A New Union

[poptart]

Paul, speaking to the believers in Ephesus --

Ephesians 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ


God has blessed all believers with ... spiritual ... blessings.

It's not at all uncommon to hear people say that they are blessed because of things such as ...

job
kids doing well
material gains
etc., x so many

And of course these things might be blessings.
Then again, they are surely not necessarily.
"Gains" that we see with our eyes can in fact bring more hardship and suffering.
A person needs to be a "correct" person.

The standard is not what we see, because the standard is, according to Scripture, that ABSOLUTELY, believers have been blessed with ... spiritual ... blessings.

Joseph, for just one example, was sold into slavery in Egypt.
And yet he realized that God was with him and that God's important plan was within the difficult circumstances that he found himself in.

He was blessed spiritually, and he knew this.

Both Moses and Abraham were called by God, and yet they continued to face suffering and hardship until they came to their senses and laid everything down to find out why God had called them.



In Genesis 3:1-6, we see that man was deceived into leaving Creator God.
Man, who was created to live in union with God, instead became united with the evil one.

And this union with darkness has surely passed to all mankind -- Romans 3:23, Romans 5:12

And it is such that people are, by very nature, children of wrath.

Ephesians 2:2-3
2: Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

This wrath is described in Genesis 3:16-20.

People have no choice but to have this overwhelming difficulty come to them.
And the "blessings of their life" that they cling to don't do diddly squat for them.
They fail, and eternally.
Inevitably.
Because we are, by nature, children of wrath.
We are aligned with satan.


But of course God did not leave it this way for us.

He gave the promise of the Christ -- Genesis 3:15.
And He fulfilled this promise.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Those who simply hold to God's covenant and trust in Christ have restored their correct union and have been blessed by God in the ... spiritual and eternal ... realm.


Nothing can be a problem.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

What if God wanted you to be a wandering free spirited atheist making your own decisions...
...and Scripture was the temptation He laid out full of falsehoods to test you?


You have no answer to this.

[ppanther]

And of course these things might be blessings.
Then again, they are surely not necessarily.

I find this very interesting, because it's something my husband and I discussed before.

He went to Ukraine with Joni and Friends, to distribute wheelchairs to disabled people who could never afford to buy them. He saw intense poverty. One example that sticks out in my mind was a person who could not walk, who lived on the 10th floor of a very poorly-built apartment building. There was no elevator (or none that worked, anyway), so even with a wheelchair, he was confined to his home. Every other Sunday, members of his church would come in the church van and pick him up. They would walk up and carry him down, and then bring him back when the service was over. And it wasn't just this man. That particular church has a very large ministry for the disabled, and the reason they picked him up every other Sunday was because they also picked up so many other people. They had to stagger the weeks, or it would have been impossible.

The goodness in these people was not limited to a ride to church, either. They befriended people who would have been completely isolated otherwise. They brought them food when they could. They took care of people who couldn't care for themselves.

I'm not saying this doesn't happen here -- surely it does, here and there. But my husband was struck by how much more often people were willing to show that kind of love to others over there. These were poor people doing everything they could for others. There was an openness about it there that is often very much lacking here. They knew how to love each other. I don't know if I'm getting this across properly, because it was really profound, the way he talked about the love he saw when he was there. The discussion pretty much culminated with us wondering just how blessed we really are. We have so much -- even if we think we're not rich. Our standards? Our perfectly good car isn't brand new any more. Our home needs one more bedroom. I need new clothes, because jeans are being cut differently this year. Theirs? Not the same. We sometimes have too much to know we still need God. (If you don't believe in God and you're reading this, save the debate -- you won't change my mind about needing God.) They aren't so "burdened"...

Sometimes, when I think of it that way, I don't feel as blessed as those poverty-stricken Ukrainians. I'm not saying I want to give up my comforts. I just have to realize they can be good (allowing my husband to help some of the disabled in Ukraine, for instance), but they can also be a terrible distraction.

Hopefully this didn't get too off-topic.

[poptart]

Don't worry, if we stray, Felix will come in and get us back on topic. haha

It's a good and interesting post, ppanther.

Sometimes, when I think of it that way, I don't feel as blessed as those poverty-stricken Ukrainians.

In the sermon on the mount, recorded in Matthew 5, we see Jesus say this --

Matthew 5:3
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

The point, as I take it, is that being rich or poor is not the issue.
Yes, the poor can be blessed ... in spirit (as noted in Ephesians 1:3)
The spiritual realm is where all believer ARE blessed.

What we see with our eyes deceive us, and what we think or view as blessings are not necessarily so.
We get tangled up in these things and SO easily take our eye off the ball, so to speak -- which is Christ.

In some ways it is MUCH easier for a poor person to keep his eye on the ball because he doesn't have anything else to look at.

That is the point, I think, that Jesus was making in Matthew 5:3.

We must be correct people, and then rich, poor, or just "ok" ... doesn't matter.

American "prosperity" is, in many ways, a curse, imo, because people have created their own towers of babel.

We know how that works out.

[Felix]

Don't worry, if we stray, Felix will come in and get us back on topic. haha

not trying to divert you from your preaching tart, but here's a guy that I periodically correspond with, and he can better sum up pretty much what I think of religion in general...it's his response to some questions asked by another youtuber

he's a pretty smart cat, and actually funny as hell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzBE3LNmKK8

carry on

[poptart]

I don't think much of religion, either, Felix.

Religion is a creation of man and it has nothing to do with the Gospel.

Those gathered in Mark's upper room knew that Jesus had risen and that He was in fact the Christ.
And so they went about sharing this CRITICALLY important message to all the world.
Beivers then gathered in different locations to share, praise, hear the Word, pray, and evangelize.
These were "Churches," of sort.

Over time, the simple message of the Gospel that these folks had to share with people, to bring them out of their spiritual oppression, became blended with human ideologies.

A.D. Christian "Religion" began.

As of today, Churches speak of Christ, and yet if you look at them closely, they are COVERED in disbelief, because their focus is on other things -- programs, charity, good sermons, legalism, mysticism, etc., ...

If they TRULY believed in God, they would simply hold to Christ.

Instead, they've "blended" the Gospel in with humanism and it is a recipe for failure.
This is why the Church is in crisis.
They have lost hold of the Gospel, the Covenant.

ONLY Christ works -- Genesis 3:15 --> Isaiah 7:14 --> Galatians 4:3,4 --> Matthew 16:16 --> 1 John 3:8


For this video, this man goes to great lengths to say that "religious" people are not better than non-religious people, and are in fact, WORSE in many ways.

Hey, people are all people and they are all coming from the same root.

Jacob was about as bad a horse's ass as any person could be, and yet God blessed him TREMENDOUSLY.

Why did God bless him, seeing as he was a complete fucktard??

Answer: He held the Covenant.

This is all there is.

Now, Christ is the Covenant.

There is nothing else.

John 15:5 -- without Me (Christ) you can do nothing

Colossians 2:3 -- In Christ are hid ALL treasures of wisdom and knowledge

[Felix]

I don't think much of religion, either, Felix.

so, I'm assuming you never congregate with other christians to discuss the bible

christianity is a religion tart, whether you want to accept it or not
ask 100 people to define what a christian is, and at least 90% will at some point reference religion in their explanation...but hey, if you don't think your religious then your not

seriously, I'm not trying to derail your thread

preach on brother

[poptart]

We've had the discussion about "religion" in the past, and I again tried in the previous post to explain the distinction between religion and the Gospel.
It's an important distinction.

God gave the Gospel.
Man has given us religion.

Man fuggs up everything given to him.

By virtue of human "need" to classify things, Christianity is defined as a religion.

But accurately speaking, it is a faith.

[Mikey]

Then again, they are surely not necessarily.

You're not hedging are you?

[Felix]

Man fuggs up everything given to him.

what, are you crazy...man was "given" (and by that I mean developed) the brain power to institute cultivation methods that feed billions of people around the world that would otherwise starve to death, man's been given the ability to extract antibodies from previously lethal bacterias and viruses to develop vaccines that have saved countless lives...man has been given the ability to develop powered flight, which has changed the face of this planet...I could go on, but I think you see the point....sure, man's done some dumb shit, but it's far outweighed by all of the good things they've created

so, did man accomplish these things because "god" allowed it, or did they accomplish these things in spite of him

[poptart]

There are a couple ways I could go to respond to this question.
But first, I'll post one of the Scriptures I posted earlier.

John 15:5 -- without Me (Christ) you can do nothing

Well, from what you posted, Felix, man has done things, and a great many of these things have been done by people who are surely apart from Christ, as they don't believe in Him.

So Christ spoke wrong?


If one reads the tower of babel incident in Genesis 11:1-9, he learns a great lesson.
The people (with their imagination) puffed themselves up so as to think that they were going to build their own greatness -- and they were also going to meet God, on their terms.

This is, in short, btw, the "religion" that I spoke of earlier.
Man using his own effort to try to reach God.

Well, God snuffed that nonsense out.
All the "greatness" and "accomplishment" of the people went straight to ... nothing.


Man has a lot of "accomplishments" to boast of, and well, he's the king of the planet, so he ought to.

But what is it that God want man to "accomplish?"

Agriculture?
Vaccines?
Powered flight?

As soon as man fell into the fundamental problem which plagues all of mankind, God told us what He wants man to "accomplish."

He told them that Christ would come, to solve the problem -- Genesis 3:15
The Covenant.

God didn't talk about agriculture, vaccines or powered flight.
Because none of those things break the authority of darkness which keeps people in bondage.

And this is the Covenant that people held onto from the beginning -- that God IS going to provide the way to save man, who has gone into this problem.

Through the Old Testament, all people who held this Covenant, of the coming Messiah, were blessed by God -- even blatant @sshead Jacob.
And all people who ignored the Covenant fell into hardship and ultimately destruction, if they didn't come to their senses.

Because this is God's interest and this is what God moves the world for -- salvation for people.

The last Words of Jesus tell us what God wants man to accomplish.

Matthew 28:16-20
Acts 1:8


All of the agriculture, vaccines, powered flight, etc., x many, are "allowed" or "moved" by God so as to have world evangelization take place.

If a person is not aligning himself with God's plan, he will face hardship.
Christians as well, although they will not face destruction.
But they will suffer so long as they don't realize why God has saved them and then left them here on this planet.

God is happy for a non-believer to bust his @ss to "do good" for the world.
Those things are "needed."

But make no mistake, God will use that, and use his efforts ... for world evangelization, ultimately.

And if one does not take the Christ, he will fail, no matter how many vaccines he provides for ailing children.



That's my take.

[Felix]

the thing that probably bothers me most about your post tart, is that like so many other theist based belief systems (you don't want to be called religious so that's the best I can come up with) the vast majority of you seem to be simply sitting in giddy anticipation for the end of times to come...it's like you want the earth destroyed so that you can hook-up with your savior...I don't know if it will happen in our lifetime, but eventually we'll screw this planet up to the point where it will be uninhabitable and that will be your "armageddon"

who knows, maybe the newly mutated rust virus http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/200 ... index.html that attacks and kills wheat was sent by god to kill off probably the single most important food source known to man....maybe this is the beginning of the end.....so, no wheat in africa, the middle east, India, and who knows elsewhere, and you'll see death like nothing ever seen in the bible....we're talking potentially tens of millions of deaths unless science can come up with something to stop it....

but from your biblically charged responses, I'm not so sure you'd like to see science find a cure for this

[ppanther]

Something in our human nature makes us try our best to stay alive, Felix. That doesn't change when people become Christian. I'm pretty sure that anyone you ask, even if they're Christian, would want that virus stopped.

[Felix]

Something in our human nature makes us try our best to stay alive, Felix. That doesn't change when people become Christian. I'm pretty sure that anyone you ask, even if they're Christian, would want that virus stopped.

I have no doubt that you're right, but what if they can't find a cure and thus virus starts wiping out the wheat crops of countries like India...while Hindu's are pretty a pretty peaceful bunch, one thing I can absolutely guarantee you panther, is that the man's instinct for survival will ultimately supersede any and all theist based belief systems...and if it becomes a matter of their survival, what do you think they're capable of?

[poptart]

the thing that probably bothers me most about your post tart, is that like so many other theist based belief systems (you don't want to be called religious so that's the best I can come up with) the vast majority of you seem to be simply sitting in giddy anticipation for the end of times to come...it's like you want the earth destroyed so that you can hook-up with your savior

I've never posted such a take and I am not hopeful that "the end" will come quickly.



God is "moving" the world for one purpose.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

[ppanther]

one thing I can absolutely guarantee you panther, is that the man's instinct for survival will ultimately supersede any and all theist based belief systems...and if it becomes a matter of their survival, what do you think they're capable of?

I'm not sure that this is true.

I came across two quotes in a book I am reading, and immediately thought of this thread, and specifically the bold part in the quote above. The first is from Philip Yancy: "As I visited people whose pain far exceeded my own... I was surprised by its effects. Suffering seemed as likely to reinforce faith as to sow agnosticism." The second is from James S. Stewart: "It is the spectators, the people who are outside, looking at the tragedy, from whose ranks the skeptics come; it is not those who are actually in the arena and who know suffering from the inside. Indeed, the fact is that it is the world's greatest sufferers who have produced the most shining examples of unconquerable faith."

Those quotes are both from well-known Christians, so of course you might take issue with them. However, this is something they've thought long and hard on, observed, and studied in-depth. Their thoughts resonate a lot more with me than your guarantee. What do you know of suffering, Felix, aside from being an observer? What have you experienced that makes you an expert on what people might or might not do or feel if wheat is no longer available?

[Felix]

I'm not sure that this is true.
What do you know of suffering, Felix, aside from being an observer? What have you experienced that makes you an expert on what people might or might not do or feel if wheat is no longer available?

what kind of question is that? We can only be observers unless we're sitting in Rwanda starving to death.

Trust me panther, the instinct for survivial will override any faith-belief system....an example? Christians that have had to resort to cannibalism in an effort to survive-Donner's Party, Chilean football team, etc.....such an act would be abhorent and against every tenent of their faith, yet when push came to shove, they pulled the trigger. Extreme, sure. But true none the less.

Or is cannabilism allowed in the christian circles these days?

[ppanther]

what kind of question is that? We can only be observers unless we're sitting in Rwanda starving to death.

It's a valid question, given your guarantee.

You are right. We don't know what it's like to really suffer unless we experience it ourselves. We are all observers, but there are ways to observe more closely. For example, you could sit in your comfortable home, full and happy after a satisfying meal, and you can assume you know what the mother of a starving child in Rwanda must be thinking. The more accurate way to find that out, of course, would be to ask her yourself (or have someone who speaks her language ask her for you). I'm not saying you need to fly to Africa to have an opinion, I am saying that unless you have some more direct experience, you can't make me any guarantees about a potential reality. People can experience extreme suffering and still have faith in God. It happens.

Cannibalism is not considered kosher (sorry) in most human circles, Felix. The question at the end of your post was obviously silly, and you know the answer already. I suppose those two very strange incidences illustrate your point that people might do crazy things when faced with starvation. They don't do anything to prove that suffering causes people to turn away from their faith. Do their actions fit with what God would want for them? Of course not. But that can be said about most people of faith on most days. Humans are imperfect -- even the ones who believe in (and try to live their lives for) God.

One more thing: Millions of people have endured starvation without resorting to cannibalism. The two cases you mentioned are not the norm.

[Felix]

One more thing: Millions of people have endured starvation without resorting to cannibalism. The two cases you mentioned are not the norm.

Well, I'd guess that first the "millions" you mention probably aren't christians, and secondly, if they're at the point of considering eating people, they're probably too weak to do anything about it....but if you saw your life slipping away, and you were stranded on top of a mountain and had the ability to eat another human in order to survive you're telling me you wouldn't? I'd be willing to bet you would, even if it's as a last resort. You'd justify it accordingly

"they're dead already so what's the harm"
"they wouldn't want us to die if eating them could help us to stay alive"
"it's supposed to taste like chicken"

the instinct for survival is the single strongest driving force in man, and no amount of "jesus loves you's" is going to change that....it's just too many years of evolutionary biology to overcome....

[ppanther]

One more thing: Millions of people have endured starvation without resorting to cannibalism. The two cases you mentioned are not the norm.

Well, I'd guess that first the "millions" you mention probably aren't christians, and secondly, if they're at the point of considering eating people, they're probably too weak to do anything about it

the instinct for survival is the single greatest driving force in man, and no amount of "jesus loves you's" is going to change that....it's just too many years of evolutionary behavior to overcome....

Are you saying that every starving person would resort to cannibalism if only they weren't so weak? I'm pretty sure that's the argument you're trying to make. I'm also wondering if you're trying to tell me you think every person who has ever starved to death has been an atheist/agnostic. That's a pretty big assumption, Felix, and most likely completely inaccurate.

Basically Felix, you have no faith, and you have not suffered. You can think you know what might happen in the face of wide-spread suffering, but you're not in any position to guarantee me anything. You really can't know. There have been plenty of people who have suffered and retained their faith. There have been plenty of people who have had their faith strengthened through suffering. If you're unwilling to understand that, well, this discussion is pointless.

[ppanther]

One more thing: Millions of people have endured starvation without resorting to cannibalism. The two cases you mentioned are not the norm.

Well, I'd guess that first the "millions" you mention probably aren't christians, and secondly, if they're at the point of considering eating people, they're probably too weak to do anything about it....but if you saw your life slipping away, and you were stranded on top of a mountain and had the ability to eat another human in order to survive you're telling me you wouldn't? I'd be willing to bet you would, even if it's as a last resort. You'd justify it accordingly

"they're dead already so what's the harm"
"they wouldn't want us to die if eating them could help us to stay alive"
"it's supposed to taste like chicken"

the instinct for survival is the single strongest driving force in man, and no amount of "jesus loves you's" is going to change that....it's just too many years of evolutionary biology to overcome....

And now, to answer your edit...
What does what I might do in an extreme situation have to do with my faith?

First, I don't know what I would do, I've never been in that situation.
Second, I already gave you the point that people in extreme situations resort to some crazy behavior.

One thing you cannot possibly know is whether or not I would maintain my faith. Since you asked and since I am speaking for myself, I can absolutely beyond the shadow of a doubt guarantee that I would never stop believing in God. I might wonder why I was in that situation. I might even be angry that I was in that situation. But you cannot say you know what would become of my faith... because you simply don't.

[Felix]

What does what I might do in an extreme situation have to do with my faith?

nothing, because all you have to do is ask "him" for forgiveness and the slates wiped clean....see that's what is so strange about your belief...only people that believe in jesus as the savior get into heaven....so, theoretically of course, before his death Hitler could have asked god for forgiveness and really meant it, and made it into heaven-meanwhile, the 6,000,000 jews he killed won't be allowed in...don't you find that just a little repugnant?

First, I don't know what I would do, I've never been in that situation.
Second, I already gave you the point that people in extreme situations resort to some crazy behavior.

and those people can just ask for jesus forgiveness and they'll be forgiven

One thing you cannot possibly know is whether or not I would maintain my faith. Since you asked and since I am speaking for myself, I can absolutely beyond the shadow of a doubt guarantee that I would never stop believing in God.

seriously, good for you

I might wonder why I was in that situation.

well, according to what you believe it had to have been a result of god's larger plan

I might even be angry that I was in that situation. But you cannot say you know what would become of my faith... because you simply don't.

I wasn't implying you'd lose your faith, but was simply stating that you would likely do things that would be an abomination to your faith given the right circumstances....but not to worry, because christians have a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card

[poptart]

There have been plenty of people who have suffered and retained their faith.

Yes, and history is littered with Christians who have been persecuted, suffered, and gone to death because of their faith.

[Felix]

Yes, and history is littered with Christians who have been persecuted, suffered, and gone to death because of their faith.

and christians have committed unspeakable attrocities in the name of god...what's your point here?

[ppanther]

I wasn't implying you'd lose your faith, but was simply stating that you would likely do things that would be an abomination to your faith given the right circumstances....but not to worry, because christians have a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card

I thought you implied the loss of faith when you said people would "turn away" from their beliefs in the face of suffering. My bad, I guess.

You have a very simplistic idea of what Christians need to do in order to really accept God's grace, considering you've (supposedly?) read the Bible numerous times. Christians don't suddenly become perfect the second they accept God's grace. They are in fact more aware of their inability to be perfect than those who think they're "good enough" (see: those who think sufficient morals are inborn). Christians need to repent and seek forgiveness constantly, because their faith doesn't remove their natural tendency to sin. I'm not just talking about actions you or any other human might consider abominable. Christians are forgiven when they repent and accept God's grace. If you still think that is a "get out of jail free" card, please look up the definition of the word "repent" before you reply.

Besides, this isn't about unusual, specific circumstances where small numbers of people might do crazy things to survive. Extreme suffering exists currently on a regular basis for many people around the world. It makes more sense to me that a discussion of suffering be about them, not about people whose story was sensational enough to become a movie. Consider the first post I made, in which I said my husband met and spoke with suffering disabled people in Ukraine. Were they starving? No... they were just quadriplegic, very poor, and isolated in their tiny, dingy 10th-floor apartments. To me, that's a fairly significant amount of suffering. Were they on the edge of death? Not necessarily. Would you think you were suffering if you were in their shoes? I'm pretty sure you would. I know I would. Yet their faith was what impressed my husband the most. My husband is a very good man, one of the best I've ever met, and tries his best to live as God wants him to. He's pretty impressive, really... except he felt totally convicted about how little he felt he was doing to act on his faith compared with those suffering people he met. That was my point. Not only were those currently suffering people absolutely swimming in faith, they were displaying it, giving of themselves in ways that should make the rest of us ashamed.

Of course, if you didn't really mean it when you guaranteed that people who experienced suffering would "turn away" from their beliefs, this entire discussion is moot.

[Felix]

You have a very simplistic idea of what Christians need to do in order to really accept God's grace, considering you've (supposedly?) read the Bible numerous times.

how much more simple can it be than "believe in me or I'll have no choice but to torture you for eternity".....under any other circumstances (other than a faith based belief system), this sort of ultimatum would be considered nothing more than strong armed thuggery....but then, if you go into the bible, there's lots of this sort of behavior going on....

Christians don't suddenly become perfect the second they accept God's grace.

of course not...by and large they spend a good portion of their lives telling themselves they're not worthy (insert Wayne's World chant) of god loving them....exactly how much debasement does god demand before he's satisfied?

[ppanther]

of course not...by and large they spend a good portion of their lives telling themselves they're not worthy (insert Wayne's World chant) of god loving them....exactly how much debasement does god demand before he's satisfied?

...and more and more you demonstrate your overly-simplistic (lack of) understanding.

Feel free to comment on your "guarantee", and please provide evidence of your contention that 100% of all people would "turn away" from their faith in the face of extreme suffering.

it's just too many years of evolutionary biology to overcome....

You've been provided with examples of people retaining their faith in the face of suffering. Now you're whining about what you don't like about God, and ignoring the topic of the thread. Should I take this to mean we're done here?

[Python]

Yes. Wheel of Fortune's on.

[Felix]

...and more and more you demonstrate your overly-simplistic (lack of) understanding.

and of course, confronted with the bald faced reality, apologists such as yourself fall back on the old "you just don't get it" standby....good one, I never saw that one coming

You've been provided with examples of people retaining their faith in the face of suffering. Now you're whining about what you don't like about God, and ignoring the topic of the thread. Should I take this to mean we're done here?

no one has provided any "examples" of actual people that have faced "suffering" exclusively for their faith based beliefs and held onto them (I've asked you twice to define what you mean by suffering, now please provide it)...it was simply a claim made by both you and tart....

now if you're going to say "well I knew this guy who's family was all killed in a car accident and he remained a christian" that's not what I would consider a true test of faith-otherwise, anything and everything that impacts negatively could be considered a test of faith...no, I'm talking about people that have been persecuted strictly on the basis of their faith....

go ahead and list a few (other than biblical characters)

[ppanther]

and of course, confronted with the bald faced reality, apologists such as yourself fall back on the old "you just don't get it" standby....good one, I never saw that one coming

If you're comfortable having a poor understanding of that which you reject, fine by me. Stop making assertions from a position of ignorance and you might stop hearing about how you don't get it.

I love how you throw around the term "aplogist" like it's a bad thing... especially since you're making demands for explanations and defenses of faith. It's unsurprising, but it's still funny.

no one has provided any "examples" of actual people that have faced "suffering" exclusively for their faith based beliefs and held onto them

Your "guarantee" had nothing to do with people who faced suffering because of their beliefs. Your silly illustrations about the Donner Party and the plane crash in the Andes had nothing to do with people who faced suffering because of their beliefs. Why the sudden change in position, Felix? Just curious...

If you'd like an example of actual people who have faced suffering because of their faith, I can easily provide several. I'll start with one. You can wring your hands and demand more after that, if you wish. I'm pretty sure (given your history) that you won't really read it anyway. But since you asked...

Some of my good friends are involved in an organization that teaches English to Ethiopian English teachers. For Ethiopians, the ability to speak English is a tremendous help in allowing them to have more success and respect in life. It's a very big deal. Anyway, these friends of mine spent 6 weeks in Ethiopia last summer, and made quite a few friends in the process. One of them had previously converted from Muslim to Christian. Later in the summer, that very man spent some time in the US, and several of us got together for lunch. We were very interested in hearing his story.

By converting to Christianity, he was ostracized from his family. He was run from his community. He was nearly killed by people who used to be his "friends". Please don't disrespect this man and tell me he didn't suffer, Felix, since you have no idea what kind of torture he's endured. And guess what? He's Christian, still, stronger than ever. And he has joy in his life, and peace, and real happiness. But he has definitely endured persecution, almost to the point of death, because of his faith.

(I've asked you twice to define what you mean by suffering, now please provide it)

Hallucinating much? You most certain have not...

...it was simply a claim made by both you and tart....

Huh? Did you not read any of the rest of my post? About my husband and his experience in Ukraine? Why do you assume such a dense position within these discussions? I don't get it.

no, I'm talking about people that have been persecuted strictly on the basis of their faith....

You are now... but you weren't before. Stick to one story, please...

Unreal. I was hoping this would be a more rational discussion on your end, Felix... but really, it's just he same old garbage. Again. Please tell me you plan on holding up your end better this time.

[Python]

Please tell me you plan on holding up your end better this time.

Sin,

[Felix]

If you're comfortable having a poor understanding of that which you reject fine by me. Stop making assertions from a position of ignorance and you might stop hearing about how you don't get it.
I love how you throw around the term "aplogist" like it's a bad thing... especially since you're making demands for explanations and defenses of faith. It's unsurprising, but it's still funny.

why is it that you start insulting me
"poor understanding" = doesn't see things my way
"position of ignorance" = doesn't see things my way

an apologist is simply a term I apply to people that try and rationalize their faith based belief systems...it's in no way an insult, it's just terminology....but look, you've already taken "religious" away from me, so you've got to leave me this....

Your "guarantee" had nothing to do with people who faced suffering because of their beliefs. Your silly illustrations about the Donner Party and the plane crash in the Andes had nothing to do with people who faced suffering because of their beliefs.

I never said it did. What I did say is that these christians, when faced with doing something that would be considered an abomination to their faith based beliefs systems, they pulled the trigger and did what they needed to do to survive. I never said it had anything to do with abandoning their beliefs. I'm sure when the survivors came back to civilization, they immediately dialed up the big man and told him they were really sorry they had to eat their friends and family...some of them probably asked what god's greater plan for them was when he decided to snow them into a mountain pass with few provisions.....I'm sure there was some reason for it, there had to be...

Why the sudden change in position, Felix? Just curious

No change, you're simply reading more into what I posted than was actually there......see, you're spinning my point and I'm not going to let you do it....my point is simple...I'm of the opinion that if faced with a choice between survival and faith, the majority of the "faithful" would opt for survival....that's it, that's the entire point I was making...it's not based on any empirical data, it's just my opinion.....

the two highlighted words are OPINION and MAJORITY...those are the key words

If you'd like an example of actual people who have faced suffering because of their faith, I can easily provide several. I'll start with one. You can wring your hands and demand more after that, if you wish. I'm pretty sure (given your history) that you won't really read it anyway. But since you asked..

Some of my good friends are involved in an organization that teaches English to Ethiopian English teachers. For Ethiopians, the ability to speak English is a tremendous help in allowing them to have more success and respect in life. It's a very big deal. Anyway, these friends of mine spent 6 weeks in Ethiopia last summer, and made quite a few friends in the process. One of them had previously converted from Muslim to Christian. Later in the summer, that very man spent some time in the US, and several of us got together for lunch. We were very interested in hearing his story.

By converting to Christianity, he was ostracized from his family. He was run from his community. He was nearly killed by people who used to be his "friends". Please don't disrespect this man and tell me he didn't suffer, Felix, since you have no idea what kind of torture he's endured. And guess what? He's Christian, still, stronger than ever. And he has joy in his life, and peace, and real happiness. But he has definitely endured persecution, almost to the point of death, because of his faith.

okay, there's one....

Hallucinating much? You most certain have not...

sorry I thought I had...please define "suffering"?

Unreal. I was hoping this would be a more rational discussion on your end.

I thought it was until your started spinning again....

define "suffering" and please provide some more examples of these steadfast christians you say are so abundant....

[ppanther]

why is it that you start insulting me
"poor understanding" = doesn't see things my way
"position of ignorance" = doesn't see things my way

Felix, it wasn't an insult. Really. But your contentions were overly-simplistic. They were missing a lot. The term "ignorance" isn't necessarily meant to be insulting. In this case, it just means you aren't in possession of everything you need to make the assertions you made.

an apologist is simply a term I apply to people that try and rationalize their faith based belief systems...it's in no way an insult, it's just terminology....

Except you always use it when stating something you dislike about answers to questions you are asking. If it's not an insult, that's fine, but it sure comes off that way most of the time.

What I did say is that these christians, when faced with doing something that would be considered an abomination to their faith based beliefs systems

You said they would "turn away" from their faith -- and you weren't just speaking of Christians, at least not if I go by your "guarantee". Like I already said, if you didn't actually mean they would turn away from their beliefs, then my bad. But your guarantee is kind of silly in that case, since as I already explained, Christians do "what would be considered an abomination to their faith" on a regular basis. It has nothing to do with what you consider an abomination. So I'm just trying to figure out what you meant when you said they would "turn away" from their faith, since you are now saying they wouldn't actually turn away from their faith. Pardon my confusion...

I'm of the opinion that if faced with a choice between survival and faith, the majority of the "faithful" would opt for survival....that's it, that's the entire point I was making

You are more than welcome to that opinion, and you may or may not be right. But this statement is a lot different than the unquestionable guarantee you made earlier.

the two highlighted words are OPINION and MAJORITY...those are the key words

...and they are totally acceptable. They simply weren't implied initially. My bad for misreading your "guarantee"...

okay, there's one....

And so, your point was...?

please define "suffering"?

In the "teach a man to fish" spirit, I give you http://www.m-w.com. You're welcome.

please provide some more examples of these steadfast christians you say are so abundant....

I can list a few more people I've met, or you can admit that there are people in the world who have been persecuted for their faith, but remain faithful... often more so than before they were persecuted. Go ahead and prove it doesn't happen, Felix. It's your assertion, and I've already provided a genuine example of a person I've met who negates it.

[Felix]

You said they would "turn away" from their faith -- and you weren't just speaking of Christians, at least not if I go by your "guarantee". Like I already said, if you didn't actually mean they would turn away from their beliefs, then my bad. But your guarantee is kind of silly in that case, since as I already explained, Christians do "what would be considered an abomination to their faith" on a regular basis.

I know they do, because as I stated they've got the get out of jail card...
or think they do....I'm a great believer in karma

It has nothing to do with what you consider an abomination. So I'm just trying to figure out what you meant when you said they would "turn away" from their faith, since you are now saying they wouldn't actually turn away from their faith. Pardon my confusion...

well I see where you're confused here....see I think the problem is in that you and I see the phrase "turn away from" in completely different contexts....the wild card is the "if you repent you'll be forgiven" and that's what's mucking things up

...and they are totally acceptable. They simply weren't implied initially. My bad for misreading your "guarantee"...

well having what I consider to be abhorant behavior by so called "christians" time and time again, I guess that's why I'm so much of an anti-theist-see, I just don't get all the "goodness" that comes from faith based belief systems

And so, your point was...?

well you and tart seemed to imply that there were lots and lots of these people that have "suffered" and held strongly to their faith and I was simply pointing out that he counted as one

In the "teach a man to fish" spirit, I give you http://www.m-w.com. You're welcome.

this is fucking useless...like I said, if you use the merriam webster dictionary defitintion, everything could be considered as faith based belief system suffering.....
christian 1-"my dog died"
christian 2-"god's just testing your faith"

christian 3-"I just found out I've got lung cancer"
christian 4-"god's just testing your faith"

I swear, if I believed I'd actually be saying to myself right now
"god's just testing your faith" but then again, if I did believe, we wouldn't be having this discussion

if you can't see the idiocy of that type of circular reasoning, well there's no hope for you

I can list a few more people I've met, or you can admit that there are people in the world who have been persecuted for their faith, but remain faithful

sure I'll admit that...Sunni-Shiite is a perfect example....too bad their all deluded blasphemous fuckwits eh?

G ahead and prove it doesn't happen, Felix. It's your assertion, and I've already provided a genuine example of a person I've met who negates it.

I never said it doesn't happen and I provided you a perfect example
but in christianity, to be honest with you I just don't see it that much....

[ppanther]

I'm a great believer in karma

Awesome.

Do you seriously believe in karma, Felix, or are you just saying that? You really believe that there is some cosmic force that punishes those who have behaved badly? I'm sorry, I mean it's fine if you really believe in it... It just really doesn't reconcile with what you've said you do and don't believe.

well having what I consider to be abhorant behavior by so called "christians" time and time again, I guess that's why I'm so much of an anti-theist-see, I just don't get all the "goodness" that comes from faith based belief systems

This really reads as though you think only Christians behave abhorrently, which is pretty ridiculous. Anti-theists behave no better.

Christians do a lot of good things because of their faith, Felix. You can deny that, but you'll be doing so in ignorance. Do I think that only Christians do a lot of good things? No. But I've sure seen a lot of good things done in the name of Christianity.

well you and tart seemed to imply that there were lots and lots of these people that have "suffered" and held strongly to their faith and I was simply pointing out that he counted as one

...and you said you thought it would never happen, and thought the only available examples were in the Bible. It's OK to admit you were wrong, Felix.

this is fucking useless...like I said, if you use the merriam webster dictionary defitintion, everything could be considered as faith based belief system suffering.....
christian 1-"my dog died"
christian 2-"god's just testing your faith"

christian 3-"I just found out I've got lung cancer"
christian 4-"god's just testing your faith"

I swear, if I believed I'd actually be saying to myself right now
"god's just testing your faith" but then again, if I did believe, we wouldn't be having this discussion

if you can't see the idiocy of that type of circular reasoning, well there's no hope for you

HANG ON.
First of all, the two specific examples of suffering I provided in this thread were:
1) A very poor, potentially isolated quadriplegic who, if not for the mercy of others, would not experience mobility for the rest of his life
2) A man who was persecuted nearly to the point of death, ostracized from his family, and banished from his community because of his faith

Are you seriously comparing those two people to someone "suffering" because his dog died? Please tell me you're not. I mean honestly, what kind of person are you, Felix?

HOW is my view of suffering still a mystery to you? How spelled out do you need things to be? Seriously? Are you once again challenging the definition of a word because it doesn't help you win a debate? You call it "idiocy"? Unreal. Please explain what I said that could even remotely be considered "circular reasoning", Felix. You're dead wrong, again.

I never said it doesn't happen

Oh. My bad. Wait...

no one has provided any "examples" of actual people that have faced "suffering" exclusively for their faith based beliefs and held onto them (I've asked you twice to define what you mean by suffering, now please provide it)...it was simply a claim made by both you and tart....

Why were you asking for examples if you already knew it happened? If you asked in deliberate ignorance, which you must have if you "never said it doesn't happen", what was your point?

but in christianity, to be honest with you I just don't see it that much....

The possibility that you just don't pay much attention is highly promising.

[Felix]

Do you seriously believe in karma, Felix, or are you just saying that?

just saying

This really reads as though you think only Christians behave abhorrently, which is pretty ridiculous. Anti-theists behave no better.

seriously? When was the last time you were assaulted by an atheist telling you if you didn't quit worshipping god that something awful was going to happen to you?...it happens to me all the time.... these "good christians" that knock on my door then proceed to all but threaten me with eternal damnation unless I listen to what ever snake oil their selling....the next one of those asshats that shows up on my property is going to get hosed....treat them like any other pest, just keep driving them away until they quit coming back.....

Christians do a lot of good things because of their faith, Felix.

Some do I suppose, but I question the motives of many of them. Their always begging for money under the presumption that these monies will be used to help the poor. I don't know what the fuck they do with it. They tell me they do good things, but my defintion of a "good thing" and theirs might be substantially different.....if their using that money to feed starving people, clothe indigents, etc., then yeah I'd agree their doing good things...if their using it to sponsor missionary's to go out and recruit the simple minded into the fold, then no, I don't think their doing good things with it....

...and you said you thought it would never happen, and thought the only available examples were in the Bible. It's OK to admit you were wrong, Felix.

I never said any such thing. Don't be a fucking imbecile. Of course there are simple minded dolts that have been so brainwashed throughout their lives that they would do anything to adhere to those beliefs.....christians simply aren't put to that test that often, so for you to make a wide sweeping statement that some guy you know who almost got killed but maintained his faith as representative of chistians in general is pure fucking hogwash

HANG ON.
First of all, the two specific examples of suffering I provided in this thread were:
1) A very poor, potentially isolated quadriplegic who, if not for the mercy of others, would not experience mobility for the rest of his life
2) A man who was persecuted nearly to the point of death, ostracized from his family, and banished from his community because of his faith

Are you seriously comparing those two people to someone "suffering" because his dog died? Please tell me you're not. I mean honestly, what kind of person are you, Felix?[/quote]

I know for a fact that almost any malady/calamity can and often times is turned into "god's just testing your faith" bullshit.....

HOW is my view of suffering still a mystery to you? How spelled out do you need things to be? Seriously? Are you once again challenging the definition of a word because it doesn't help you win a debate?

This isn't a debate that's going to be won or lost, its an exchange of perspectives, nothing more, nothing less...I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change mind....there's nothing to be won or lost here....

Please explain what I said that could even remotely be considered "circular reasoning", Felix. You're dead wrong, again.

you're entire fucking belief system is based entirely on circular reasoning

this is the circular reasoning used by so many christians...maybe not you, maybe you think that god actually does "talk" to you (which is a sign of being schizophrenic, so check yourself)....of course, most christians think that god speaks directly to them.....hence the reason I think many christians are schizo's

The possibility that you just don't pay much attention is highly promising.

and the fact that you look at your beliefs strictly through rose colored glasses is much more probable....your defense of it rivals that of mother lion trying to protect her cub.....

need a good example, look in the other thread wherein tart started calling muslims blasphemers and their book an abomination.....is that the kind of behavior I should expect from all "good christians".....who in the fuck are you (well not you literally, but christians in general) to say what somebody should or shouldn't believe, degrade their beliefs, etc.

[Felix]

Do you seriously believe in karma, Felix, or are you just saying that?

just saying

This really reads as though you think only Christians behave abhorrently, which is pretty ridiculous. Anti-theists behave no better.

seriously? Check out the prison population and see what percentage of convicts are christian versus the number that are atheists-you'll be shocked by the results.....when was the last time you were assaulted by an atheist telling you if you didn't quit worshipping god that something awful was going to happen to you?...I'm guessing never...but it happens to me all the time.... these "good christians" that knock on my door then proceed to all but threaten me with eternal damnation unless I listen to what ever snake oil their selling....the next one of those asshats that shows up on my property is going to get hosed....treat them like any other pest, just keep driving them away until they quit coming back.....

Christians do a lot of good things because of their faith, Felix.

Some do I suppose, but I question the motives of many of them. Their always begging for money under the presumption that these monies will be used to help the poor. I don't know what the fuck they do with it. They tell me they do good things, but my defintion of a "good thing" and theirs might be substantially different.....if their using that money to feed starving people, clothe indigents, etc., then yeah I'd agree their doing good things...if their using it to sponsor missionary's to go out and recruit the simple minded into the fold, then no, I don't think their doing good things with it....

...and you said you thought it would never happen, and thought the only available examples were in the Bible. It's OK to admit you were wrong, Felix.

I never said any such thing. Don't be a fucking imbecile. Of course there are simple minded dolts that have been so brainwashed throughout their lives that they would do anything to adhere to those beliefs.....christians simply aren't put to that test that often, so for you to make a wide sweeping statement that some guy you know who almost got killed but maintained his faith as representative of chistians in general is pure fucking hogwash

HANG ON.
First of all, the two specific examples of suffering I provided in this thread were:
1) A very poor, potentially isolated quadriplegic who, if not for the mercy of others, would not experience mobility for the rest of his life
2) A man who was persecuted nearly to the point of death, ostracized from his family, and banished from his community because of his faith

Are you seriously comparing those two people to someone "suffering" because his dog died? Please tell me you're not. I mean honestly, what kind of person are you, Felix?

I know for a fact that almost any malady/calamity can and often times is turned into "god's just testing your faith" bullshit.....would you like me to come up with examples for you of people that have had tragic things happen to them and just accept that it's the way of the world and not some "plan" by his blessed invisibleness.....

HOW is my view of suffering still a mystery to you? How spelled out do you need things to be? Seriously? Are you once again challenging the definition of a word because it doesn't help you win a debate?

This isn't a debate that's going to be won or lost, its an exchange of perspectives, nothing more, nothing less...I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change mind....there's nothing to be won or lost here....

Please explain what I said that could even remotely be considered "circular reasoning", Felix. You're dead wrong, again.

you're entire fucking belief system is based entirely on circular reasoning

this is the circular reasoning used by so many christians...maybe not you, maybe you think that god actually does "talk" to you (which is a sign of being schizophrenic, so check yourself)....of course, most christians think that god speaks directly to them.....hence the reason I think many christians are schizo's

The possibility that you just don't pay much attention is highly promising.

and the fact that you look at your beliefs strictly through rose colored glasses is much more probable....your defense of it rivals that of mother lion trying to protect her cub.....

need a good example, look in the other thread wherein tart started calling muslims blasphemers and their book an abomination.....is that the kind of behavior I should expect from all "good christians".....who in the fuck are you (well not you literally, but christians in general) to say what somebody should or shouldn't believe, degrade their beliefs, etc.

[poptart]

need a good example, look in the other thread wherein tart started calling muslims blasphemers and their book an abomination.....is that the kind of behavior I should expect from all "good christians".....

We (you included) all have to make a call -- is Jesus the Christ?

Is He God?

That is the claim.

The evidence indicated to me that He is and He is.

And I received Him.

And after doing so, MORE evidence is continually presented.


John 14:6 is the Truth.

That is the determination I have made -- we ALL must make this determination.


I don't walk around and speak ill to muslims, Felix.

But in this kind of forum, I thought I could speak openly to you.

They are holding on to a lie which is destroying them.

[ppanther]

Do you seriously believe in karma, Felix, or are you just saying that?

just saying

I'm actually still really entertained by the thought that you honestly believe in karma.

seriously? Check out the prison population and see what percentage of convicts are christian versus the number that are atheists-you'll be shocked by the results.....

Oh yeah? Please provide me with specific data, and provide proof that they are actual Christians, and not just the huge number of people who call themselves Christian but never open a Bible or set foot in church. Thanks!

but it happens to me all the time.... these "good christians" that knock on my door then proceed to all but threaten me with eternal damnation unless I listen to what ever snake oil their selling....

You live in a strange place, then. I've never had it happen to me. If you get so chaffed about it, you could always just tell them to go away (GASP), or you could maybe shut the door (SHUDDER). It's not like the threat of eternal damnation means anything to you anyway, right? Goodness. Could you be just a little bit whinier, please?

the next one of those asshats that shows up on my property is going to get hosed....treat them like any other pest, just keep driving them away until they quit coming back.....

That'll show 'em! Woo!

Christians do a lot of good things because of their faith, Felix.

Some do I suppose, but I question the motives of many of them.

What a shock. What purpose does your skepticism serve? If their motives aren't in line with God's desires, if they're just trying to impress others with their good works, how does that make them any different from atheists who also do good works? Why should it bother you at all?

Their always begging for money

OK I am REALLY sorry that I have to do this, but you're an adult, learn English. THEY'RE = THEY ARE.

And no, they're not "always begging for money". If they ask for donations and you consider helping, and your paranoia gets in the way, you can always ask what they're planning to do with the money. People who spend their time feeding or clothing the homeless are rarely the covert/underhanded thieving types. If you really can't stand trusting someone else to do something good with a donation, get off your ass and do some good yourself, and don't donate. It's not complex.

I never said any such thing. Don't be a fucking imbecile.

You most certainly did imply that people who suffered would turn away from their faith. It's not even a context issue, Felix... it's a plain old English issue. Maybe you should get a better handle on vocabulary and try again later.

No need to resort to the same 8th-grade name-calling crap you reached for last time we did this, Felix.

christians simply aren't put to that test that often, so for you to make a wide sweeping statement that some guy you know who almost got killed but maintained his faith as representative of chistians in general is pure fucking hogwash

First of all, you need to go back to the minors for a few years before you can even remotely consider yourself capable of putting a Christian to the test. Secondly, what "wide sweeping statement" did I make? You asked for a real example of a person who suffered for his faith, I provided one. Because I did, you're crying in a most embarrassing fashion.

I know for a fact that almost any malady/calamity can and often times is turned into "god's just testing your faith" bullshit.....would you like me to come up with examples for you of people that have had tragic things happen to them and just accept that it's the way of the world and not some "plan" by his blessed invisibleness.....

What on earth are you talking about, Felix? Why do you keep changing your "point" (as though you ever really had one) when your previous "point" is challenged?

you're entire fucking belief system is based entirely on circular reasoning

You're welcome to that opinion, sure, but you were not talking about my belief system. You were talking about how you don't agree with the dictionary definition of suffering.

hence the reason I think many christians are schizo's

Pertinent... thanks for sharing. Not at all degrading, either. (See your last quote in this post.)

and the fact that you look at your beliefs strictly through rose colored glasses is much more probable....

No, it's really not. But I can see why you like to believe that.

your defense of it rivals that of mother lion trying to protect her cub.....

You ask offensive questions, you shouldn't be surprised by defensive responses. See the "apologist" quote from earlier.

need a good example, look in the other thread wherein tart started calling muslims blasphemers and their book an abomination.....is that the kind of behavior I should expect from all "good christians".....who in the fuck are you (well not you literally, but christians in general) to say what somebody should or shouldn't believe, degrade their beliefs, etc.

Well I don't know, Felix... who are you to say what somebody should or shouldn't believe?

[Felix]

I actually could give a fat rat's ass about the rest of your response, but this part pretty much pissed me off....self righteousness does that to me

People who spend their time feeding or clothing the homeless are rarely the covert/underhanded thieving types. If you really can't stand trusting someone else to do something good with a donation, get off your ass and do some good yourself, and don't donate. It's not complex.

Every month, I have a fixed amount of my paycheck donated to the United Way Fund.....my wife and I (who also leans atheistic) donate time almost every year to handing out Thanksgiving Dinners to the homeless and the indigent....I donate as much time as I can to our local food bank helping stock shelves and delivering "care packages" to those in need...I sat on the board of our local "Meals on Wheels" program and served as the promotional manager on my own dime until the State cutoff funding....I donate blood on at least a monthly basis and sometimes more (when they call) because I have a somewhat rare blood type ....I support my local junior high and high schools with donations of time and money although I don't have any children in any of the schools I support....

what the fuck do you do for your fellow man other than pray for their souls?