No Death Panels, Eh?

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Truman
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No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by Truman »

Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, health adviser to President Barack Obama, is under scrutiny. As a bioethicist, he has written extensively about who should get medical care, who should decide, and whose life is worth saving. Dr. Emanuel is part of a school of thought that redefines a physician’s duty, insisting that it includes working for the greater good of society instead of focusing only on a patient’s needs. Many physicians find that view dangerous, and most Americans are likely to agree.

The health bills being pushed through Congress put important decisions in the hands of presidential appointees like Dr. Emanuel. They will decide what insurance plans cover, how much leeway your doctor will have, and what seniors get under Medicare. Dr. Emanuel, brother of White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, has already been appointed to two key positions: health-policy adviser at the Office of Management and Budget and a member of the Federal Council on Comparative Effectiveness Research. He clearly will play a role guiding the White House's health initiative.

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"Principles for Allocation of Scarce Medical Interventions" The Lancet, January 31, 2009

The Reaper Curve: Ezekiel Emanuel used the above chart in a Lancet article to illustrate the ages on which health spending should be focused.

Dr. Emanuel says that health reform will not be pain free, and that the usual recommendations for cutting medical spending (often urged by the president) are mere window dressing. As he wrote in the Feb. 27, 2008, issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA): "Vague promises of savings from cutting waste, enhancing prevention and wellness, installing electronic medical records and improving quality of care are merely 'lipstick' cost control, more for show and public relations than for true change."

True reform, he argues, must include redefining doctors' ethical obligations. In the June 18, 2008, issue of JAMA, Dr. Emanuel blames the Hippocratic Oath for the "overuse" of medical care: "Medical school education and post graduate education emphasize thoroughness," he writes. "This culture is further reinforced by a unique understanding of professional obligations, specifically the Hippocratic Oath's admonition to 'use my power to help the sick to the best of my ability and judgment' as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of cost or effect on others."In numerous writings, Dr. Emanuel chastises physicians for thinking only about their own patient's needs. He describes it as an intractable problem: "Patients were to receive whatever services they needed, regardless of its cost. Reasoning based on cost has been strenuously resisted; it violated the Hippocratic Oath, was associated with rationing, and derided as putting a price on life. . . . Indeed, many physicians were willing to lie to get patients what they needed from insurance companies that were trying to hold down costs." (JAMA, May 16, 2007).

Of course, patients hope their doctors will have that single-minded devotion. But Dr. Emanuel believes doctors should serve two masters, the patient and society, and that medical students should be trained "to provide socially sustainable, cost-effective care." One sign of progress he sees: "the progression in end-of-life care mentality from 'do everything' to more palliative care shows that change in physician norms and practices is possible." (JAMA, June 18, 2008).

"In the next decade every country will face very hard choices about how to allocate scarce medical resources. There is no consensus about what substantive principles should be used to establish priorities for allocations," he wrote in the New England Journal of Medicine, Sept. 19, 2002. Yet Dr. Emanuel writes at length about who should set the rules, who should get care, and who should be at the back of the line.

"You can't avoid these questions," Dr. Emanuel said in an Aug. 16 Washington Post interview. "We had a big controversy in the United States when there was a limited number of dialysis machines. In Seattle, they appointed what they called a 'God committee' to choose who should get it, and that committee was eventually abandoned. Society ended up paying the whole bill for dialysis instead of having people make those decisions."

Dr. Emanuel argues that to make such decisions, the focus cannot be only on the worth of the individual. He proposes adding the communitarian perspective to ensure that medical resources will be allocated in a way that keeps society going: "Substantively, it suggests services that promote the continuation of the polity—those that ensure healthy future generations, ensure development of practical reasoning skills, and ensure full and active participation by citizens in public deliberations—are to be socially guaranteed as basic. Covering services provided to individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens are not basic, and should not be guaranteed. An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia." (Hastings Center Report, November-December, 1996)

In the Lancet, Jan. 31, 2009, Dr. Emanuel and co-authors presented a "complete lives system" for the allocation of very scarce resources, such as kidneys, vaccines, dialysis machines, intensive care beds, and others. "One maximizing strategy involves saving the most individual lives, and it has motivated policies on allocation of influenza vaccines and responses to bioterrorism. . . . Other things being equal, we should always save five lives rather than one.

"However, other things are rarely equal—whether to save one 20-year-old, who might live another 60 years, if saved, or three 70-year-olds, who could only live for another 10 years each—is unclear." In fact, Dr. Emanuel makes a clear choice: "When implemented, the complete lives system produces a priority curve on which individuals aged roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get changes that are attenuated (see Dr. Emanuel's chart nearby).

Dr. Emanuel concedes that his plan appears to discriminate against older people, but he explains: "Unlike allocation by sex or race, allocation by age is not invidious discrimination. . . . Treating 65 year olds differently because of stereotypes or falsehoods would be ageist; treating them differently because they have already had more life-years is not."

The youngest are also put at the back of the line: "Adolescents have received substantial education and parental care, investments that will be wasted without a complete life. Infants, by contrast, have not yet received these investments. . . .

As the legal philosopher Ronald Dworkin argues, 'It is terrible when an infant dies, but worse, most people think, when a three-year-old dies and worse still when an adolescent does,' this argument is supported by empirical surveys." (thelancet.com, Jan. 31, 2009).

To reduce health-insurance costs, Dr. Emanuel argues that insurance companies should pay for new treatments only when the evidence demonstrates that the drug will work for most patients. He says the "major contributor" to rapid increases in health spending is "the constant introduction of new medical technologies, including new drugs, devices, and procedures. . . . With very few exceptions, both public and private insurers in the United States cover and pay for any beneficial new technology without considering its cost. . . ." He writes that one drug "used to treat metastatic colon cancer, extends medial survival for an additional two to five months, at a cost of approximately $50,000 for an average course of therapy." (JAMA, June 13, 2007).

Medians, of course, obscure the individual cases where the drug significantly extended or saved a life. Dr. Emanuel says the United States should erect a decision-making body similar to the United Kingdom's rationing body—the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE)—to slow the adoption of new medications and set limits on how much will be paid to lengthen a life.

Dr. Emanuel's assessment of American medical care is summed up in a Nov. 23, 2008, Washington Post op-ed he co-authored: "The United States is No. 1 in only one sense: the amount we shell out for health care. We have the most expensive system in the world per capita, but we lag behind many developed nations on virtually every health statistic you can name."


This is untrue, though sadly it's parroted at town-hall meetings across the country. Moreover, it's an odd factual error coming from an oncologist. According to an August 2009 report from the National Bureau of Economic Research, patients diagnosed with cancer in the U.S. have a better chance of surviving the disease than anywhere else.

The World Health Organization also rates the U.S. No. 1 out of 191 countries for responsiveness to the needs and choices of the individual patient. That attention to the individual is imperiled by Dr. Emanuel's views.

Dr. Emanuel has fought for a government takeover of health care for over a decade. In 1993, he urged that President Bill Clinton impose a wage and price freeze on health care to force parties to the table. "The desire to be rid of the freeze will do much to concentrate the mind," he wrote with another author in a Feb. 8, 1993, Washington Post op-ed. Now he recommends arm-twisting Chicago style. "Every favor to a constituency should be linked to support for the health-care reform agenda," he wrote last Nov. 16 in the Health Care Watch Blog. "If the automakers want a bailout, then they and their suppliers have to agree to support and lobby for the administration's health-reform effort."

Is this what Americans want?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 98676.html

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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by Diego in Seattle »

I guess you prefer the current death panels that are based on profit.
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

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Truman wrote:...and Diego in Seatte will chuck-up yet another brain-dead post...
FTFM
Diego in Seattle wrote:I guess you prefer the current death panels that are based on profit.
Good point, Hermano. America is FAR better off with death panels that are based on NON-profit.

Weak, Homes. The kids you diddle got better takes....
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by smackaholic »

Diego in Seattle wrote:I guess you prefer the current death panels that are based on profit.
Are you implying that this fukkers solutions are not based on cost? Cost, btw is interchangeable with "profit".

I'll take the private "profit" system simply because it is not controlled by a fukking DC hack.

If we want to go after "profit", let's look at criminals like john Edwards who played this system for countless millions of dollars and unlike the medical side, didn't save a single person in the process.
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by Derron »

The proposed system is one that will be paid for with administrative efficiency and other administrative savings. Per President Barak Obongo.

Kind of like the Federal government has already been doing.
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

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Truman wrote:America is FAR better off with death panels that are based on NON-profit.
That is weapons grade stupid.
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by LTS TRN 2 »

Haven't you ever wondered why America spends twice as much on health care and gets half as much? Don't you wonder how EVERY other modern nation provides COMPLETE health care for its citizens despite the factors of an aging population base? Well, you might start with the fact that these nations spend about FIVE percent on administrative costs, while America's bloated profit oriented system spends about TWENTY percent. You might then also consider that the basic premise in all of these nations is that of providing care for ALL its citizens as the first priority, and the cost control as that which must be done to accommodate the former.

Why...anyone would shill on behalf of giant pharmaceutical corporations and HMOs remains a mystery. The robotic Ayn Rand clowns here simply attack the government--as though this pathetic take has any credibility. Health care is NOT a profit oriented industry, and the shaping of it in this sense by shameless corporate whores has proven disastrous to the public.

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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

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That garbage about the US being the only modern nation blablablah, is nothing but a window-licker's handfed talking point.

None of the countries included in the deliberately vague "all modern nations" have anywhere close to 400 million residents (plus illegals), or the staggering number of remote rural areas that are served by doctors and hospitals. But everyone knows that, right? So lay off the Smokin' Lead flavored Doritos, Slappy.

Since many of our brightest minds are attracted to medical careers for the rewards, this plan that includes huge pay cuts for doctors (fifty fucking percent for anesthesiologists) will be a boon for the legal profession in the US, since pre-med kids are already punching the Eject button in droves. Spare me the lofty crap about them doing it because of a love of mankind. The 1% that do are noble, if a little creepy. The rest won't go to a forum on new treatment techniques (for example) unless you pay them.

If everyone is entitled to the same care and most of the talented physicians live on either coast, with Obama's plan does the patient have to see their local hack doctor anyway? The ACLU surely has this civil rights case locked and loaded already.

The administrative costs argument is baffling. Not to say there aren't inefficiencies, but most of the additional 15% comes from correspondance associated with duplicate claims and referrals, claims appeals and denials, EOBs, missed copay bills, referral appeals and denials, HIPAA compliance/document updates, accounting and checks going to providers. To drive the point home, none of the items mentioned include the day-to-day processing of paperwork (claims, etc). Feel free to educate thyself, good sir.

I've had two uber-smart people tell me recently that they don't care if Obama gets it wrong, because anything he does gets the ball rolling for real change. Nick, please tell me you're not in that crowd.
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

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For the slow kid in New York state:

[sarcasm]America is FAR better off with death panels that are based on NON-profit.[/sarcasm]

You couldn't possibly be this daft.
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

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Truman wrote:For the slow kid in New York state:

[sarcasm]America is FAR better off with death panels that are based on NON-profit.[/sarcasm]

You couldn't possibly be this daft.
It was your overwrought sarcasm I was intending to insult.
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

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Jsc810 wrote:What's wrong with death panels?
Okey-doke. I'll play.

How about we assume for the moment that you're not trolling and consider this hypothetical scenario:

Let's say that there's this fella - smart fella, could be a doctor or an attorney or something, pushing hard towards the north side of 50 if he hasn't already reached that age by now. Lives somewhere in the deep South. Doesn't really matter - Just a good fella.

And let's say that this fella has had more than his share of hospitalizations over the course of his lifetime for a myriad of reasons. Some might even have been life threatening. We don't know. But he's been in the hospital a whole bunch of times. This doctor/lawyer fella has also had extensive follow-up procedures and a mess of rehab over the years as well.

Now, it might be easy to assume that this professional fella has had some form of private insurance, but then again, maybe not. Chances are about even that he might be out of pocket some serious cayshe meeting hospital deductibles, paying for meds, and contracting for in-home nursing services, just to name a few possible expenses. So the concept of Obamacare might actually look pretty good to him.

But unless he's looking to go Toddowen any time soon, he's gonna want Obamacare to guarantee him the same level of treatment that he has enjoyed throughout his lifetime - at a much more reasonable expense, of course.

Because this smart, professional, doctor/lawyer fella KNOWS that he's not in the best of health and will probably have to back to the hospital again someday soon.

Trouble is, Dr. Death is out there with his expense chart (see above). And 50-plus is on the downhill slope for healthcare spending. Oh, he might authorize cutting a check for stent angioplasty, but a heart transplant? Maybe not so much. See, Dr. Death is looking at smart, professional fella's medical records too. He has these records because the new law says he can. And maybe he sees that Mr. Doctor/Lawyer has been in-and-out of the hospital a whole bunch of times in the past. So maybe he won't cut that check for stent angioplasty after all, much less authorize spending for a transplant. Maybe he'll suggest that that doctor/lawyer fella recieve pain pills instead. Doesn't matter that doctor/lawyer fella's heart condition might not have anything to do with any previous ailments - his previous health conditions have proven him to be at-risk and most assuredly to be an expensive burden to the new system.

Now I don't know about you, JSC, but if I were that doctor/lawyer fella, I for damn-sure-as-hell wouldn't want some Dr. Death out there somewhere reviewing my personal medical history and using some screwed up formula to determine whether I was worthy of a life-saving procedure. Because the thought occurs that if I had a health record like our doctor/lawyer fella, I might just be a prime candidate for that kind of scrutiny. But that's just me.
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

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BSmack wrote:It was your overwrought sarcasm I was intending to insult.
Overwrought?

Now you're being sarcastic.

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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

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OCmike wrote:That garbage about the US being the only modern nation blablablah, is nothing but a window-licker's handfed talking point.

None of the countries included in the deliberately vague "all modern nations" have anywhere close to 400 million residents (plus illegals), or the staggering number of remote rural areas that are served by doctors and hospitals. But everyone knows that, right? So lay off the Smokin' Lead flavored Doritos, Slappy.

The administrative costs argument is baffling. Not to say there aren't inefficiencies, but most of the additional 15% comes from correspondance associated with duplicate claims and referrals, claims appeals and denials, EOBs, missed copay bills, referral appeals and denials, HIPAA compliance/document updates, accounting and checks going to providers. To drive the point home, none of the items mentioned include the day-to-day processing of paperwork (claims, etc). Feel free to educate thyself, good sir.

I've had two uber-smart people tell me recently that they don't care if Obama gets it wrong, because anything he does gets the ball rolling for real change. Nick, please tell me you're not in that crowd.
Wrong, and simplistic. The list of "modern nations" is not in any a solid block. There are in fact huge differences, for example, between the PRIVATE system of Japan (that's right, despite the universal care, it's all private) and Britain's PUBLIC system (all of it), and yet both of these nations provide COMPLETE coverage for every citizen. The differences continue and reflect the various differences in size and culture and geography. Your NON argument simply assumes that--what, "remote rural areas" are some important factor in America's health care system having been rapaciously converted to a profit seeking disease management industry. You quickly wheel out the "necessary incentive" fake argument for doctors needing to run up costs and charges. This apparently is the same argument that defends obscene bonuses for management while the company circles the drain.

It's somewhat pathetic that the argument against significant health care reform is based on a nervous nelly attack on other nations' successful systems, while denying the crisis of our own. Even a corrupt shithole like Israel has universal care. What's your excuse again?
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by JMak »

I wonder which successful health care systems ^^^ is referring to?

And Britain does not provide "complete coverage" for all of it's citizens. You cannot argue this when thousands of women cannot have their babies in hopsital labor and delivery departments because they're overcrowded or when seniors are denied health care services based on lack of need. You simply cannot argue that.

And Japan, iirc, is not universal coverage. I understand Japan has a compulsory system with people on the public dole and employees on the corporate dole. I imagine it's much easier to run and maintain and health care system with a small, nearly homogenous population. I'd like to LTS's idea of how a similar system could be effectively implemented here in the US given the disparities in a) population size, b) the scattered nature of that population, and c) racial/rthnic composition of that population.
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by LTS TRN 2 »

Weasel, your knowledge of this subject is apparently informed by folks like Glenn Beck and Rusp Limpdick. You obviously know nothing of Japan, for starters. Suck on this--attempt to dispute it if you like. I didn't write it but it reflects my take.

The nation of Japan has a whole bunch of private insurance plans. Which one you choose depends on where you live and by whom you are employed. The government, however, has very strict rules governing these plans. First, the insurance companies are nonprofit. Think of that! Of course doctors and staffers make salaries, but there are no shareholders and minimal corporate bloat.

It is, of course, an article of the American creed that competition and the free market help the consumer by bringing down prices. No matter how often this theory is disproved, politicians go on asserting it and people go on believing it. It may be true for two hamburger stands across the street from each other trying to attract customers, but it ain't true for gigantic national corporations.

For one thing, in the United States, it's virtually impossible to find out what the prices are. In Japan, it's easy because the prices are the same everywhere. Hardly free market capitalism, which is by this point only a fairy tale told to the little children.

In Japan, everyone is required to have some kind of health insurance. (Hillary Rodham Clinton was in favor of that, but she lost.) What kind of health insurance you get depends on your employer. If you are self-employed or unemployed, you are insured by the National Health Service, what we might call the "public option."

Anyone can go to any doctor at any time. The wait at most clinics is so short that most people don't even bother making appointments. There are no "in-network" lists or "pre-surgical approvals" or "uncovered prior conditions." Doctors can choose the tests and medications they feel are necessary. The fees are negotiated with the government every other year, and are generally one-third to one-half of those in the United States.

And here's another surprising thing: The Japanese are voracious users of the medical care system. They go to a doctor an average of 15 times a year, and they have twice as many MRIs and X-rays as American patients. And yet Japan has about the lowest per-capita health care costs of any industrial nation.

More statistics: The life expectancy in the United States is 78 years; in Japan it's 83. Health spending as a percentage of GDP: 15 percent in the United States; 8 percent in Japan. Amount spent on health care per annum per person in the United States: $7,000; amount spent on the same thing in Japan: $3,400. Doctors per 100,000 people; 26 in the United States; 21 in Japan. We may postulate that the doctors can do more with less in Japan because they don't have to spend endless hours on paperwork, setting up medical corporations and buying little water features for their waiting rooms.

Japan is a small, homogenous country; the United States is a large, heterogeneous one. Japan's life expectancy is helped by good diet and low incidence of violence and obesity. They do smoke like chimneys over there, and their suicide rate is higher; still, they live longer and pay half of what we do for superior medical care.

So here's the question: Why are Americans so opposed to changing health care? Is it because of insurance-company-sponsored smear campaigns? Is it because there is such deep distrust of the government that people don't trust it to do anything right - except keep those Social Security checks coming and buy more tanks? Is it because the president is an African American? (The Clintons are white folks, and they didn't get anything done either.)

Sure, there would be problems during the changeover. But honest to God, wouldn't you like to visit any doctor you chose, get any medication or procedure he thought was necessary, pay half of what you pay now and live longer? Doesn't that sound like a good plan, basically speaking?

Or are we just so xenophobic we don't like the idea of foreigners handling modern problems better than we do? Watch out, Second World, here we come.

In Japan, there are short waits for medical care, fees are small, and life expectancy is high. No wonder we hate them.
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by JMak »

Hey, dipshit, the funny thing is that while you claimed I knew nothing about Japan's system, your piece confirmed what I had posted regarding compulsory coverage and cited the issue of a small homogenous society versus a large heterogeneous society.

Your piece simply parrots the same claptrap we've been hearing from the pro-nationalize health care people for years - spending less money for superior care, yet, neither you or your author actually cite valid measures of health care system efficacy to prove your assertion. Your author also glosses over a major issue - i.e., the clear distinction in size and type of society we're working with.

The best is this - that idiot, despite acknowledge the cultural differences that affect life expectancy then ignores them as he prattles on about living longer and paying half of what we do.

And save the racist, xenophobia nonsense. Americans have long been suspicious of government authority, you know, since the Founding of this nation...And Americans have long been opposed and distrustful of government running health care and why wouldn't they be. Just look at the mess the government has created with Medicare and Social Security, the USPS, Amtrak, and the hundreds of billions wasted every year that produces nothing at all.

Bottom line...there's nothing to dispute in that shit you posted because there's only hollow and unsubstantiated arguments.
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by Mikey »

If Medicare is such a mess then why is:

a) Michael Steele promising not to change it in his diatribes against all things "Obamacare"?
b) The Republican Party and kunckledraggers in general spending so much time and effort to rile up the senior citizens and scare them into thinking that the Democrats will change it in any way?
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by JMak »

Mikey wrote:If Medicare is such a mess then why is:

a) Michael Steele promising not to change it in his diatribes against all things "Obamacare"?
Because he's a political hack who is making a promise to seniors, plain and simple. What? You thought Steele's promise was somehow a reflection of Medicare's solid footings? Asshat.
b) The Republican Party and kunckledraggers in general spending so much time and effort to rile up the senior citizens and scare them into thinking that the Democrats will change it in any way?
First, the Democrats are going to change it. Second, they're playing a political game.

Either way, it says nothing about the effectiveness or efficiency of Medicare.

But you knew that already and decided to play the fool.
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by OCmike »

Nick, as usual your arguments are just a slew of keyboard ass bleats. You counter truths about American healthcare, an industry that I work in[/], btw, imo, with "you're wrong"? Uh...yeah.

My responses are simplistic because I can't get more specific without you being up to speed on the inner workings of our system. Fact is, your arguments are nothing more than idealistic opinions. But if you want me to address individual questions with facts or known quantities, I'll oblige.

Obama's plan does nothing to address out of control lawsuit awards(shocker, since he's a lawyer) and malpractice insurance, the latter of which costs most docs 40% of their pay. You'd think he might want to lob some "change" in those directions. His plan to investigate fraud is purely reactionary and based on tips. The only people in a position to do this would be the docs office manager. Since busting her boss would put her out of a job, take a wild stab at how often that'll happen.

I'm fine with a public option, as long as recipients contribute to it and pay copays. Nothing drastic, but giving it away for free gives further incentive to stay on the teet indefinitely. Copays will at least discourage the snifflers from heading to the ER to get post nasal drip treated while someone with a legit problem has to wait. Spare me the "they'd put everyone else first" garbage. Head wounds, bleeders and those with abdominal pain go first. Everyone else is fcfs.
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

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JMak wrote: The best is this - that idiot, despite acknowledge the cultural differences that affect life expectancy then ignores them as he prattles on about living longer and paying half of what we do.

And save the racist, xenophobia nonsense. Americans have long been suspicious of government authority, you know, since the Founding of this nation...And Americans have long been opposed and distrustful of government running health care and why wouldn't they be. Just look at the mess the government has created with Medicare and Social Security, the USPS, Amtrak, and the hundreds of billions wasted every year that produces nothing at all.

Bottom line...there's nothing to dispute in that shit you posted because there's only hollow and unsubstantiated arguments.
Okay weasel, you've pissed your pants again. Your little snarl does not refute any of what is contained in the piece. Nothing. Where do think you've refuted anything? The fact that the Japanese live longer, use MORE health care, are ALL insured, and spend HALF of what we do refutes your NON argument up and down.

And why are you suggesting Japan is so small? It's got about 120 million people. The fact that it's basically a one race society is completely irrelevant. Why would anyone suggest otherwise?

The REAL point...the MAIN point...that you and your tedious ilk are avoiding like a rat trap is the basic fact that of ALL of the other modern nations (with full coverage, etc. EVERY ONE OF THEM) ours is the ONLY system dedicated to rapacious Free Market profiteering. This is the ENTIRE problem. Or did you gloss over the astonishing fact that in Japan the insurance companies are NON-PROFIT?

And really, why should basic public service be a profit oriented industry?

And as for your idiotic pseudo Libertarian nonsense about everything government oriented being a failure, Medicare, Social Security, the USPS, Amtrak are all excellent programs which have served untold millions of Americans. You're a disgrace as an American and a idiot to boot.

And what's this OC MIkey chiming in with hollow critiques? I notice you dispute nothing in the piece about Japan--and you're accusing me of empty dismissals?. Of course I agree that the insurance companies are fleecing us up and down, and I share your disgust with Barry for being an apparently helpless in leading the necessary fight. How is it that Japan's insurance companies are non-profit? Well, start with the serious system of regulation that governs the entire health care system there (and in other modern nations). And ask why the anti-regulators here (and that's the entire so-called "right wing") still presume to be taken seriously, despite the outright corruption and disaster that has ensued from their spree of "success" in the last 12 years (and yes I know Clinton signed off on the worst).
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by Felix »

Truman wrote: Now I don't know about you, JSC, but if I were that doctor/lawyer fella, I for damn-sure-as-hell wouldn't want some Dr. Death out there somewhere reviewing my personal medical history and using some screwed up formula to determine whether I was worthy of a life-saving procedure. Because the thought occurs that if I had a health record like our doctor/lawyer fella, I might just be a prime candidate for that kind of scrutiny. But that's just me.

seriously bud, you need to stop listening to the wingnut/burning torch/villager crowd.....


http://www.newsweek.com/id/214254

although I've got to hand it to the Reps, they're very effective at scaring the bejeezus out of their primary constituency (which is largely made up of low income, low intelligence southerners)
Last edited by Felix on Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

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Oh shut up, you cunt
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by JMak »

LTS TRN 2 wrote:Okay weasel, you've pissed your pants again. Your little snarl does not refute any of what is contained in the piece. Nothing. Where do think you've refuted anything? The fact that the Japanese live longer, use MORE health care, are ALL insured, and spend HALF of what we do refutes your NON argument up and down.
There was nothing to refute. Citing a fact or facts is not an argument. An argument contains facts, reasoning, ideas, etc all to reach a conclusion.

The conclusion of your guy's piece was that we're just xenophobic racists that hate other modern cultures which explains why we don't have Japanese-style health care. That's not an argument, well, it's not an argument that is supported by anything he's published.

Life expectancy is not a valid measure of health care efficacy. And your guy even cites why but is too stupid to recognize it, just as you're too stupid to recognize that.
And why are you suggesting Japan is so small? It's got about 120 million people. The fact that it's basically a one race society is completely irrelevant. Why would anyone suggest otherwise?
Idiot, your author cites the homogeneity of Japanese society as a key distinction between the US and Japan. Argue with him why it's relevant. As well, I am not arguing that Japan is small. I am arguing that implementing a nationalized health care system across a population the size of japan is immensely different than implementing it across a population the size of America's. Hell, your guy recognizes this, too.
The REAL point...the MAIN point...that you and your tedious ilk are avoiding like a rat trap is the basic fact that of ALL of the other modern nations (with full coverage, etc. EVERY ONE OF THEM) ours is the ONLY system dedicated to rapacious Free Market profiteering. This is the ENTIRE problem. Or did you gloss over the astonishing fact that in Japan the insurance companies are NON-PROFIT?
That point is neither here nor there. The point here, as yuo've presented it, is why not emulate Japan...
And really, why should basic public service be a profit oriented industry?
You'll have to establish that health care should be or is a basic public service before asserting that as a fact.
And as for your idiotic pseudo Libertarian nonsense about everything government oriented being a failure, Medicare, Social Security, the USPS, Amtrak are all excellent programs which have served untold millions of Americans. You're a disgrace as an American and a idiot to boot.
Excellent? LMAO! In what ways? Both the USPS and Amtrak operate at a loss...every year and require billions in taxpayer subsidies to operate. Medicare and SS are broken programs as nearly everyone (excluding oddball idiots like you) agrees.
And what's this OC MIkey chiming in with hollow critiques? I notice you dispute nothing in the piece about Japan--and you're accusing me of empty dismissals?. Of course I agree that the insurance companies are fleecing us up and down, and I share your disgust with Barry for being an apparently helpless in leading the necessary fight. How is it that Japan's insurance companies are non-profit? Well, start with the serious system of regulation that governs the entire health care system there (and in other modern nations). And ask why the anti-regulators here (and that's the entire so-called "right wing") still presume to be taken seriously, despite the outright corruption and disaster that has ensued from their spree of "success" in the last 12 years (and yes I know Clinton signed off on the worst).
You make no sense.

Please piece together an actual argument. Simply asserting that the US should emulate Japan is not an argument. At least not a persuasive one. It's an opinion and a rather empty one at that considering that you will not and cannot argue how to implement such a program in the US despite the vast differences in population size, type of population, and the geographical location of that population. And that doesn't even get into the massive unemployment you'd unleash as the health insurance industry is burned down. You have no argument, only uninformed talking points.
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

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Wrong. The argument is right there. And it's not that we should "be like Japan," but rather that we remove the essential profit motive from a most basic public service. The fact that 120 million aging Japanese who use their health care system fifteen times a year--and do so at half the cost is the argument in itself.
The fact that Americans have in general--like yourself--been programmed to automatically spazz out when the word "socialism" is used is a fact, and plays a major role in allowing our profit oriented paradigm to have been constructed. Similarly your attacks on Medicare and AMTRAK, etc., are cheap shots, to say the least. Try telling it to the millions of citizens who have and are surviving on Medicare, etc.

Moreover, you miss the larger point that while Japan's full coverage is achieved with entirely PRIVATE means, another full coverage sysatem--say, Britain's--is in fact completely PUBLIC. That is, there is no one simple solution, but it's quite clear that full coverage at a low cost is obviously achievable.

What do you actually support, weasel? You keep niggling like a little bitch--and never say what you really support.
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by JMak »

Felix wrote:
Truman wrote: Now I don't know about you, JSC, but if I were that doctor/lawyer fella, I for damn-sure-as-hell wouldn't want some Dr. Death out there somewhere reviewing my personal medical history and using some screwed up formula to determine whether I was worthy of a life-saving procedure. Because the thought occurs that if I had a health record like our doctor/lawyer fella, I might just be a prime candidate for that kind of scrutiny. But that's just me.

seriously bud, you need to stop listening to the wingnut/burning torch/villager crowd.....


http://www.newsweek.com/id/214254

although I've got to hand it to the Reps, they're very effective at scaring the bejeezus out of their primary constituency (which is largely made up of low income, low intelligence southerners)
Garbage article and I'm not persuaded by it. Rationing does occur in the current system but it's according to individual preferences and not by government bureaucrats using crude comparative research data to cover treatment x but not treatment c.

No chemo for older Medicare patients.
Haven't heard this argument from reasonable and responsibile opponents of Obamacare. Sure, firecrackers in the townhall meetings, but not legit opponents.
Illegal immigrants will get free health insurance.
The House bill doesn't give anyone free health care (though under a 1986 law illegals who can't pay do get free emergency care now, courtesy of all us premium paying customers or of hospitals that have to eat the cost).[/quote]

The actual argument made by reasonable opponents of Obamacare is that the proposed legislation, both versions, do not include enough safeguards to prevent illegals from getting coverage. And newsweek hits on the reason why those opponents have a point - the defeat of amendments which would require verification of citizenship. Without that verification we cannot ensure that illegals are prohibited from gaining coverage.
Death panels will decide who lives.
Palin did a disservice, but she tapped into a real point regarding Obamacare notwithstanding Newsweek's unpersuasive bleating. This comparative effectiveness research together with unelected commissions making the hard choices that Obama has already conceded Congress will not (hence Congress being required to vote on their recommendations) will, in fact, lead to access to specific treatments being cut off, i.e., foreclosing to the sick and elderly care and treatment.
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by JMak »

LTS TRN 2 wrote:Wrong. The argument is right there. And it's not that we should "be like Japan," but rather that we remove the essential profit motive from a most basic public service.
There is no argument for that. Show me his argument. Sure, the author says, "First, the insurance companies are nonprofit. Think of that! Of course doctors and staffers make salaries, but there are no shareholders and minimal corporate bloat." But that's it. He doesn't present an argument that a) reveals that America's system is broke because of profiteering; or b) that Japan's system is successful because of a lack of profit motive.
The fact that 120 million aging Japanese who use their health care system fifteen times a year--and do so at half the cost is the argument in itself.
That's an argument supporting the removal of profit motive?? LOL!
The fact that Americans have in general--like yourself--been programmed to automatically spazz out when the word "socialism" is used is a fact, and plays a major role in allowing our profit oriented paradigm to have been constructed. Similarly your attacks on Medicare and AMTRAK, etc., are cheap shots, to say the least. Try telling it to the millions of citizens who have and are surviving on Medicare, etc.
I'm not talking about socialism. I'm talking about general government failure(s).

And I'll gladly tell the millions of Americans that rely on Medicare and SS that each program is broken. It won't surprise any of them, dolt.
Moreover, you miss the larger point that while Japan's full coverage is achieved with entirely PRIVATE means, another full coverage sysatem--say, Britain's--is in fact completely PUBLIC. That is, there is no one simple solution, but it's quite clear that full coverage at a low cost is obviously achievable.
But full coverage is not achieved in the NHS as we see thousands of women forced to give birth in hallways, rigs, etc., simply because there are not enough beds for them in NHS facilities. Full coverage may have been achieved in Japan, however, Japan is a radically different nation than ours for reasons already noted and that you will not acknowledge.
What do you actually support, weasel? You keep niggling like a little bitch--and never say what you really support.
Already stated in other threads. I was, here, addressing your comments. That's my take re: your comments.
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

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More niggling from the weasel who won't say what he stands for. Oh...it's somewhere else!

The fact of health care being oriented to provide health care as opposed to making profit is exactly the point. It is a fundamental philosophical position that has been accepted and utilized successfully by every other modern nation. Our perverse philosophy, however, has best been implemented by the likes of Senator Phil Gramm in his disastrous efforts to dismantle regulation and permit unfettered "free enterprise", etc.

Start with the fact that ALL of the other modern nations with full coverage (and that's all of them) spend about five percent on administrative costs, as opposed to twenty five percent by us. Reflect also upon the fact that these same other modern nations do not pay their CEOs and upper management at astronomically disproportionate rates to the workers, etc. It's a fundamental problem that is no doubt over your head.

The attacks on Britain's health care system have been refuted again and again--but that won't stop your robotic sputtering . Stephen Hawkings himself pointed out that the NHS saved his life. The bottom line is that despite their significant differences is models, all of the other modern nations are enjoying much more and better health care coverage at a much lower cost. And you've nothing with which to refute this basic fact.
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by Felix »

JMak wrote: [
Garbage article and I'm not persuaded by it. Rationing does occur in the current system but it's according to individual preferences and not by government bureaucrats using crude comparative research data to cover treatment x but not treatment c.
look, if you've got something that refutes the points made in the article (other than conjecture, speculation, reading between the lines, etc.) then by all means present it.....
Haven't heard this argument from reasonable and responsibile opponents of Obamacare. Sure, firecrackers in the townhall meetings, but not legit opponents.
seriously, I laffed out loud at that....reasonable and responsible? go ahead, point me in the direction of somebody that presents reasonable and responsible arguments rather than shrilling such idiocies as "they plan on taking 500 billion away from Medicare" and "death panels"......I'd enjoy reading a "reasonable and responsible" argument from anybody that isn't beholding to insurance congolomerates....
The House bill doesn't give anyone free health care (though under a 1986 law illegals who can't pay do get free emergency care now, courtesy of all us premium paying customers or of hospitals that have to eat the cost).
seriously, do you think this ^^^^^ tripe is some sort of argument against the falsehood that Reps have been promoting that illegals will receive the same benefits that legal citizens of the United States would receive?
The actual argument made by reasonable opponents of Obamacare is that the proposed legislation, both versions, do not include enough safeguards to prevent illegals from getting coverage.


link?
This comparative effectiveness research together with unelected commissions making the hard choices that Obama has already conceded Congress will not (hence Congress being required to vote on their recommendations) will, in fact, lead to access to specific treatments being cut off, i.e., foreclosing to the sick and elderly care and treatment.
once again, a link to support of any of these assertions (from anything/anyone that's not in the pocket of the insurance giants) would be greatly appreciated....

did you know that approximately 62% of the personal bankruptcies in 2007 were attributable to health and healthcare related issues-I'd be willing to bet that in 2008 that statistic is the same (if not higher)...and that of all of those bankruptcies, a little under 80% of those people had medical insurance?

Do you think that United Health Group, Wellpoint, or Aetna gives a flying fuck about those frightening statistics? No, what they want to do is to scare you into believing that support for a national healthcare system/healthcare reform will result in the government doling out medical services and the President pulling the plug on your grandmother....and I've got to say, they've done a great job at it...

see, you're scared shitless and you don't even know why
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

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LTS TRN 2 wrote:The REAL point...the MAIN point...that you and your tedious ilk are avoiding like a rat trap is the basic fact that of ALL of the other modern nations (with full coverage, etc. EVERY ONE OF THEM) ours is the ONLY system dedicated to rapacious Free Market profiteering. This is the ENTIRE problem. Or did you gloss over the astonishing fact that in Japan the insurance companies are NON-PROFIT?

And as for your idiotic pseudo Libertarian nonsense about everything government oriented being a failure, Medicare, Social Security, the USPS, Amtrak are all excellent programs which have served untold millions of Americans. You're a disgrace as an American and a idiot to boot.

And what's this OC MIkey chiming in with hollow critiques? I notice you dispute nothing in the piece about Japan--and you're accusing me of empty dismissals?. Of course I agree that the insurance companies are fleecing us up and down, and I share your disgust with Barry for being an apparently helpless in leading the necessary fight. How is it that Japan's insurance companies are non-profit? Well, start with the serious system of regulation that governs the entire health care system there (and in other modern nations). And ask why the anti-regulators here (and that's the entire so-called "right wing") still presume to be taken seriously, despite the outright corruption and disaster that has ensued from their spree of "success" in the last 12 years (and yes I know Clinton signed off on the worst).
The GOP are dopes on this and many other issues. They have sold out to corporate bigwigs to the point that they barely (if at all) represent their constituents anymore. Unfortunately the same could be said of Democrats and the unions. Sad on both counts.

Regarding Japan...

I didn't know anyone still fell for that "non-profit" crap anymore. Tell me Milton Friedman, if there's money left over after salary, overhead and expenses, where does that money go? I worked for a non-profit company in the past (which provided outstanding care, BTW). The "left-over" money was partially invested in new equipment, but much of it was given to the employees in the form of ~$2k annual bonus, with substantially more for managers and executives. I can't say for sure, since I'm not turning Japanese (I really think so), but I imagine they have a similar system over there.

Your choice of well-run gov't programs is laughable. Amtrak has never come CLOSE to breaking even, Social Security only pays you if you're destitute and even then not enough to live on, the USPS is hemmoraging money left and right and medicare is so inadequate that you need to have medicare-supplemental insurance (out of pocket) if you have any sort of long-term condition requiring meds...which pretty much every senior does.
For one thing, in the United States, it's virtually impossible to find out what the prices are. In Japan, it's easy because the prices are the same everywhere. Hardly free market capitalism, which is by this point only a fairy tale told to the little children.
Actually and predictably, you couldn't be more wrong about prices paid to physicians. The vast majority of physicians are paid a percentage of Medicare PAR rates...usually 80%. They can bill $5mil if they want, but they know the health plan will only pay adjusted med par rates. The exception to this is ER docs, who are paid 70% of billed since it's the industry standard and ballpark figures accepted for most services.

With out-of-pocket physician visits, you will pay somewhere between $40-$80, depending on how good the doc is and if the office is in the ghetto or not. In other words, you get the market rate that's based on what comparable doctors' offices in the area charge. Call around your area if you don't believe me.
And really, why should basic public service be a profit oriented industry?
We aren't talking about muni buses and repairing potholes here. America is by far the world-leader in medical innovations in procedures, medicine and equipment. The motivation for profit is what drives companies to achieve greatness. They do so through venture capital, grants and stocks. Take all that funding away and you've got what?

I've been on the uninsured side of the equation and it fucking sucks. There's just no way to gloss it over. I have no problem with the government taking a stab at fixing health care, but they aren't even trying. They're just giving millions free access to a system that's wide open for fraud on a massive scale, all while blatantly lying to your face that it will save money. And why shouldn't they? You and others are cheering them on while they long-dick you in the shitpipe. They're purposely NOT fixing the most egregious problems with the system so that THEIR cohorts can continue to rape the system, all while putting on a face of mock indignation at others like HMOs who are equally as bad. ...yet you cheer them on. If you and your ilk would properly direct your anger at them for setting us up for a colossal clusterfuck and demand that they fix things right the first time, they might actually do what needs to be done. As it is now being ramrodded, errr...presented to congress, it's locked-and-loaded to be the biggest government fuckup of all time. And no, that's not hyperbole.
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by Terry in Crapchester »

No wonder people are so confused about this issue. You have one of Truman's neighbors, Rep. Lynn Jenkins, laughing at an employed single mother without health insurance:



You also have Maria Bartiromo wondering why a 44-year-old Congressman doesn't use Medicare if he likes it so much:

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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by JMak »

LTS TRN 2 wrote:More niggling from the weasel who won't say what he stands for. Oh...it's somewhere else!

The fact of health care being oriented to provide health care as opposed to making profit is exactly the point. It is a fundamental philosophical position that has been accepted and utilized successfully by every other modern nation. Our perverse philosophy, however, has best been implemented by the likes of Senator Phil Gramm in his disastrous efforts to dismantle regulation and permit unfettered "free enterprise", etc.
You're confusing issues. Health care insurance and health care services. Health care is not dispensed to make a buck. Like Obama, you're simply disparaging doctors rather than presenting a legit argument to radically alter 1/7th of the US economy.
Start with the fact that ALL of the other modern nations with full coverage (and that's all of them) spend about five percent on administrative costs, as opposed to twenty five percent by us. Reflect also upon the fact that these same other modern nations do not pay their CEOs and upper management at astronomically disproportionate rates to the workers, etc. It's a fundamental problem that is no doubt over your head.
Well, first, again, you have to establish assertions as facts before presenting them as facts.
Second, part of the administrative cost problem in the US is dorectly attributable to government regulations.
Third, those other modern nations with the supposedly 5% admin cost - like the Medicare admin cost number frequently cited, it's misleading. For example, Medicare's admin costs are so low because Medicare ain't selling insurance just as it's not responsibile for collecting premiums. Other agencies in the US government are performing the admin work typically associated with enrolling, billing, collecting, etc.

So, again, please establish your facts before simply asserting your statements to be factual.
The attacks on Britain's health care system have been refuted again and again--but that won't stop your robotic sputtering . Stephen Hawkings himself pointed out that the NHS saved his life. The bottom line is that despite their significant differences is models, all of the other modern nations are enjoying much more and better health care coverage at a much lower cost. And you've nothing with which to refute this basic fact.
NHS may very well have saved Hawkings life...that doesn't erase the fact that thousands of women every year cannot have their babies in a labor and delovery facility because the NHS lacks the capacity.

This nonsense about all other modern nations enjoying better health care is just that ... nonsense. You have provided nothing to establish this as a fact. As I have already clearly demonstrated here and in other threads...life expectancy and infant mortality are not valid measures of health care system efficacy.

You keep telling me I am niggling, but you're bringing nothing except claims that we Americans hate other modern societies because were racist and xenophobic.
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by JMak »

Felix wrote:look, if you've got something that refutes the points made in the article (other than conjecture, speculation, reading between the lines, etc.) then by all means present it.....
You won't except anything as refuting what you're parroting. I was simply commenting on what Newsweek was addressing. Besides, there's nothing to refute as there are no facts, just opinions on various arguments being made by obamacare opponents.
seriously, I laffed out loud at that....reasonable and responsible? go ahead, point me in the direction of somebody that presents reasonable and responsible arguments rather than shrilling such idiocies as "they plan on taking 500 billion away from Medicare" and "death panels"......I'd enjoy reading a "reasonable and responsible" argument from anybody that isn't beholding to insurance congolomerates....
Like I said, you're not interested in debate...you're a bad faith poster. In your mind anyone opposed to obamacare is beholden to insurance companies. Why do you pretend to be a good faith poster?

In any case, try National Review Online, their Corner blog. You'll see a tug of war between NR's editors and the blog contributors over the various arguments against Obamacare. For example, the editors took Palin to task for the death panels comment, meanwhile, a few contributors pushed back suggesting that while not a good choice of words, the commission's proposed responsibility would result in denying care. You'll also notice that none of them are running the taking $500 billion from Medicare nonsense. Instead, they're arguing about how a public option would not enhance competition, but stifle it and criticizing the costs associated with obamacare, etc.

But you won't, because you're not interested in good faith debate. You hang your hat on the fringe protestors and then serially generalize from there.
seriously, do you think this ^^^^^ tripe is some sort of argument against the falsehood that Reps have been promoting that illegals will receive the same benefits that legal citizens of the United States would receive?
Moron, I already told what the argument is. It ain't that illegals would receive benefits, but that the legislation doesn't provide the safeguards to prevent illegals from becoming eligible for benefits. Again, a good faith poster would acknowledge the distinction and argue it. Instead, you take a fringe argument and generalize it to all Republicans.
link?
Here.
Section 246 states illegal aliens are excluded from receiving federal payments under the Affordable Credits subsidy. But there’s nothing requiring screening of affordable credit recipients, such as through the SAVE system. Rep. Dean Heller (R-Nev.) offered an amendment in the Ways and Means Committee to correct that, but it was defeated along party lines. Senate legislation omits the same eligibility verification requirements that would ensure only lawful immigrants and U.S. citizens benefit under these programs.

Here.
Typically, aliens wishing to access taxpayer-funded benefits via a social program must be vetted through the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements (SAVE) program in order to verify legal status. It is used in determining aid eligibility for a number of governmental programs – e.g. Medicaid, TANF – and you would expect Congress to mandate the use of SAVE in the health care legislation, but the bill does not. U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services explains that the SAVE program is "designed to aid benefit-granting agencies in determining an applicant's immigration status, and thereby ensure that only entitled applicants receive federal, state, or local public benefits."

...

The health care legislation does not affirmatively define who is eligible to receive taxpayer-funded benefits. The section aimed at preventing illegal aliens from accessing the proposed health care subsidy does not adequately address whether, how, and which legal immigrants can take advantage of the system.

There has been very little public debate on whether temporary workers, foreign students, and mere visitors should be eligible. Furthermore, there has been no discussion about whether green-card applicants should benefit – i.e. those who are not yet actually lawful permanent residents, but are waiting on the vetting of their application.


In other words, there are no mechanisms to verify individual eligibility.
once again, a link to support of any of these assertions (from anything/anyone that's not in the pocket of the insurance giants) would be greatly appreciated....
Why do you need a link? We already know that the President proposed and Congressed approved funding for comparative effectiveness research. Obama discussed the Medicare Commission during a prime time Q&A weeks ago where he explicitly said that his expectation is that Congress will be required to vote up or down on the commissions's recommendations. But I'll help your ignorant ass out.

The Commission.
Comparative Effectiveness Research - look at Obama's stimulus bill from earlier this year.
did you know that approximately 62% of the personal bankruptcies in 2007 were attributable to health and healthcare related issues-I'd be willing to bet that in 2008 that statistic is the same (if not higher)...and that of all of those bankruptcies, a little under 80% of those people had medical insurance?
So what? That fact(s) is not an argument for Obamacare. It might be an argument to reform health care insurance, but not for Obamacare.
Do you think that United Health Group, Wellpoint, or Aetna gives a flying fuck about those frightening statistics? No, what they want to do is to scare you into believing that support for a national healthcare system/healthcare reform will result in the government doling out medical services and the President pulling the plug on your grandmother....and I've got to say, they've done a great job at it...
Obama and the Democrats have done a far better job. Whether it's Daschle or Rahm's brother or even Obama himself...this administration has failed to effectively counter arguments that his proposals would massively increase budget deficits, result in rationing of care as determined by unelected government bureaucrats, and that care would be withheld from individuals, again, at the determination of an unelected bureaucrat. And they cannot argue against these criticisms because what the administration is proposing would massively increase deficits, would lead to rationing, and would lead to withholding care.
see, you're scared shitless and you don't even know why
Bad faith posters tend to make poor, ignorant statements like this ^^^
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Terry in Crapchester
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by Terry in Crapchester »

Screw_Michigan wrote:
Terry in Crapchester wrote: You also have Maria Bartiromo wondering why a 44-year-old Congressman doesn't use Medicare if he likes it so much:

Bwahahah! I saw that shit as it happened. I was thinking "What the fuck did she just say? Maybe he's not eligible for it yet?" She's as stupid as she is beautiful, that's for sure, but no surprise there. They all expose themselves eventually. See bikini-shedding teacher.
Is it stupidity or something else? If you'll notice on the clip, she acts like she has him in a "gotcha" moment, even after he answers. Doubtless people are stupid, and they're even more stupid than usual on the issue of health care. I think she was banking on enough of her viewers being stupid enough to think she was actually right. After all, how many of them believe Medicare is not a government program?
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LTS TRN 2
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by LTS TRN 2 »

Weasel, squirm and niggle as you will, you're still nailed to door. The insurance companies are part and parcel of the heath care crisis. They in fact represent the heart of the problem. As has been patiently explained, the example of Japan's success (and this is undisputed, despite your tedious denials) is squarely based on their insurance companies being NON-PROFIT. Barry has been disparaged for attacking insurance companies, not doctors.

Shouldn't you be packing a BB gun at a town hall meeting while bleating about "bad faith"? :meds:
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by JMak »

LTS, look clown, the shit article you presented does not provide any argument or facts supporting the argument that Japan's success (accepting your author's perspective is accurate) rests solely on the non-profit nature of the system as opposed to other factors. That argument is simply not presented.

And, dipshit, you've proven that you have no business in this discussion. You have no take, you are a parrot. And you dont know even basic elements of this debate.
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LTS TRN 2
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by LTS TRN 2 »

Oh look, Avi is back from his rehab clinic. Say, Avi, if your kidneys are failing or just not up to speed, there's these rabbis in New Jersey selling organs that they buy cheap from impoverished third-worlders and sell to desperate fucks like you--if you've got $50,000. Livers and lungs can be arranged. Send a private e-mail. :wink:


As for the obvious and embarrassing full-court press against health care reform launched by every Glenn Beck/Limpdick minion with a computer and a gun, the facts concerning Japan and the other modern nations stand undisputed, the case plainly made. While the insurance companies are of course the source of the rapacious profiteering fucking up the whole system, many doctors also share the blame for their own systemic policies of extra tests, shuttled patients, and of course more and more drug regimens prescribed for conditions that should be treated holistically and/or homeopathically.

Weasel, your childish niggling is tedious like a moth fluttering about a light bulb, but you're obviously in no position to make explain why you've been shilling for drug companies, HMOs and insurance companies. What the fuck are you?
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Felix
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by Felix »

JMak wrote:
Section 246 states illegal aliens are excluded from receiving federal payments under the Affordable Credits subsidy. But there’s nothing requiring screening of affordable credit recipients, such as through the SAVE system. Rep. Dean Heller (R-Nev.) offered an amendment in the Ways and Means Committee to correct that, but it was defeated along party lines. Senate legislation omits the same eligibility verification requirements that would ensure only lawful immigrants and U.S. citizens benefit under these programs.


Typically, aliens wishing to access taxpayer-funded benefits via a social program must be vetted through the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements (SAVE) program in order to verify legal status. It is used in determining aid eligibility for a number of governmental programs – e.g. Medicaid, TANF – and you would expect Congress to mandate the use of SAVE in the health care legislation, but the bill does not. U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services explains that the SAVE program is "designed to aid benefit-granting agencies in determining an applicant's immigration status, and thereby ensure that only entitled applicants receive federal, state, or local public benefits."

...

The health care legislation does not affirmatively define who is eligible to receive taxpayer-funded benefits. The section aimed at preventing illegal aliens from accessing the proposed health care subsidy does not adequately address whether, how, and which legal immigrants can take advantage of the system.



see, this is about as disingenuous as it gets......Reps aren't against national healthcare because they're afraid of a few illegals getting through the system, they don't want it because their masters have told them to fight the public option at all costs

sure, they'd support a system whereby the government was to subsidize health care costs for low income people, because of course, that would raise the profits of the health care companies to obscene levels....you think they make boatloads of cash right now, just wait.....

you know, the Reps who are now screaming that they've got a better plan had 6 years to enact health care legislation back when Bush was president, but they sat with their thumbs stuck up their asses, pretending that there was no crisis....seriously, if you don't think that 70 percent of the personal bankruptcies in this country are attributable to health care related issues is a crisis, then there's simply no reasoning with you
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Tom In VA
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Re: No Death Panels, Eh?

Post by Tom In VA »

Felix wrote:because their masters have told them
Same old boring, junior high bullshit I see.

Hey, people who can't afford for themselves a lifestyle that is conducive to healthy living and access to healthy resources should be right up your alley. Darwin, remember ?

The strong survive, the weak struggle, and the weakest perish. That's the way it goes. What are you going religious on us all of a sudden ? And to top that off, the worst possible kind of religious. I knew you would come around some day, but don't come around too much dude. It's still wrong to foist your notions of morals upon those that hold different morals than you. Remember those days, when you despised that ? I do.
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