a "moral living" contract that they expect her to sign and agree to up hold at the expense of her employment. We just looked at each other over the kitchen table with a :| look. What was even more precocious, is the statement that the spouse was expected to conform to their guidelines as well.

Canoodling with the reindeer (even without your consent) could prove problematic.

Mace,
I don't teach kids. Nice try though.

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:Where else could uncertified folks be allowed to pretend that they're actually trained educators?

So you are a Socialist. How does that work with your (alleged) Libertarian leanings?

Where else can school board members flagrantly exercise their political and personal biases to shitcan long-time teachers at the drop of a hat?

We're an LLC and the Dean owns 51%. I'm a regular dude with a job. Boss likes me I stay. Nice try though.

I like the fact that if a bunch of temperance-minded folks want to have me shitcanned because they saw me walk out of a bar, that I can tell them to fucking pound sand. Try that shit in a lot of private schools (including where my younger brother teaches), and you're out of a job.

See above. The next time you get something right will be the first.

I shouldn't have think twice about some holy roller with a stick up their ass trying to get me fired for buying a case of beer in Wegman's.

Had a drink with the Dean last week.

You were saying what about you sucking at the teet of Socialisim that was so great?

Kierland wrote:So you are a Socialist. How does that work with your (alleged) Libertarian leanings?

Being a government employee no more makes me a socialist than it does police officers (up through and including state police), sanitation workers, governors, village clerks, building inspectors, etc.

I sure as hell hope your "teaching" doesn't include political science, because you obviously haven't a clue.

I don't teach at a private secondary school because, quite frankly, they can't afford me. I expect to be compensated (salary and benefits) for both my Master's degrees, and now that I've got a six-year NYS Regents Exam pass rate that is climbing closer to 100%, experience teaching 9th & 10th grade bio, AP Bio, chemistry, and have created an infectious diseases elective, I expect them to pay through the frigging nose and beat my current salary. The further I'd have to commute, the more I expect them to pay. So far, they haven't even even come close, so I let the free market rule, and I stay right where I am.

Oh, and every one of the three superintendents for whom I have served and every principal with whom I've worked also digs my work. Parents also dig me. Students respect and dig me.

And I didn't have to get hammered with ANY of them to get or keep my job.

Kierland wrote:We're an LLC and the Dean owns 51%. I'm a regular dude with a job. Boss likes me I stay. Nice try though.

Actually, I know several folks who work as elementary and secondary teachers at private schools, and my description is accurate for their collective situations. The whole education system -let alone private/parochial educational systems- doesn't revolve around your own workplace, believe it or not, so citing your personal experience as the paradigm doesn't really prove your point.

Since you've demonstrated a glaring ignorance of political science, seeing you mishandle logic is not really a shocker.

Kierland wrote:Had a drink with the Dean last week.

Yeah, I'd have to be liquored up in order to listen to your mindless drivel in-person also.

Was he hammered when he offered you a contract and you crossed out "custodian" and replaced it with "TEECHER?"

Kierland wrote:You were saying what about you sucking at the teet of Socialisim that was so great?

Tenure is a beautiful thing. If a bunch of freaks get elected to the school board, they can't just shitcan me and replace me with their spouse, third-cousin, or whatever freak they know and who needs a job. They also can't just decide to have me drop parts of the curriculum just because it offends their religious or political views. You, OTOH, could be replaced by anyone who could at least tie Terri Schiavo in "rock, paper, scissors."

Based upon his quips thus far, we know that Kierland doesn't teach kids (as Mace said, thank God). This means that he teaches adults. He has bragged that his employer is a private institution. If we combine the glaring stupidity of his posts to this point with the reluctance of most PhD's/MS holders to teach in a non-tenure-track position, we can assume that Kierland is an uncertified nonacademic, probably claiming his teaching credentials through "life skills." I'm going to guess that Kierland's place of employment is either some rinky-dink faith-based pseudocollege or a "career-based educational institute" (like Everest).

Yeah, that gives him scads of credibility when he attempts to chime in on a thread discussing whether certified, degree-holding elementary/secondary teachers and others who teach children should be held to a vague "morals clause" to keep their jobs.

I'm sure that the parents of his ADULT students worry if his actions might prove a bad example for their impressionable young darlings. And hey, knocking back a drink with the Dean....well, well, well, quite the rogue, aren't you, Kierland? Aren't you afraid that one of your ADULT students (several of whom may be 21 or over) might see you drinking?

My God, but you're an idiot.

And you seem to get more stupid with each post.

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:I'm going to guess that Kierland's place of employment is either some rinky-dink faith-based pseudocollege ...

Back when I was first trying to get a direct hire IT job, I worked a contract gig with a guy who had, I shit you not, a degree from Elim Bible Institute in "Praise and Worship". I know this because he came to me looking for help formatting his resume in MS Word and that was his highest level of educational achievement. Apparently basic word processing skills were not something covered by a "Praise and Worship" curriculum.

Interesting that Lab Rat brought up the subject of tenure. At the last school in my career (I taught there for 26 years)
the Principal of my building did not recommend me for tenure because I did not socialize with the faculty and staff !
My science department head went to bat for me and said that was not a criterion for tenure-- classroom results were.
I was forever in his debt.

Wolfman wrote:Interesting that Lab Rat brought up the subject of tenure. At the last school in my career (I taught there for 26 years)
the Principal of my building did not recommend me for tenure because I did not socialize with the faculty and staff !
My science department head went to bat for me and said that was not a criterion for tenure-- classroom results were.
I was forever in his debt.

Wolfman tenureless
No Beast Light at happy hour
Now posts pinkyless

Mike the Lab Rat wrote:Based upon his quips thus far, we know that Kierland doesn't teach kids (as Mace said, thank God). This means that he teaches adults. He has bragged that his employer is a private institution. If we combine the glaring stupidity of his posts to this point with the reluctance of most PhD's/MS holders to teach in a non-tenure-track position, we can assume that Kierland is an uncertified nonacademic, probably claiming his teaching credentials through "life skills." I'm going to guess that Kierland's place of employment is either some rinky-dink faith-based pseudocollege or a "career-based educational institute" (like Everest).

I was thinking ITT Technical Institute.

socal wrote:

Wolfman wrote:Interesting that Lab Rat brought up the subject of tenure. At the last school in my career (I taught there for 26 years)
the Principal of my building did not recommend me for tenure because I did not socialize with the faculty and staff !
My science department head went to bat for me and said that was not a criterion for tenure-- classroom results were.
I was forever in his debt.

Wolfman tenureless
No Beast Light at happy hour
Now posts pinkyless

That is a haiku
about wolfman so it is
More like a whocares