T1B

Since 1992.

Clinton, draft dodger, defeated two WWII vets. One shot down, one injured.

Bush, draft dodger, defeated two Vietnam vets. (Say what you want about Gore and Kerry's service or what happened, they were there.)

Obama, no military service, defeated a Vietnam vet who was imprisioned and tortured for 5 years.

The message, it's all about what have you done for me lately and what will you do for me in the future.

I think age had more to do with it than their military service.

In the next few years I think you'll see more of an influx of former military in politics.

Last night this new breed didn't fare too well, but, it's just starting.

mvscal wrote:

Q, West Coast Style wrote:Bush, draft dodger,

Link?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dewmike/2978808805/

Joining the National Guard or reserves = draft dodging ?? Interesting concept.

Q, West Coast Style wrote:Since 1992.

Clinton, draft dodger, defeated two WWII vets. One shot down, one injured.

Bush, draft dodger, defeated two Vietnam vets. (Say what you want about Gore and Kerry's service or what happened, they were there.)

Obama, no military service, defeated a Vietnam vet who was imprisioned and tortured for 5 years.

The message, it's all about what have you done for me lately and what will you do for me in the future.

Ballsack Osama hasnt done anything but talk a lot of shit. What amazes me about the stupidity of this nation is that idiots will put more weight in what you say than what you do. If the guy makes a ton of promises to get elected as a senator and then comes through on NONE of those things and you vote for him to get a higher office, you deserve to fucked for 4 years.
He has a democratic congress and senate, if he doesnt get at least 50% of the shit he said he was going to do at least started in the next 6 months, they need to empeach his ass

SoCalTrjn wrote:Ballsack Osama hasnt done anything but talk a lot of shit. What amazes me about the stupidity of this nation is that idiots will put more weight in what you say than what you do. If the guy makes a ton of promises to get elected as a senator and then comes through on NONE of those things and you vote for him to get a higher office, you deserve to fucked for 4 years.
He has a democratic congress and senate, if he doesnt get at least 50% of the shit he said he was going to do at least started in the next 6 months, they need to empeach his ass

There should be a rule that says you can't call for someone's impeachment until you can at least learn to spell the fucking word. You probably can't even define the word impeachment without scrambling for a Google link and here you are calling for Obama to be impeached before the end of his first year in office? God damn you're a fucking tard.

Wolfman wrote:Joining the National Guard or reserves = draft dodging ?? Interesting concept.

Everyone who reads this knows that Bush signed up for the Air National Guard in order to avoid active combat.

We can draw that conclusion if we choose. But we do not KNOW. I don't know why he chose the National Guard, I wasn't there when he made the decision. Were you ? Do you have some supporting documentation that stated his motivation ? Did he write about how he "loathed" the military or something ?

PSUFAN wrote:

Wolfman wrote:Joining the National Guard or reserves = draft dodging ?? Interesting concept.

Everyone who reads this knows that Bush signed up for the Air National Guard in order to avoid active combat.

Yep. That's the same reason my uncles joined the Navy out of High School back in the 60s. It was a calculated risk they took to lower their odds of having to go hand to hand with some pajama wearing Viet Cong.

Funny thing is that my dad wanted to join, but was turned down for both the Army and the National Guard because his wife was pregnant with me. So he spent the next 30 years as a volunteer fireman.

My assumption is that he could have joined the Air Force proper.

My guess is that he didn't want active combat, because he was apparently reluctant to satisfy even the basic requirements of his Guard stint - more specifically, the basic requirements of an honorable discharge from that commitment.

BSmack wrote:Funny thing is that my dad wanted to join, but was turned down for both the Army and the National Guard because his wife was pregnant with me.

:brad: Sounds familiar. Even in today's volunteer Army they require married men to get a waiver from the wife. Then it gets into financial obligations and what not.


RACK The Volunteer Fire thing.


Pilots, specifically of jets, is a highly competitive field. Typically ringknockers and even then the top ringknockers in the Naval Academy and Air Force Academy get the primo slots. When aerial combat is on, it's even more competitive. Pilots seeking to get their "ticket punched" as having flown combat missions and what not. At least that's what I've read about officers in the Army. They need to be deployed, to a combat unit when combat is going on, or there career will stop short at some point. Look at all the Vietnam Era officers now. They pretty much all had time in country, in an Infantry Division, for the most part.

For many of those positions, you are either selected due to your record, being groomed for the future OR potentially have connections that can get you there.

Did W, or could W, have asked daddy to help him get a primo combat jet job in Vietnam ? Maybe, who is to say he didn't try but daddy said ... "Son, you're a drunken idiot, that's serious business over there learn to fly here first and show me you're responsible and I'll do what I can" ?

Could he have gotten it if he really wanted it ? Maybe. Did he avoid combat out of a sense of cowardice or ... idealogy ... ?

I don't believe so. I think he was an irresponsible, drunk, rich boy struggling to find his own niche and hadn't figured out that niche wasn't at the bottom of a bottle or lined up on some mirror yet.

If the stories of his college days and young adulthood are accurate, George Bush was too immature at the time to fly combat
missions and would have done more harm than good.

Q, West Coast Style wrote:Since 1992.

Clinton, draft dodger, defeated two WWII vets. One shot down, one injured.

Bush, draft dodger, defeated two Vietnam vets. (Say what you want about Gore and Kerry's service or what happened, they were there.)

Obama, no military service, defeated a Vietnam vet who was imprisioned and tortured for 5 years.

The message, it's all about what have you done for me lately and what will you do for me in the future.

with Barack it's more like, what have you done......ever?

titlover wrote: with Barack it's more like, what have you done......ever?

Well, he's taken down the Clinton political machine. He convinced some of their most die-hard followers to abandon them at great risk and follow him. That's something dude. No small thing either. The ability to motivate and "sell" is a strong, strong, skill and he has it down pact.

Further, he raised more money for his campaign than - anyone (?). There too, some key skills and an accomplishment.

He also convinced well over half the population that his idea of bigger government, more taxes, and "CHANGE" is ....

The way to go. The future of America.


I'm inclined to disagree with his political idealogies and economic philosophies but I see what I see. The dude has achieved a significant accomplishment at this point. I'm wary of it, but respectful of it too. The man is a force to be reckoned with.

I don't believe so. I think he was an irresponsible, drunk, rich boy struggling to find his own niche and hadn't figured out that niche wasn't at the bottom of a bottle or lined up on some mirror yet.

If the stories of his college days and young adulthood are accurate, George Bush was too immature at the time to fly combat
missions and would have done more harm than good.

I agree. That was probably true of many who were drafted into active service, some of them not returning. That's the whole point. He was afforded an opportunity to avoid active combat because of who he was.

That was true of many in that era. The sour thing is when folks try to portray his Guard service as somehow comparable to the service of John Kerry, or others.

Is it accurate to use the epithet "draft-dodger" for W? Bottom line, I think it is. He was afforded an opportunity to avoid active duty, and he took it. He barely satisfied the requirements to be discharged from that opportunity. He didn't even have to be creative in the process of dodging, but dodging it was.

PSUFAN wrote:That was true of many in that era. The sour thing is when folks try to portray his Guard service as somehow comparable to the service of John Kerry, or others.

I honestly don't recall anyone doing that. Not even me - a Bush apologist of sorts. Crap Al Gore's war record and service in Vietnam exceeded W's.

Kerry had hard duty. I don't think anyone other than those whose war record exceeded Kerry's criticized him for portraying himself as something he was not. The men on his ship respected his leadership and courage under fire. The only problem with Kerry is where is distorted his own war record and the war records of the men who fought in Vietnam. There, the same men, on the same boat, on the same river, question how it was Kerry "witnessed" what he said he "witnessed".

Tom In VA wrote: He convinced some of their most die-hard followers to abandon them at great risk and follow him. That's something dude. No small thing either.

Maybe. Maybe Not.

When a talking head like Al Gore can convince these types that the world is gonna melt, it makes what Obama did less than impressive.

mvscal wrote:

PSUFAN wrote:

Wolfman wrote:Joining the National Guard or reserves = draft dodging ?? Interesting concept.

Everyone who reads this knows that Bush signed up for the Air National Guard in order to avoid active combat.

You don't fly jets to avoid combat, dumbfuck.

You do when your Congressman daddy knows that the jets you're flying are about to be phased out.

mvscal wrote:

BSmack wrote:You do when your Congressman daddy knows that the jets you're flying are about to be phased out.

WRONG. Phased out of the regular Air Force, they were still used till the mid 70s in the ANG. They were also one of the most dangerous planes in our inventory to fly. We built 875 and lost 259 to crashes. Their accident rating was well over 3 times as high as the F-16 and higher even than the current most dangerous aircraft to fly, the AV-8.

And I'm sure that rating had nothing to do with the bottom of the barrel rich kids who were assigned to fly them.

Tom In VA wrote:I think age had more to do with it than their military service.

In the next few years I think you'll see more of an influx of former military in politics.

Last night this new breed didn't fare too well, but, it's just starting.

Age definitely has more to do with it. There's a generation shift happening right now, and there's a pretty huge generation divide in ideology between the old guard and the new guard. It probably shows up the largest in what is socially acceptable, in terms of race, sexual orientation, religion and such.

The fact that a black man, running as a liberal, pulled this off right now, is a very bad sign for the current older generation, or anyone that shares their hardline values. Things are only going to get worse for that point of view going forward.

Texas was only a 55-44 McCain win on Tuesday. The hispanic population is exploding into that state with no signs of stopping anytime soon. It will be a swing state by 2016.

PSUFAN wrote:My assumption is that he could have joined the Air Force proper.

There was a shorter waiting list to get into the Guard. Which he joined because his dad was a pilot and he wanted to follow his example.

Tom In VA wrote:

titlover wrote: Further, he raised more money for his campaign than - anyone (?). There too, some key skills and an accomplishment.

He did this by removing the security features which verify the identities of his contributers. $3000 (or whatever it is) maximum contribution per person?

At a time, maybe.

Rasputin wrote:

PSUFAN wrote:My assumption is that he could have joined the Air Force proper.

There was a shorter waiting list to get into the Guard. Which he joined because his dad was a pilot and he wanted to follow his example.

Awww, baloney. If W was so driven to be a pilot, then why was it so difficult to get him to honor the terms of his commitment to the Air National Guard?

I'm sure a lot of the cannon fodder had dreams of piloting as well. How many guys who were blown to hamburger in Viet Nam would have chosen the path W took through the war years?

Presenting W as having just missed active duty is a rotten lie - and it cheapens the sacrifice made by thousands who DID serve and lose their lives in that conflict. I'm really at a loss to understand why you would do that.

PSUFAN wrote:

Rasputin wrote:

PSUFAN wrote:My assumption is that he could have joined the Air Force proper.

There was a shorter waiting list to get into the Guard. Which he joined because his dad was a pilot and he wanted to follow his example.

Awww, baloney. If W was so driven to be a pilot, then why was it so difficult to get him to honor the terms of his commitment to the Air National Guard?

I'm sure a lot of the cannon fodder had dreams of piloting as well. How many guys who were blown to hamburger in Viet Nam would have chosen the path W took through the war years?

Presenting W as having just missed active duty is a rotten lie - and it cheapens the sacrifice made by thousands who DID serve and lose their lives in that conflict. I'm really at a loss to understand why you would do that.

The fact is he did volunteer and serve. Does the fact that he never saw combat cheapen that? I doubt that he knew when he signed up exactly when the war was going to end.

JayDuck wrote: Age definitely has more to do with it. There's a generation shift happening right now, and there's a pretty huge generation divide in ideology between the old guard and the new guard. It probably shows up the largest in what is socially acceptable, in terms of race, sexual orientation, religion and such.

The fact that a black man, running as a liberal, pulled this off right now, is a very bad sign for the current older generation, or anyone that shares their hardline values. Things are only going to get worse for that point of view going forward.

Texas was only a 55-44 McCain win on Tuesday. The hispanic population is exploding into that state with no signs of stopping anytime soon. It will be a swing state by 2016.

That appears to be the current landscape. Marxists, quite brilliantly, "captitalized" on several key vulnerabilities in this country and for decades have embraced those who felt "shunned". Minorities, sexual progressives, and the "Big Tent" strategy is no secret. Further their propaganda and misinformation campaign was / is more effective apparently. The education system at this point from K-Ph. D is largely populated by "left leaning" people if not out and out Marxist radicals (Ayers for instance).

Conservatives at this point, need to look around their AO and realize, we've been over-run. In the end, it's competing idealogies as far economics is concerned, in my opinon. The social issues are fat. In order to come back the conservative and those trying to adhere to a strict interpretation of the constitution need to get lean. This means, construct a bigger tent. Issues like abortion, "God", - hell even burning the flag - need to be put to the wayside and a return to back to basics, as mvscal said ... "Goldwater Conservatism".

The problem is, many of those seem to be in the minority, look at what happened to Ron Paul.

I'm really tempted to lean towards this wave of non-nationalistic, socialist "NWO" tsunami that people have been screaming about. The landscape sure does look an awful lot like that's what is on the way.

But as always, money talks and bullshit walks. And to quote Gordon Gecko ... "Greed is good". Obama spent more money on this campaign than any in recent history. And at the grass roots level, he's already leaving a little bit of a legacy of not "paying the bill".

http://www.wthr.com/global/story.asp?s=9299280

Indianapolis - Lines were long and tempers flared Wednesday not to vote but to get paid for canvassing for Barack Obama. Several hundred people are still waiting to get their pay for last-minute campaigning. Police were called to the Obama campaign office on North Meridian Street downtown to control the crowd.

The line was long and the crowd was angry at times.

"I want my money today! It's my money. I want it right now!" yelled one former campaign worker.

That might be the saving the grace of conservatism. Appealing to that.

That dumbass Murtha keeps getting re-elected....even after calling his constituents racists....what a smart bunch they are....

The dumbfucks in the Murtha situation are the GOP folks that cannot defeat him. Memo - might want to pick someone who actually LIVES IN THE GODDAMN DISTRICT. The guy they threw at Mutha doesn't know the first goddamn thing about the district.

2-3...or even 10 dumb utterances from Murtha are not enough to unseat him in the minds of his constituents, because they know that he has been a good rep for them over decades. His ACTIONS have spoken for him - resoundingly.

Yeah, folks in Johnstown might be racist, redneck, and whatever...but they are smart enough to know when they are being played.

PSUFAN wrote:The dumbfucks in the Murtha situation are the GOP folks that cannot defeat him.

Either that or Pennsylvanian's are generally stupid. They did help elect a guy who called them bitter losers who cling to guns and religion.

Again...a few stupid remarks were not enough to change the important considerations in this election.

PA is not a swing state. It is a core Democrat state. McCain's campaign focused heavily on winning PA in the final weeks...that was a desperate end gambit, a real reach. It showed exactly what they thought of their prospects as the election wore down...not much.

PSUFAN wrote:PA is not a swing state. It is a core Democrat state.

That's pretty much what I said.

Either that or Pennsylvanian's are generally stupid.

But I'm not picking on you guys, my comments go double for Kali.

PSUFAN wrote: PA is not a swing state. It is a core Democrat state. McCain's campaign focused heavily on winning PA in the final weeks...

Had McCain picked Ridge as his running mate, would that have made enough difference to get over?

I know he couldn't because Ridges' stance on abortion wouldn't fly with conservatives, but just wondering...

Ridge clearly felt like he himself would have been a better choice. Probably not, though...1) abortion, and 2)skeletons in the closet (which I have repeatedly heard referenced, but never defined) prevent him from being a national candidate.

PSU,

Question. Take a young man in college at the time of the early Nam war. He joins ROTC on campus and chooses to study Geology as a major, specifically exploration. He chooses the major because he knows that exploration geologists are in short supply and few if any are being drafted. Further he joins ROTC to become an officer in case he is drafted and then will have more of a choice in where he might serve. Is this person a dodger?

JayDuck wrote:
Age definitely has more to do with it. There's a generation shift happening right now, and there's a pretty huge generation divide in ideology between the old guard and the new guard...

Texas was only a 55-44 McCain win on Tuesday. The hispanic population is exploding into that state with no signs of stopping anytime soon. It will be a swing state by 2016.

So is it an age thing or a race thing? You are correct in that Texas went for McCain by only 11 points, but incorrect in trying to tie it to the growing hispanic population. If Hispanics make the difference, then Nueces county would have gone to the Dems, but it didn't. That county is majority hispanic by far. Plus many hispanics in this area supported McCain. Case in point is the guy who maintains our landscape and those of our neighbors. He had a McCain sticker on his truck and thought Obama was a threat to his business. Further, many of us in Texas didn't like McCain all that much either, and at best viewed him as the lesser of two evils. That my friend is more reason why the number wasn't larger.

So what happens in 4 years when this record number of new voters doesn't get any money back from Obama?

Left Seater wrote:
So is it an age thing or a race thing? You are correct in that Texas went for McCain by only 11 points, but incorrect in trying to tie it to the growing hispanic population. If Hispanics make the difference, then Nueces county would have gone to the Dems, but it didn't. That county is majority hispanic by far. Plus many hispanics in this area supported McCain. Case in point is the guy who maintains our landscape and those of our neighbors. He had a McCain sticker on his truck and thought Obama was a threat to his business. Further, many of us in Texas didn't like McCain all that much either, and at best viewed him as the lesser of two evils. That my friend is more reason why the number wasn't larger.

Its a generational thing, but race of course plays a factor. In spite of the anecdotal evidence about your weed puller, 63% of hispanics in Texas voted for Obama. And I think its safe to say that the majority of the growing Hispanic population aren't going to be making anywhere remotely in the ballpark of 250,000, or 200,000, or even 150,000 or whatever the number is.

And this was vs. a Republican who was notoriously, and openly, soft on illegal immigration to the point of the distain of his own party. With an exponentially increasing hispanic population, its going to get increasingly more difficult for the GOP to lock down texas in the coming elections. Unless they want to become the "soft on immigration" party, that the Democrats have been pegged as.

Left Seater wrote: So what happens in 4 years when this record number of new voters doesn't get any money back from Obama?

On the other hand, what happens when 4 more years of the elderly, who were the group most opposed to Obama, die off and are replaced by another 4 years of young voters coming of age?

As somebody pointed out earlier on the board somewhere, if the economy isn't worse than it is right now, its going to be hard for Obama to lose the next election. The argument against him was mostly made that he was inexperienced, dangerous and people should be afraid of him.

Its going to be hard to make those same arguments again, after he's been president for 4 years.

If he does a decent job, and if the economy begins to recover at all, he'll get re-elected.

Left Seater wrote:PSU,

Question. Take a young man in college at the time of the early Nam war. He joins ROTC on campus and chooses to study Geology as a major, specifically exploration. He chooses the major because he knows that exploration geologists are in short supply and few if any are being drafted. Further he joins ROTC to become an officer in case he is drafted and then will have more of a choice in where he might serve. Is this person a dodger?

Not in my book. Is there any way to compare such a path with that taken by W?

If W had been more ultimately willing to fulfill the obligations of his commitment to the Air National Guard, I would not use the epithet "dodger" in his case. From what I have read, his actual willingness is very much in question.

what happens in 4 years when this record number of new voters doesn't get any money back from Obama?

I don't think we have any reason to assume that most of these new voters expect a boatload of entitlements to be sent to them via Obama. Some of them might, perhaps, but perhaps some of them are just beginning their participation in the political process, one that will result in their greater understanding and further productive participation.

mvscal wrote: He did fulfill his obligations. The Army National Guard might have been considered a safe haven, but not the ANG. This was at the height of the Cold War. Air defense over CONUS was a serious mission.

I guess every American at that time was living in a "war zone".

Must have been chilling. T&P.

Martyred wrote:

mvscal wrote: He did fulfill his obligations. The Army National Guard might have been considered a safe haven, but not the ANG. This was at the height of the Cold War. Air defense over CONUS was a serious mission.

I guess every American at that time was living in a "war zone".

Must have been chilling. T&P.

In some areas, I know around here, @1963-1967 at least, they had fire drills and they also had bomb drills. The standard rule was when the air raid siren sounded you got down, got under your desk, put your head between your legs and kiss your ass good-bye.

My grandfather's job - he worked for the joint chiefs - was to assess overall damage and cost throughout the U.S. should a full scale nuclear war take place.

So yeah, it was pretty chilling according to them Marty. I figure they lived through it, so they would know.

Tom In VA wrote:In some areas, I know around here, @1963-1967 at least, they had fire drills and they also had bomb drills. The standard rule was when the air raid siren sounded you got down, got under your desk, put your head between your legs and kiss your ass good-bye.

My grandfather's job - he worked for the joint chiefs - was to assess overall damage and cost throughout the U.S. should a full scale nuclear war take place.

So yeah, it was pretty chilling according to them Marty. I figure they lived through it, so they would know.

We did bomb drills my first few years of elementary school. We were in this 1930s WPA vintage brick building that would have certainly been blown to kingdom come during a real nuclear attack. But hey, the bomb drills were all about making you SCARED, not about saving your ASS.

I'm honored to see that by mvscal's logic I am a veteran of that conflict. In honor of my service I will become addicted to painkillers and start spewing racist rants on message boards. Hey, I need to start bonding with my fellow vets.

PSUFAN wrote:...some of them are just beginning their participation in the political process, one that will result in their greater understanding and further productive participation.

After a couple years of these dipshits being in charge, they should understand what a fuckup they made and participate in putting the grown-ups back into Congress.