T1B

With apologies to Lefty and Blind Ref, the referees in FBS football have got to be the worst of any major sport. No other sport has refs that needlessly alter the outcome of games as frequently as it happens in CFB. This most recent officiating gaffe that arguably cost Washington the game yesterday is just one of a multitude of fuck-ups in recent years. OU fan is still bitter about that Oregon game a couple years back, and rightfully so. The PI call that gave OSU its MNC against Miami will go down in history as one of the most controversial calls of all time. And now it seems like "excessive celebration" is being defined as any celebration. Since when do fist pumps or chest bumps warrant a 15-yard penalty? Here's a novel concept - when in doubt, keep that fucking yellow hankie in your pocket and let the kids decide it on the field. The sad thing is, it seems to have actually gotten worse since the arrival of instant replay.

Hey Lefty or blind could either of you explain to me the fumble call in the Cincinnati @ Oklahoma game Saturday if you caught it? I tried to find something on Youtube or anywhere else but haven't been able to. This thread only reminded me.

The best way I can explain it is that an OU LB (Ryan Reynolds) came from behind and punched the ball free from the ball carriers hands along the sidelines. The ball was never taken repossession of by the ball carrier but he touched it as he headed out of bounds while the ball was still live in play. An Oklahoma player recovered the ball while it was still in the field but possession remained with the Bearcats?

must not of watched the Miami-Jets game.

official 3 feet away, watching the play in endzone, allows WR to be tackled in end zone. waves his arms as an incomplete pass.

the official 15 yards or more had to throw the flag for pass interference .


officials in all of the sports are pathetic.

The sad thing is, it seems to have actually gotten worse since the arrival of instant replay.

A lot of that probably has to do with refs getting lazy. They figure they don't have to bust their balls so much since it can just be reviewed. I agree.....it has gotten worse.

Baseball umps are far worse than CFB refs though. At least CFB refs (or most of them) aren't blatantly cheating. I'd rather have refs screw up unintentionally than flat out cheat like MLB umps do for certain pitchers/hitters/teams. You can tell they're intentionally being favorable to certain teams and players in MLB. In CFB, I think they just screw up sometimes and really I'm fine with that. Maybe they need better training.

Mike,

If the coaches don't want it called, then they need to take it out of the rule book. The rule book is not the end all be all of college rules. There is a section called interpretations that spells out what constitutes a foul under the rules. We get updates to these throughout the season. We also get DVDs with certain plays that are to be called a certain way. About 40 mins into one of the DVDs sent out this season is a player tossing a ball straight up into the air just like you saw in the Washington game. On the DVD we were instructed to make that call every single time.

This begs a new question. Do you want officials to stop making black and white calls or do you want us to try to call a game based on how it affects the game? You use a line that we hear all the time, "let the kids decide it on the field of play." I would argue that we do. The official didn't throw the ball into the air, the player did. The officials were then forced to act. Let's look at another play. Say on the game winning pass, the WR on the other side jumped a half second early. Only the official and the CB see it. The pass goes to the other side of the field and is completed to win the game. Should the official overlook that since it had no effect on the play?

On another subject that you brought up I agree that some things have changed. Replay has changed how we call some things. Let's say that you are not 100% sure on a fumble or down by contact. We have been instructed to let the play go as if it was a fumble. The thinking is that if it isn't a fumble review will catch it and the ball can be given back to the offense at the spot where the player was down. However, if we stopped the play and blew the whistle then the play can't be reviewed and the ball can't be given to the defense. So you are correct that review has changed how games are called.

Finally on the PI call in the Fiesta Bowl, that call is 100% correct. I know Randy Christal personally and we have discussed that call many times. The SJ threw his flag for holding, but because the ball was thrown to that WR it becomes PI. Bottom line it was the correct call and the players still decided the game on the field. Miami can't blame that on anyone but themselves. Funny how Miami never mentions the 4th and long that they allowed OSU to convert earlier in OT.



Suncoast,

Frozen's explanation was spot on. Maybe you can convince him that he needs to officiate as I have been working on him for some time. Ball is dead if it touches any player or official who is also touching any part of the sideline. Only other part I would add is that the ball should have been spotted back at the spot of the fumble since you said it went forward. No credit to the offense for fumbling forward out of bounds.



Jon & Adelpiero

I would invite either one of you to take me up on my offer instead of just complaining about officials. Jon, you had a family friend who was an official I thought? You should then know the year round training that we go thru. But again for either one of you. I will put you in touch with your local officiating association, I will pay your first year dues, and I will help with your first year uniform. You just have to show up and then prove that you actually attended and I foot the bill. In other words I will put my money where your mouth is and I bet you change your tune.

I wasn't bitching about the call. I kind of figured that was what the situation was but wanted to be sure for future reference.

I almost got into officiating and was honestly looking into it. Don't remember if it was lefty or Blind that I was discussing it with for a few months but that was many years ago. Decided that it coupled with a new marriage and starting up my own firm it was just a little too much to be on the plate at one time in life.

Maybe in the future but with my father as ill as he is, my SO probably about to move in, and the market the way it is now certainly isn't the time.

I umpire little league games and I can't imagine anything can be worse than overzealous parents.

Also damn near went to the Jim Evans Umpiring Academy in Kissame at about the same time...

I would invite either one of you to take me up on my offer instead of just complaining about officials. Jon, you had a family friend who was an official I thought? You should then know the year round training that we go thru. But again for either one of you. I will put you in touch with your local officiating association, I will pay your first year dues, and I will help with your first year uniform. You just have to show up and then prove that you actually attended and I foot the bill. In other words I will put my money where your mouth is and I bet you change your tune.

been there done that, ump'd baseball while in highschool.

out there behind the plate, doing 3-6 games a day, in full gear when it was 98+ degrees.

was easy gig, did my job, was asked to do high school, get my papers, take test or whatever. i said no thanx, i wasn't into it.

See, it wasn't a job i wanted, these officials chose this profession and are piss poor at it. for all we know, you might be one of those piss poor officials.

Jon & Adelpiero

I would invite either one of you to take me up on my offer instead of just complaining about officials. Jon, you had a family friend who was an official I thought? You should then know the year round training that we go thru. But again for either one of you. I will put you in touch with your local officiating association, I will pay your first year dues, and I will help with your first year uniform. You just have to show up and then prove that you actually attended and I foot the bill. In other words I will put my money where your mouth is and I bet you change your tune.

Tom Ahlers used to live just down the street from my parents. His daughter, Katie, has a nice rack. He was a very good official in the Big-12/8 for many years. I think he's quit though. Haven't seen him in probably 4-5 years I think.

A good portion of refs in CFB are decent, but you cannot tell me there aren't some really bad ones. I know you gotta stick up for your guys but there's some refs out there that have no business doing this. But there are also some really good ones, we just never hear about them. I know it's a tough job, I'm not trying to make it sound easy. I'm just curious as to how D-1 refs are judged......if they are at all.

Have a lot more respect for CFB refs than I do MLB umps. At least when a CFB ref makes a mistake you can typically assume it's just a human error (and those things happen, even the best of them). But when an MLB ump screws up you have to question if it really was a screw-up or he's just biased.

Adelpiero wrote:
See, it wasn't a job i wanted, these officials chose this profession and are piss poor at it. for all we know, you might be one of those piss poor officials.

Don't confuse your baseball experience with other sports. In baseball you can make a living as an umpire. No way you can do that in football. In football you are lucky that what you are paid as an official in the early years covers all your costs. Further guys in the Big XII, Big 11, etc are paid around $1500 per game. That won't pay the note on the house. Officiating football is a hobby not a profession.



Jon,

They are graded on each snap. An observer is at every game and immediately after the game they watch the game tapes with the observer and grades are assigned. Written tests are also administered multiple times throughout the course of the season. In my conference a passing grade is 85% or higher.

A question, as it relates to this thread ...

My gf and I were flipping between the Cincy-OU game and the WVa-ECU game.

We saw virtually the same play, in both games, within minutes, which kind of freaked me out ...

Namely, a runner with the ball, with his hands on a lose ball, with the ball being in bounds and his body being out of bounds.

I'll try to find vids of each play, but they were called completely different.



Let's face it, college referees are no-name fat-bellied motherfucking tards who couldn't call out an Applebees waitress for getting something wrong, much less one of their peers, when it comes to CF rules.

I'll try to find vids of each play, but they were called completely different.

Find links and we can discuss. I will add you to the list RadioFan. Take me up on my offer and you will change your tune. College football officials know the rules far better than you as a fan do. Now granted it isn't all your fault, since every other game you see is played by different rules. Youth league games have one set, which is different than the rules for OK HS football, which are different from NCAA football, which are different from NFL football.

Being a radio guy yourself I would encourage you to listen to me on the radio and see just what I say about officials. I have made some of the HS guys who also call college games very upset with some of my comments. They expect me to homer for them on the radio because I am also an official. It doesn't happen. But 98% of the stuff that is brought up in here is in fact called correctly no matter how wrong you think the officials are.


Frozen, SunCoast, other.

Another way to think about this dead ball rule is during a kickoff. Team A kicks off to Team B. The ball is caught by #8 of Team B inbounds, but #8's foot is just touching the sideline. The ball is dead and a flag is dropped for a kick out of bounds. Team B can then choose to have Team A rekick, take the ball at the spot where it was dead, or 30 yards in advance of where it was kicked.

I see where you are coming from, but what if OU were on the other side of the ball?

Also remember that about 10 years ago the coaches changed the fumble rules when the ball goes out of bounds. Fumble forward and it comes back to the spot of the fumble, fumble backwards and it is put in play at that spot. Finally on 4th down, the fumbler has to recover the fumble or the ball is brought back to the spot of the fumble if recovered by a teammate.

Left Seater wrote:

I'll try to find vids of each play, but they were called completely different.

Find links and we can discuss.

I've been looking, but so far all I can find is message board discussions on the call on Pat White.

All I know is in both plays, part of the player's body was out of bounds while touching a loose ball inbounds. The ball was recovered by the opposing team. In Pat White's case, it was ruled a fumble and in Cincy's case, it was ruled a dead ball and Cincy maintained possession. Virtually the same play within minutes of each other, with two different calls. And to top it off, in the WVa.-ECU game, the refs didn't even do an instant replay review, which they at least did in the OU game.

I even said something to my gf about how bizzare it was to see both of those plays in two different games at nearly the same time.

I don't doubt there are many good refs. There are also some incredibly arrogant/ignorant ones ('sup Pac 10?). I don't think consistency is too much to ask for.

Lefty,
I don't doubt you about the DVD, but I still think it's a judgment call by the ref, and in this case, the ref exercised poor judgment, IMO. Let's put it another way - if the ref hadn't made the call he had, do you really think he would've been graded poorly for it in the post-game evaluations you're talking about? If you can honestly say yes, then I guess my beef is with the NCAA and not this particular ref, but I can't imagine a ref catching any flak for not making that call.

BTW, while I've got the attention of all you rules geeks, let me ask you about something that happened in a game of NCAA 09 in my league: Team A is lining up for a potential game-winning FG with 2 seconds left and the clock stopped. The ball is snapped, the FG is good, but there is a holding call on the play. In the game in question, the game simply ended and the kicking team lost. Now I know in the NFL there is a 10-second run-off if there's a penalty in that situation, but I didn't think that rule existed in the NCAA. Did EA get this one right or is this just another example of them having their collective heads up their asses?

Left Seater wrote: This begs a new question. Do you want officials to stop making black and white calls or do you want us to try to call a game based on how it affects the game? You use a line that we hear all the time, "let the kids decide it on the field of play." I would argue that we do. The official didn't throw the ball into the air, the player did. The officials were then forced to act. Let's look at another play. Say on the game winning pass, the WR on the other side jumped a half second early. Only the official and the CB see it. The pass goes to the other side of the field and is completed to win the game. Should the official overlook that since it had no effect on the play?

BTW, I don't think this is the best example to use to support your argument. In the case you described, the ref would've thrown a flag and blown the play dead right as the ball was snapped, which means the pass to the other side of the field was never a live ball to begin with. Now if the ref saw the WR jump, initially decided not to call it, then saw the play go for a TD and changed his mind and threw a flag afterwards, then yeah, I'd say that's a big steaming pile of horseshit too.

MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan wrote:Lefty,
I don't doubt you about the DVD, but I still think it's a judgment call by the ref, and in this case, the ref exercised poor judgment, IMO. Let's put it another way - if the ref hadn't made the call he had, do you really think he would've been graded poorly for it in the post-game evaluations you're talking about? If you can honestly say yes, then I guess my beef is with the NCAA and not this particular ref, but I can't imagine a ref catching any flak for not making that call.

I have no doubt that he would have been downgraded for the non call. The DVD clearly says that must be called and to not call it because of the time/situation would result in a missed call and a downgrade.

MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan wrote:BTW, while I've got the attention of all you rules geeks, let me ask you about something that happened in a game of NCAA 09 in my league: Team A is lining up for a potential game-winning FG with 2 seconds left and the clock stopped. The ball is snapped, the FG is good, but there is a holding call on the play. In the game in question, the game simply ended and the kicking team lost. Now I know in the NFL there is a 10-second run-off if there's a penalty in that situation, but I didn't think that rule existed in the NCAA. Did EA get this one right or is this just another example of them having their collective heads up their asses?

EA got it wrong. The game or Half can not end on an accepted penalty. Team B would no doubt accept the penalty becuase they would lose otherwise. Declining the penalty would allow the play to stand and Team A's kick would win the game. Because the penalty would be accepted there would be one untimed down.

Bump.

As much as I hate to be that "Waaaah, the refs screwed us" guy, I have to say that the officiating in today's CU/FSU game was some of the worst I've seen outside of the Pac 10. Granted, poor officiating is no excuse for letting a godawful FSU team hang 39 points on you, but when literally every questionable call goes against your team, it's hard not to get a little frustrated. From Cody's incompletion that was ruled a fumble to Preston Parker's fumble that was overturned, that game was just really tough to watch. Do these fucking refs even see the same shit we're seeing?

Like I said, I'm not making excuses. CU would've lost that game even with a competent officiating crew, but it might've at least been a little more entertaining down the stretch...

competent officiating crew

doesn't exist

MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan wrote: Granted, poor officiating is no excuse for letting a godawful FSU team hang 39 points on you

Then why are you complaining.

Preston Parker's fumble that was overturned

His ass was on the turf when the ball came out. If you are down, you cannot fumble. BTW, looking at the replay of that supposed "fumble", what was with the colorado dude grabbing parkers balls while wrapping his left left around his neck. At least they teach y'all to give courtesy reach a rounds at Rape College.

I applied for an officiating job in the Pac-10. They declined my hiring due to my being overqualified.


Sincerely,

Helen A. Keller