T1B

FUCK him,AND Bonds! Guess Canseco was telling the truth after all. :roll:


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2011689



Updated: Mar. 12, 2005, 10:20 PM ET
Probe links McGwire to steroids in '90s
ESPN.com news services


Five days before the House Government Reform Committee is scheduled to question current and former major-league baseball players about steroids, one of the subpoened players, Mark McGwire, has emerged as a prominent figure of a month-long investigation by the New York Daily News.



Getty
Mark McGwire has declined an invitation to appear at the government hearing on steroids scheduled for March 17.
Citing FBI sources, the newspaper reported that McGwire's name came up several times in a landmark anabolic steroids investigation that led to 70 convictions in the early 1990s.

While evidence against McGwire was never collected and he was not a target in the investigation, two steroid dealers caught in the probe told the Daily News that another dealer provided McGwire and Jose Canseco, among others, with illegal anabolic steroids.

The Daily News said an informant told the paper that a California man named Curtis Wenzlaff injected McGwire on several occassions at a gym in Southern California. A former member of the gym where McGwire and Wenzlaff allegedly worked out together told the paper that he heard the two discuss steroids.

According to one of the informants, who the FBI said provided credible information throughout its probe, McGwire's regimen reportedly included injecting himself in the buttocks once every three days with two testosterone substances and weekly with another.

When contacted by the Daily News, Wenzlaff had no comment about the McGwire accounts but admitted turning Canseco from a novice into an expert steroid user.

According to the paper, representatives for McGwire and Canseco said the two did not remember meeting Wenzlaff and were not aware their names came up in the investigation.

"We're not going to comment on anything at this time but we believe one should consider the sources of such allegations," McGwire's representative said.

"Jose doesn't want to deny knowing him, but he just doesn't remember the guy," Canseco's attorney said.

McGwire has always denied using steroids, including as recently as last month, when Canseco's book was published.

Wenzlaff was introduced to the A's by longtime friend Reggie Jackson, who Wenzlaff insists never used steroids or knew that Wenzlaff was dealing them.

One has to wonder when someone will finally launch a RICO investigation against MLB owners. It is obvious that they had to know about this and allowed it to go on. The words are "continuing criminal enterprise".

BSmack wrote:One has to wonder when someone will finally launch a RICO investigation against MLB owners. It is obvious that they had to know about this and allowed it to go on. The words are "continuing criminal enterprise".

no, the union should be ones being penalized



union is to serve and protect, which they did




owners probably never seen a guy injected, so they can play it was hearsay mumbo jumbo.

Adelpiero wrote:

BSmack wrote:One has to wonder when someone will finally launch a RICO investigation against MLB owners. It is obvious that they had to know about this and allowed it to go on. The words are "continuing criminal enterprise".

no, the union should be ones being penalized union is to serve and protect, which they did owners probably never seen a guy injected, so they can play it was hearsay mumbo jumbo.

If I were an ambitious federal prosecutopr, I would go after the whole package. There is no way that these steroid dealers are allowed the kind of access they had to the players without the complicity of the owners.

BSmack wrote:

Adelpiero wrote:

BSmack wrote:One has to wonder when someone will finally launch a RICO investigation against MLB owners. It is obvious that they had to know about this and allowed it to go on. The words are "continuing criminal enterprise".

no, the union should be ones being penalized union is to serve and protect, which they did owners probably never seen a guy injected, so they can play it was hearsay mumbo jumbo.

If I were an ambitious federal prosecutopr, I would go after the whole package. There is no way that these steroid dealers are allowed the kind of access they had to the players without the complicity of the owners.

Dude, some owners dont even live in the states of their ownership, while they might know some stuff, it would be total hearsay to say they seen and knew1


but managers, union leadersip, and players should be dealt with!



Also, i'm no Mac fan, but i don;t take drug dealers words, lets see the facts first.

bonds admitted in court he took roids
giambi admitted he took it!

those are the only 2 who have been proven cheaters, rest we have to hope are outted with factual info, not pissed and broke trainers and dealers wanting to sell a story!

Adelpiero wrote:

BSmack wrote:

Adelpiero wrote: no, the union should be ones being penalized union is to serve and protect, which they did owners probably never seen a guy injected, so they can play it was hearsay mumbo jumbo.

If I were an ambitious federal prosecutopr, I would go after the whole package. There is no way that these steroid dealers are allowed the kind of access they had to the players without the complicity of the owners.

Dude, some owners dont even live in the states of their ownership, while they might know some stuff, it would be total hearsay to say they seen and knew1

but managers, union leadersip, and players should be dealt with!

You seriously think that players and managers would have acted in the same manner if they knew the owners were going to drop the hammer on juicers? Replace the words "drug dealer" with "bookie" and tell me that the MLB ownership wouldn't have had a collective cow.

No, the owners knew EXACTLY what was going on and they condoned it with their inaction. The law provides for penalties in the case of a landlord who allows drugs to be dealt in his apartment buildings, the law can certainly provide for MLB owners who winked and looked the other way.

Also, i'm no Mac fan, but i don;t take drug dealers words, lets see the facts first. bonds admitted in court he took roids giambi admitted he took it! those are the only 2 who have been proven cheaters, rest we have to hope are outted with factual info, not pissed and broke trainers and dealers wanting to sell a story!

It is only a matter of time before others fall. That is why MLB owners are freaking out. They know what the deal is. That is why they are floating this proposal to have the IOC doping committee handle their dirty laundry. The problem is, it will never fly. With every new revelation, the story just gets bigger.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2011544

BTW: Here's a quote that indicates Congress has no fucking clue what they are talking about.

"I think it's time for pro sports in America to get in line with the high standards of the Olympics,"- Joe Biden

I just wonder if it had been scrubs like Buddy Biancalana,or Zane Smith juicing.Would baseball,or congress even give a shit???

I guess I shouldn't be too shocked that McGwire would be linked to all of this...most of the problems have been in the Bay Area. It breaks my heart to hear about one of the biggest heroes of mine is a complete fraud but it's better to know the truth than go through all these years believing a lie. I hope every cheater is revealed at some point so we can all know who was legit.

I hope I don't hear that Cecil Fielder was a juicer too...with that physique, I'd have my doubts. His 51 homers in 1990 might be the last great home run season.

Has anyone gone after Brady Anderson yet? His 50 home runs in 1996 has reaked of steroids for years.

The Assassin wrote:I just wonder if it had been scrubs like Buddy Biancalana,or Zane Smith juicing.Would baseball,or congress even give a shit???

Who the fuck would know about those guys? The whole idea behind juicing is to get BETTER, not to continue to suck out loud. Just the same, it is funny that Jeremy Giambi has come out of the steroid closet. Hey Jeremy! Nice job admitting that you suck ass even after taking the juice. Now go and park my fucking car.

BSmack wrote:If I were an ambitious federal prosecutor

Is there any other kind. There are no criminals, only feathers to be placed in the prosecutor's cap.

BSmack wrote:

The Assassin wrote:I just wonder if it had been scrubs like Buddy Biancalana,or Zane Smith juicing.Would baseball,or congress even give a shit???

Who the fuck would know about those guys? The whole idea behind juicing is to get BETTER, not to continue to suck out loud. Just the same, it is funny that Jeremy Giambi has come out of the steroid closet. Hey Jeremy! Nice job admitting that you suck ass even after taking the juice. Now go and park my fucking car.

Thats hilarious.

The Assassin wrote:scrubs like Buddy Biancalana

I thought Biancalana was a breath freshener!

Boo-hooo! Everybody did steroids. Who gives a rats ass. I say legalize everything, and let these guys do what they want to their bodies. I want people stealing 100 bases, hitting 90 HRs and driving in 200. I want to see more 500 foot BOMBS! Steroids saved baseball. Without them, do you really think Mac and Sosa would have had that epic battle for the HR record?

^^^

Line item RACK

Mace wrote: Willie Mays remains the greatest all round player of all time, IMO, and I'm convinced he'd have hit 900 homers in his career if he'd been juiced.

1200 if the parks he played in were as small as the modern parks.

Mace wrote:

Brilliant! wrote:Boo-hooo! Everybody did steroids. Who gives a rats ass. I say legalize everything, and let these guys do what they want to their bodies. I want people stealing 100 bases, hitting 90 HRs and driving in 200. I want to see more 500 foot BOMBS! Steroids saved baseball. Without them, do you really think Mac and Sosa would have had that epic battle for the HR record?

You're right about the Sosa-Mac battle saving baseball but you're wrong about everything else. MLB had to have looked the other way (Bri is right) in order for the steroid use to become so rampant in the game but the player's union, IMO, should be held far more accountable than the owners or MLB. The union has fought testing and rules against steroids under the pretense of protecting the players when, in fact, they have allowed players to do much damage to their body and lives and, in the process, have destroyed the integrity of the game. Public opinion has forced the union and MLB to change their stance and, while the new rules/penalties don't go far enough to suit me, it's a start. They should all be banned with their first dirty drug test, IMO.....with no exceptions.

Is Barry Bonds the greatest player of all time? Fuck no. He's Bobby Bonds on 'roids. Willie Mays remains the greatest all round player of all time, IMO, and I'm convinced he'd have hit 900 homers in his career if he'd been juiced. He's that much better than Barry.....as are Aaron, Williams, and a host of other HoF hitters. Barry NEEDS to 'roid up just to muster the strengh to carry their jocks because, without the juice, he'd have been only marginally better than his old man who was once pronounced "the next Willie Mays".

You want to see 500 foot bombs? Go to a slow pitch softball game and watch the homerun parade, but stay the fuck out of baseball.

Mace

RACK!!!

Bonds was a HOFer before he took the cream and the clear. He is the best combination of power and speed. In my book, he is the second greatest player next to Ruth.

Mace wrote:

Cicero wrote:Bonds was a HOFer before he took the cream and the clear. He is the best combination of power and speed. In my book, he is the second greatest player next to Ruth.

Possibly, maybe even probably......but when, exactly, did he start using 'roids? You can't really make that statement unless you can answer that question.

Mace

You are being too nice. No way Bonds was considered in the top 5 before about 98-99. Before 2000, he wasn't even the best outfielder in baseball AT THAT TIME. Walker was. When Barry started hitting 480 footers instead of 380 footers is when people started deifying the jackass.

rozy wrote:

Mace wrote:

Cicero wrote:Bonds was a HOFer before he took the cream and the clear. He is the best combination of power and speed. In my book, he is the second greatest player next to Ruth.

Possibly, maybe even probably......but when, exactly, did he start using 'roids? You can't really make that statement unless you can answer that question.

Mace

You are being too nice. No way Bonds was considered in the top 5 before about 98-99. Before 2000, he wasn't even the best outfielder in baseball AT THAT TIME. Walker was. When Barry started hitting 480 footers instead of 380 footers is when people started deifying the jackass.

When people look back on Bonds they will see 700+ HRs .300 BA and 500+ steals and think of Bonds as this superhuman beast who could straight up mash and swipe bases. The mental picture one develops when seeing those numbers is the mutant love child of Ted Williams and Omar Moreno.

The reality is that Bonds gave up base stealing after 1997. From 92 to 97 Bonds was that combination of power and speed, but he was not a great hitter for average. In fact, it was only last year that Bonds career average creeped over the .300 line. And that was only after after he posted 4 seasons of .328, .370, .341 and .362.

He's the greatest player of the last 20 years. But I'd hesitate to dub him the "greatest" of all time.

Take out those 4 years and all you did was certify my position of Walker being the best OF of the last 20 years.

Thanks for making my work on that easy.

Walker did everything Bonds did.......better (Bonds did steal a few more bases). Only Bonds had to hit the needle and exotic lotions. History will not forget that about Bonds.

rozy wrote:Take out those 4 years and all you did was certify my position of Walker being the best OF of the last 20 years.

Thanks for making my work on that easy.

Walker did everything Bonds did.......better (Bonds did steal a few more bases). Only Bonds had to hit the needle and exotic lotions. History will not forget that about Bonds.

Walker had 6 great hitting years. Aside from those years (all in Coors Canaveral) he was a good (not great) hitter. Bonds didn't steal a few more, he stole twice as many. And Bonds power numbers, even before the freakish 73 HR season blow Walker's away. I will give Walker the nod with the glove (by a mile) and hitting for average (by a little bit).

IMO, the best total package in the outfield I have seen in the past 20 years is Vlad Guerrero. If he just keeps his head on straight and stays healthy he has a chance to hit well over 500 HRs, drive in 1600+ and win a couple more MVP awards. Oh, and he's an absolute freak in the field with a cannon of an arm..

BSmack wrote:IMO, the best total package in the outfield I have seen in the past 20 years is Vlad Guerrero. If he just keeps his head on straight and stays healthy he has a chance to hit well over 500 HRs, drive in 1600+ and win a couple more MVP awards. Oh, and he's an absolute freak in the field with a cannon of an arm..

On that, we agree.

But he's chasing Walker not Bonds. :P