Where does the GOP go from here?

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smackaholic
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Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by smackaholic »

So much for compassionate conservatism.

We got the compassion part which helped run the debt through the roof and alienated real conservatives. And we got lip service about cultural conservatism which kept the libs away in droves.

So what next?

mvscal mentioned something about goldwater type conservatism. I believe that means actual fiscal conservatism along with a mind your own fukkin' bidness policy regarding social issues.

I think this could work.

What we need, imo, is a libertarian platform minus the head in the sand foreign policy.

Basically, we need to just look at the last 100 years or so and figure out what works and what don't.

Big gubmint social meddling has resulted in a skyrocketing divorce rate and destruction of the family structure, particularly with black folks. So lets shit can it.

Prohibiting alcohol was a disaster. The same is true with the "war on drugs". End it. Wanna be a heroin addict. Fine. Maybe this is just the spark chuck D needs to get back into the starting rotation.

As for the abortion issue, here is how I would handle it. Take it away from the SC. They had no bidness there in the first place. The way to do this is by constitutional amendment. FInd a middle ground position that will satisfy as many as possible such as making abortion legal till the fetus is viable. You want to evict it afterwards? Fine. We got something called a C section where we can do it. Partial birth abortion would be treated as what it is.....murder.

This would remove the whole litmus test bullshit concerning new court appointments and maybe the fed gubmint can get back to impotent matters like.......who's juicing in MLB. :meds: :meds: :meds:

Another area they need to hit hard is tax system complexity. Keep some "progressiveness" but simplify the fukking thing. It will mean countless cpas and lawyers having to find honest work, but, I think they can do it.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Cuda »

the GOP should go the way of the Whigs

The time to start building a new party is just after an election, not just before one.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Rasputin »

Just kick back and relax. Now that Pelosi and Reid (and the other guy) are in charge, they'll overreach and fuck things up so bad there'll be a GOP majority in two years. Again. And then...

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Terry in Crapchester »

smackaholic wrote:As for the abortion issue, here is how I would handle it. Take it away from the SC. They had no bidness there in the first place. The way to do this is by constitutional amendment. FInd a middle ground position that will satisfy as many as possible such as making abortion legal till the fetus is viable. You want to evict it afterwards? Fine. We got something called a C section where we can do it. Partial birth abortion would be treated as what it is.....murder.
Not a chance in hell this will happen. Abortion has been far too effective a wedge issue for the Republican Party for them to abandon it. The status quo suits them just fine.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by PSUFAN »

Midterms will be big for the GOP.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by L45B »

I don't frequent the politico forum much, but I will admit that the one thing that has routinely turned me off to the Republican Party is how they push social issues. Nothing more annoying than a bunch of Jeezus freaks trying to convert everyone else.

Give me somebody who is fiscally conservative and doesn't tell me what morals or which god I should believe in, and I will vote for them. Any of you right-wingers got a face to put with the job description?
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Tom In VA »

RACK mvscal err .... Goldwater.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by smackaholic »

Terry in Crapchester wrote:
smackaholic wrote:As for the abortion issue, here is how I would handle it. Take it away from the SC. They had no bidness there in the first place. The way to do this is by constitutional amendment. FInd a middle ground position that will satisfy as many as possible such as making abortion legal till the fetus is viable. You want to evict it afterwards? Fine. We got something called a C section where we can do it. Partial birth abortion would be treated as what it is.....murder.
Not a chance in hell this will happen. Abortion has been far too effective a wedge issue for the Republican Party for them to abandon it. The status quo suits them just fine.
Bullshit. Status quo fits them fine? Did you watch any news in the past 24 hrs. Incase you didn't, the reps got their asses handed to them.

Abortion has been an effective wedge issue......for the dems. There are a hell of a lot of people out there that are fiscally conservative, but, will follow the dems for this one topic.

Are there cases of the opposite?

Yeah, but, I doubt as many.

Take abortion off the table and somebody like rudy would buttfukk obama in the mouf, imo.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Adelpiero »

get out of bed with the religious right

it's killing the party, fucking pandering to the right wing religious kooks.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Cuda »

mvscal wrote:
smackaholic wrote:mvscal mentioned something about goldwater type conservatism. I believe that means actual fiscal conservatism along with a mind your own fukkin' bidness policy regarding social issues.

I think this could work.
Some quotes from the man.

“I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution, or that have failed in their purpose, or that impose on the people an unwarranted financial burden. I will not attempt to discover whether legislation is “needed” before I have first determined whether it is constitutionally permissible. And if I should later be attacked for neglecting my constituents “interest”, I shall reply that I was informed their main interest is liberty and that in that cause I am doing the very best I can.”


"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!"

I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in "A," "B," "C" and "D." Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism."
This kind of talk will never fly again in the GOP- even if it means never holding the majority again. Too many get-along, go-along types
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by BSmack »

smackaholic wrote:Take abortion off the table and somebody like rudy would buttfukk obama in the mouf, imo.
Have I not gotten though to you? Rudy could blow up an abortion clinic on pay per view and he still wouldn't get the Republican nomination. If you think that's the only area Rudy was socially liberal while he was mayor of NY, then you are horribly uninformed.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Left Seater »

The GOP will be fine. We as a country seem to over correct and this is likely one of those times. We did it with Newt and we will move back to the middle ground next mid-term elections.

Having control of both Chambers and the White House is not the best for our country in my opinion. Now I am not going to vote to make it so, but is the case.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by smackaholic »

BSmack wrote:
smackaholic wrote:Take abortion off the table and somebody like rudy would buttfukk obama in the mouf, imo.
Have I not gotten though to you? Rudy could blow up an abortion clinic on pay per view and he still wouldn't get the Republican nomination. If you think that's the only area Rudy was socially liberal while he was mayor of NY, then you are horribly uninformed.
Maybe not the only issue, but, it is THE issue. get it the fukk off the table with an amendment and it would be interesting to see what happens.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Rasputin »

smackaholic wrote:
BSmack wrote:
smackaholic wrote:Take abortion off the table and somebody like rudy would buttfukk obama in the mouf, imo.
Have I not gotten though to you? Rudy could blow up an abortion clinic on pay per view and he still wouldn't get the Republican nomination. If you think that's the only area Rudy was socially liberal while he was mayor of NY, then you are horribly uninformed.
Maybe not the only issue, but, it is THE issue. get it the fukk off the table with an amendment and it would be interesting to see what happens.
Not a chance. With the Party of Pelosi in full charge and the Obamanation likely to appoint 3 or 4 judicial activists to the SC, the best chance to send this back to the states is gone.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

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Left Seater wrote:The GOP will be fine. We as a country seem to over correct and this is likely one of those times. We did it with Newt and we will move back to the middle ground next mid-term elections.

Having control of both Chambers and the White House is not the best for our country in my opinion. Now I am not going to vote to make it so, but is the case.
Once the Southwest and Upper Midwest become solidly blue, you can look forward to a long stretch of GOP irrelevance. The GOP was a favorite son away from losing Arizona this time. Next time AZ will vote Democratic. The same goes for Montana and the Dakotas. The only thing the GOP had against Obama this time around was fear of Obama's inexperience. Presuming the economy is better in 4 years (can it possibly get much worse?) you can bank on a 400+ electoral vote landslide.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Rasputin »

BSmack wrote:Presuming the economy is better in 4 years (can it possibly get much worse?)...
So how much has the market fallen in the last two days? Once he's actually in office, bring an umbrella.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Tom In VA »

BSmack wrote:Presuming the economy is better in 4 years (can it possibly get much worse?)
Yes it can. And it still might. But I doubt it.

I think you are 100% right in your prediction. I think it's ashame that it will be that way, but I think you're absolutely correct.

My eyes once again look towards Rahm Emanuel. NAFTA - is a North American Union that far behind ?
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by BSmack »

Tom In VA wrote:
BSmack wrote:Presuming the economy is better in 4 years (can it possibly get much worse?)
Yes it can. And it still might. But I doubt it.

I think you are 100% right in your prediction. I think it's ashame that it will be that way, but I think you're absolutely correct.

My eyes once again look towards Rahm Emanuel. NAFTA - is a North American Union that far behind ?
A North American Union would be seen as an American attempt to consolidate regional hegemony. However, a Pan American Union on a limited scale has some merit. Long term I believe the EU model is the only way to have truly fair trade. You have to have all member states conform to a uniform code regarding wages, workplace conditions and environmental regulations. Otherwise you get the clusterfuck that is NAFTA.

Yet another lesson from the 90s that I am hoping progressives have learned from.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Left Seater »

blah, blah, blah. After Bush beat Gore we heard how it was going to be years before the Dems were back. Same thing after Newt. Of course that was incorrect, and so are those claiming the demise of the GOP. We overcorrected, as history shows we often do, and soon will be back to a more middle ground.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

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Left Seater wrote: Of course that was incorrect, and so are those claiming the demise of the GOP.
you just love crushing people's hopes, don't you?
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by KC Scott »

smackaholic wrote:So much for compassionate conservatism.

We got the compassion part which helped run the debt through the roof and alienated real conservatives. And we got lip service about cultural conservatism which kept the libs away in droves.

So what next?

mvscal mentioned something about goldwater type conservatism. I believe that means actual fiscal conservatism along with a mind your own fukkin' bidness policy regarding social issues.

I think this could work.

What we need, imo, is a libertarian platform minus the head in the sand foreign policy.

Basically, we need to just look at the last 100 years or so and figure out what works and what don't.

Big gubmint social meddling has resulted in a skyrocketing divorce rate and destruction of the family structure, particularly with black folks. So lets shit can it.

Prohibiting alcohol was a disaster. The same is true with the "war on drugs". End it. Wanna be a heroin addict. Fine. Maybe this is just the spark chuck D needs to get back into the starting rotation.

As for the abortion issue, here is how I would handle it. Take it away from the SC. They had no bidness there in the first place. The way to do this is by constitutional amendment. FInd a middle ground position that will satisfy as many as possible such as making abortion legal till the fetus is viable. You want to evict it afterwards? Fine. We got something called a C section where we can do it. Partial birth abortion would be treated as what it is.....murder.

This would remove the whole litmus test bullshit concerning new court appointments and maybe the fed gubmint can get back to impotent matters like.......who's juicing in MLB. :meds: :meds: :meds:

Another area they need to hit hard is tax system complexity. Keep some "progressiveness" but simplify the fukking thing. It will mean countless cpas and lawyers having to find honest work, but, I think they can do it.

Spot on

Adel hit the nail too - Get outta bed with the American Taliban

Fiscal Conservative - Social Moderate - Secular Government

I'd tell everyone else to go to Hell except there isn't one
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Tom In VA »

BSmack wrote:You have to have all member states conform
There it is. I don't know what to say. Are these New World Order types onto something then ? I mean obviously there are, I guess the question remains whether or not it's something like the bogeyman they portray it as being.

The problem I have with "Progressives" is number one they are arrogant enough to think their way is the only way to progress, they stole a name. Very adept at marketing.

Number two, there too close lipped OR they don't know what it is we're progressing towards - long term. Where we're headed, what's going to "change" what are pros, the cons, the risks ?

Wow.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Left Seater »

Cuda wrote: you just love crushing people's hopes, don't you?

Na, quite the opposite really. I have and will continue to go out of my way to building up others and lending whatever assistance I can. However, those on the fringe on both sides are so out of touch it is sad really.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Shlomart Ben Yisrael »

Tom In VA wrote: The problem I have with "Progressives" is number one they are arrogant enough to think their way is the only way to progress, they stole a name. Very adept at marketing.

You mean like Trotskyite "Neo-Conservatives"?
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Shlomart Ben Yisrael »

mvscal wrote: All the more ironic that so called Progessives spurned Chimpus Magnus so violently when he was one of them the whole time.
I'll go one further...

...that's American Jewish popular/cultural/media for ya'...

Nary a fucking peep during the invasion of Iraq, but when things seemed to go all shitty, guess who's voices were loudest in calling for impeachment?

You're in bed with snakes, folks.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by BSmack »

Martyred wrote:
mvscal wrote: All the more ironic that so called Progessives spurned Chimpus Magnus so violently when he was one of them the whole time.
I'll go one further...

...that's American Jewish popular/cultural/media for ya'...

Nary a fucking peep during the invasion of Iraq, but when things seemed to go all shitty, guess who's voices were loudest in calling for impeachment?

You're in bed with snakes, folks.
Herr Goebbels would be proud of you Marty.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by KC Scott »

mvscal wrote:. I, for one, welcome our new Hebrew overlords.

[/tinfoilhat]
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Tom In VA »

mvscal wrote: Not a bad gig, if you can get it. I'm considering nose enhancement surgery and getting a perm. I, for one, welcome our new Hebrew overlords.
:lol:
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Shlomart Ben Yisrael »

mvscal wrote:
Martyred wrote:Nary a fucking peep during the invasion of Iraq, but when things seemed to go all shitty, guess who's voices were loudest in calling for impeachment?

You're in bed with snakes, folks.
Rubbish. They didn't call for impeachment when things went shitty. They called for a 700 billion dollar bailout no questions asked....and Congress shit itself in its haste to give it to them.

Not a bad gig, if you can get it. I'm considering nose enhancement surgery and getting a perm. I, for one, welcome our new Hebrew overlords.
Well............I stand corrected.

Hey, when I'm wrong, I'm wrong. What can I say?
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Cuda »

mvscal wrote: I'm considering nose enhancement surgery and getting a perm. I, for one, welcome our new Hebrew overlords.
rack it.

i got a new sig
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Shlomart Ben Yisrael »

mvscal wrote: Tinfoil? High quality tinfoil? How much, goi?

Image

Don't buy from this guy, mv.

His brother Shuli can get tin foil hats for you at wholesale price. Oy, the prices!
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by PSUFAN »

Chimpus Magnus
heh heh...
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Terry in Crapchester »

smackaholic wrote:Abortion has been an effective wedge issue......for the dems. There are a hell of a lot of people out there that are fiscally conservative, but, will follow the dems for this one topic.

Are there cases of the opposite?

Yeah, but, I doubt as many.
Two words for you: Catholic vote. Used to be solidly Democratic, as in about 70% or so. Now? Not so much. Ya think abortion has anything to do with that?

And we're not exactly talking about a fringe group here. Catholics are what, roughly 30% of the U.S. population, and they generally turn out for elections in larger percentages than the overall public. A swing of as little as 20% of the Catholic vote is enough to change the outcome of an election in a huge way.

As for the return to a Goldwater-esque platform, need I remind you of the outcome of that particular election? There was a reason Reagan brought the Religious Right onboard: he guessed, probably correctly, that he couldn't win a general election with only the Goldwater coalition.

Yeah, it's a much different world now than it was in '64, but many of the changes that have occurred since that time work against a presumption that a Goldwater-type coalition would be more successful today than it was in '64.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Rasputin »

Terry in Crapchester wrote:
smackaholic wrote:Abortion has been an effective wedge issue......for the dems. There are a hell of a lot of people out there that are fiscally conservative, but, will follow the dems for this one topic.

Are there cases of the opposite?

Yeah, but, I doubt as many.
Two words for you: Catholic vote. Used to be solidly Democratic, as in about 70% or so. Now? Not so much. Ya think abortion has anything to do with that?

And we're not exactly talking about a fringe group here. Catholics are what, roughly 30% of the U.S. population, and they generally turn out for elections in larger percentages than the overall public. A swing of as little as 20% of the Catholic vote is enough to change the outcome of an election in a huge way.

As for the return to a Goldwater-esque platform, need I remind you of the outcome of that particular election? There was a reason Reagan brought the Religious Right onboard: he guessed, probably correctly, that he couldn't win a general election with only the Goldwater coalition.

Yeah, it's a much different world now than it was in '64, but many of the changes that have occurred since that time work against a presumption that a Goldwater-type coalition would be more successful today than it was in '64.

A) Goldwater lost because of Oswald. Period. Why do you think JFK was in Dallas? He was in trouble re-electionwise, if he hadn't been shot he would have lost.
B) The Catholic vote started going to the GOP in '72 because of the McGovern rules.
C) Don't be too quick to bury the GOP. Your guy needed a wildly unpopular incumbent, an incompetent opposition campaign, a candidate that turned off a large segment of the primary voters and a perfectly timed economic downturn to win.

If he believes this is a 'mandate' for turning tail in the WOT and enacting the entire spectrum of leftist dogma, he'll be as sucessful as Carter, and his presidency will last exactly as long. And if he doesn't, his base is going to have a coronary.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by smackaholic »

Terry in Crapchester wrote:[

Two words for you: Catholic vote. Used to be solidly Democratic, as in about 70% or so. Now? Not so much. Ya think abortion has anything to do with that?
bullshit. catholics are famously apathetic to church dogma. that 70% might have dropped a few points for various reasons, but, I'll bet that a good chunk of them are still on the dem side for it's "pro choice" stance.

as for goldwater losing, see the above explanation. a bullet or two in the dome will do wonders for someones approval ratings.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Rasputin »

“The lamps are going out all over America; we shall not see them lit again in our lifetime”

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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

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Rasputin wrote:[A) Goldwater lost because of Oswald. Period. Why do you think JFK was in Dallas? He was in trouble re-electionwise, if he hadn't been shot he would have lost.
Not to take this off-topic, but Oswald?

More relevant to your point, Goldwater carried only his home state, Arizona, plus a handful of Southern states. Not to mention that the Democratic candidate was LBJ, not JFK; LBJ and JFK had clashed rather famously on more than one occasion during JFK's Presidency; and that the member of JFK's Cabinet who was closest to him had defected from LBJ's Cabinet to run for the Senate. But even so, LBJ won solely because JFK was assassinated?

Not saying that the assassination didn't help LBJ, but if you think that's the only reason he won . . . wow. Just wow.
B) The Catholic vote started going to the GOP in '72 because of the McGovern rules.
Lemme see if I've got this one straight. You're saying that Catholics began to defect to the GOP because of some internal Democratic Party rules relative to the selection of a Presidential nominee? Again, wow, just wow.

Of course, Roe v. Wade also came out in '72.
C) Don't be too quick to bury the GOP. Your guy needed a wildly unpopular incumbent, an incompetent opposition campaign, a candidate that turned off a large segment of the primary voters and a perfectly timed economic downturn to win.

If he believes this is a 'mandate' for turning tail in the WOT and enacting the entire spectrum of leftist dogma, he'll be as sucessful as Carter, and his presidency will last exactly as long. And if he doesn't, his base is going to have a coronary.
I haven't buried the GOP, although it appears to be a victim of its own excess, at least at the moment. Of course, you don't see it that way.

As for Obama, a little history lesson here.

Ronald Reagan won in '80 because the American public was so disillusioned with Jimmy Carter, not because it was enamored with Reagan's ideas. As a matter of fact, many in Reagan's own party still thought he was a far-right extremist in '80. But credit where it's due: Reagan single-handedly changed the terms of the political debate in this country.

Not saying that Obama will do it, but I think he has the potential. In fact, I would say he has more potential in this regard than I would've said about Reagan at the same point in time in 1980.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

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Terry in Crapchester wrote:
Rasputin wrote:[A) Goldwater lost because of Oswald. Period. Why do you think JFK was in Dallas? He was in trouble re-electionwise, if he hadn't been shot he would have lost.
Not to take this off-topic, but Oswald?.
LBJ's campaign theme was implicitly and explicitly one of "Help me fulfill JFK's dreams"
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Left Seater »

Terry in Crapchester wrote:
I haven't buried the GOP, although it appears to be a victim of its own excess, at least at the moment. Of course, you don't see it that way.


Ronald Reagan won in '80 because the American public was so disillusioned with Jimmy Carter, not because it was enamored with Reagan's ideas. As a matter of fact, many in Reagan's own party still thought he was a far-right extremist in '80. But credit where it's due: Reagan single-handedly changed the terms of the political debate in this country.

Not saying that Obama will do it, but I think he has the potential. In fact, I would say he has more potential in this regard than I would've said about Reagan at the same point in time in 1980.
All examples of why the GOP will continue to be just fine. I think that the Congress will move more to the GOP in the mid term elections. Our attitudes tend to work like a pendulum. We are near the widest point of the swing to the left and we are about to swing back towards the center.
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Re: Where does the GOP go from here?

Post by Cuda »

were you alive then?

feel free to fuck off then
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