T1B

Now that the first month of the season is officially in the books, I think we are going to start to hear the talking heads pimp certain players for the Heisman. So who are the rightful candidates? Before the year started, it was basically a 4 player race between the following:

Tim Tebow (praise be his name)
Sam Bradford
Colt McCoy
Javid Best

Bradford was basically eliminated after his shoulder seperation in the first week and Best was eliminated because he plays for Cal, meaning he pissed himself in the one big game he's played so far.

McCoy and Tebow have beaten their bunch of also rans, so they are in the race. I would argue that if Tebow (pbhn) wasn't named Tebow (pbhn), he wouldn't even be in the discussion.

So who should be in the discussion? Much was made of Jacory Harris, but he looked awful against VaTech. Dez Bryant made his case so far, and WR's typically don't feel the pain of a loss in these types of races the way RB's and QB's do. Casey Keenum has put up some silly numbers, but will voters ever really consider a UH QB again after Andre Ware and the Klinglers?

Right now, I think the top three candidates, in no particular order, are:

Tim Tebow (pbhn)
Colt McCoy
Jimmy Clausen

Yeah, it might be a slight homer pick, but Clausen is developing into one of the top QB's in college football. He has 10 TD's on the year, vs. 1 Int, and has had 3 other TD's taken away by questionable calls/reviews. He has really only made two bad throws all year, one because Tate broke the route off to a comeback when he shouldn't have, and another where the WR didn't make a very good play on the ball. His accuracy his fantastic, and he came in when injured and led his team from a come from behind victory against Purdue. He has some big tests left on the schedule, and he will be doing it without his best receiver. But if he keeps up this pace, there is no doubt he should be in the conversation.

Who else should be in the conversation?

Aaron Corp?

In all seriousness, barring injury or catastrophic meltdown this is now a two horse race. It was always only ever going to be a three horse race, but injury took down one of the three horses.

So, now the voters are left with this quandry:

-Give McCoy the Lifetime Achievement Award, completing the Heisman QB Triumverate of Tebow-Bradford-McCoy. If Texas runs the table and McCoy looks good in the RRS then this is a fairly safe bet.

-In the same way that horse racing is just dying to see another Triple Crown winner college football would like nothing better than to see Tebow win three out of four MNCs, including a second Heisman following a perfect season. Then ESPN can officially declare Him the Greatest Human Being - And Even That's Debatable - To Ever Walk The Face Of The College Gameday Set.

I could definitely see TPTB wanting to crown him one last time before he ascends to heaven.

If both Florida and Texas run the table my guess is it'll go to McCoy, since his stats will overwhelm Tebow's, and he hasn't won one yet.

There are no other candidates.

If Tebow feels the lingering effects of a concussion, that could hamper his already pedestrian stats. If Texas were to be knocked out of the MNC hunt, that would likely put an end to McCoy's.

Not that I think he has much of a shot... but we need more names in the discussion...

Tony Pike looks damn good so far.

umm...Tate Forcier?

the kid from Houston should be in the conversation. i know Go Coogs started a thread about it in late summer and i was among the "you can't compare numbers BCS wonks"....but, he's 2-0 in the Big XII South.

i don't think Bradford is totally out of it. though, it means running the table which may or may not happen. Gresham is a big loss for OU. if UT wins the RRS, it's McCoy's to lose.

Killian wrote: Case Keenum has put up some silly numbers, but will voters ever really consider a UH QB again after Andre Ware and the Klinglers?

that shouldn't have anything to do with this year. if Darrell Scott was averaging 200 yards a game should voters hold Rashaan Salaam against him. Timmy Chang, they could hold against him or Colt Brennan.

King Crimson wrote:

Killian wrote: Case Keenum has put up some silly numbers, but will voters ever really consider a UH QB again after Andre Ware and the Klinglers?

that shouldn't have anything to do with this year. if Darrell Scott was averaging 200 yards a game should voters hold Rashaan Salaam against him. Timmy Chang, they could hold against him or Colt Brennan.

It shouldn't, but it will. If Darrell Scott put up those kind of numbers, he would be doing it against other teams in the Big 12. A conference that has also produced Barry Sanders, Adrian Peterson, Thurman Thomas, Billy Sims, Ahman Green, etc. Who has the WAC produced as QB's? Steve Young and Jim McMahon?

It's just reality. There are certain requirements which must first be met in order to win a Heisman these days, and most of them have nothing to do with stats.

Keenum plays for Houston, a team few consider credible, in a conference nobody considers credible. His numbers do not and will not matter, not in a year where a guy just up the road is a senior stud QB for a marquee program who will likely go to the title game.

Bama's QB is a complete non-factor. Nobody in their right mind looks at McElroy and says to themselves, 'Hmmm. Tim Tebow, Colt McCoy or Greg McElroy, for the Heisman. Yeah, I can see giving it to the freshman. He's the reason for Bama's success.'

Jahvid Best is done. Heisman winners never come from teams who got completely waxed in their biggest game of the year, and the Heisman has now become almost the exclusive domain of marquee program QBs; not RBs or players at other positions.

Remember, people, this award has always been Tebow's, Bradford's and McCoy's to lose. Nobody can take it from them; they have to give it up.

Tebow is measured so completely differently than anybody else that his stats almost don't matter. His Heisman worthiness is based on fucking shouting at his teammates - something many other players from all across the land do every day - and on Florida's success as a team. Nevermind that the guy probably isn't even among the ten best players on his own team; he's Tim Tebow, dammit! He's a LEADER, like no other!

Colt McCoy plays for Texas. He's the QB Who Got Screwed while playing for The Team Which Got Screwed. If Texas runs the table then he gets both the Sympathy Vote and the Lifetime Achievemant Vote, and since he plays for a marquee program his candidacy will be impossible to overcome by anyone who doesn't turn water into G.

Everybody else has to hope for McCoy's and Tebow's teams to lose enough to miss out on the title game; if they don't then nobody else will even seriously enter the picture, regardless.

Claussen is a year away from serious consideration, no matter what he does this year. He's only now overcoming the reputation of being considered a massive bust with a big mouth. He needs to have a breakout season first before he can become a serious candidate.

He also needs to not be banging heads against seniors like Tebow and McCoy.

If ND can somehow beat USC this year and otherwise look great all year, yeah, next year Claussen will enter the season as the Heisman favorite - unless Bradford comes back.

The other thing you just know is coming is the Barkley For The Heisman hype. Should Barkley look good against Cal, and should USC run the table and win another BCS bowl game with Barkley looking great in that bowl game, yep, book it: He will enter next season with a ton of Heisman hype.

The guy is everything the Heisman hype machine requires. He's literally the golden boy.

If USC crushes ND again, and Barkley looks good there, forget about Claussen. Just go ahead and pencil in Barkley in his place, for next season.

That's a lot of "ifs," I realize that, but when we're talking about reality and the Heisman hype machine, Barkley fits the reqirements to a tee.

Killian wrote: Who has the WAC produced as QB's? Steve Young and Jim McMahon?

Klinger and Ware played in the Southwest Conference. and BYU is currently in the MWC (which is basically the old WAC after the 16 team abortion WAC of a few years ago). so, i think that's even more reason to discount the comparison (possibly in favor of your argument)....but, the kid did beat OSU in Stillwater and Tech. the latest two "it" teams to win the South/conference other than OU or UT.

By season's end the Okie St and Taco Tech wins will be viewed in their proper perspective: "Big deal, it was just Okie St and Taco Tech, a couple of mid-pack, defenseless also-rans from the Big XII."

Van wrote:Claussen is a year away from serious consideration, no matter what he does this year. He's only now overcoming the reputation of being considered a massive bust with a big mouth. He needs to have a breakout season first before he can become a serious candidate.

Why does he have a reputation for having a big mouth? Because of where he chose to make his college announcement? That kid hasn't said shit to the media to give him that reputation, yet he has it. Same thing with him being a bust. At least that one I can see, a little. His record as a full time starter sucked ass, but his play was about what anyone would expect out of a freshman and a sophomore. Hell, his stats were better than Matthew Stafford's in most all categories. The difference is that Stafford played in the 'grinder surrounded by talent, and Clausen didn't and didn't have dick his Freshman year, and only slightly more last season.

The Heisman is about hype and expectations. If those who are hyped fail to meet their expectations, then they don't stand a chance, fair or not. If someone who isn't hyped exceedes what little expectations were placed on them, they get vaulted to the front of the list.

And this will likely be Clausen's only shot. I would be flabbergasted if he stayed for his senior, especially if he keeps up this level of play.

Killian, fair or not, it's simply perception. It's always simply perception.

Tim Tebow is the be all-end all case study in the efficacy of perception.

I'm agreeing with you, but where does this perception come from? The same ones that blast the kids are the ones who put that perception there in the first place.

I know the Heisman is a popularity contest, and I've come to terms with that. What's interesting is how it has evolved over the years. I'm reading a great book right now by Jim Dent (author of "The Junction Boys") called "Resurrection". It's the story behind Ara's first year at Notre Dame and how it essentially saved the football program. Anyway, John Huarte won the 1964 Heisman Trophy as a Senior, and he had yet to even letter at Notre Dame. He replaced the returning starter at QB from 1963 and based on his one year alone, he won the award.

Van wrote:By season's end the Okie St and Taco Tech wins will be viewed in their proper perspective: "Big deal, it was just Okie St and Taco Tech, a couple of mid-pack, defenseless also-rans from the Big XII."

but that's an entirely different issue than Klinger or Ware as a comparison. who has Clausen beat that's so much better than OSU in Stillwater or Tech?

No one, yet, but he also doesn't play in a system that is known for inflating QB's numbers.

Killian wrote:No one, yet, but he also doesn't play in a system that is known for inflating QB's numbers.

see, here you have a qualitative comparison (wins vs. BCS teams) not a quantitative one (numbers).

wins, Keenum has a couple decent ones.

Clausen plays in a system that is known for getting it's coached fired and not winning bowl games since i was in college? you wanna sign off on that?

the system that Mouse Brown ran at UH in the 80's has no bearing on what Briles or Sumlin run at UH.

in high school, we ran Bill Yeoman's Houston Veer. while i read the other day that Nevada's "Pistol" uses Veer basics, I'm still convinced it's a mediocre offense. Does Yeoman, longtime Houston coach, factor into consideration of a Keenum Heisman invite if it were to happen today?

King Crimson wrote:Clausen plays in a system that is known for getting it's coached fired and not winning bowl games since i was in college? you wanna sign off on that?

Clausen has only played in Charlie Weis' system. He hasn't been fired and is 1-2 in bowl games.

King Crimson wrote:the system that Mouse Brown ran at UH in the 80's has no bearing on what Briles or Sumlin run at UH.

in high school, we ran Bill Yeoman's Houston Veer. while i read the other day that Nevada's "Pistol" uses Veer basics, I'm still convinced it's a mediocre offense. Does Yeoman, longtime Houston coach, factor into consideration of a Keenum Heisman invite if it were to happen today?

No, I just used two UH QB's, one of which one the award and one who didn't. In place of Klingler, you could use Ty Detmer. If you also use Klingler, you could just as easily say Colt Brennan or any of the Taco Tech QB's.

Killian wrote:

King Crimson wrote:Clausen plays in a system that is known for getting it's coached fired and not winning bowl games since i was in college? you wanna sign off on that?

Clausen has only played in Charlie Weis' system. He hasn't been fired and is 1-2 in bowl games.

King Crimson wrote:the system that Mouse Brown ran at UH in the 80's has no bearing on what Briles or Sumlin run at UH.

in high school, we ran Bill Yeoman's Houston Veer. while i read the other day that Nevada's "Pistol" uses Veer basics, I'm still convinced it's a mediocre offense. Does Yeoman, longtime Houston coach, factor into consideration of a Keenum Heisman invite if it were to happen today?

No, I just used two UH QB's, one of which one the award and one who didn't. In place of Klingler, you could use Ty Detmer. If you also use Klingler, you could just as easily say Colt Brennan or any of the Taco Tech QB's.

you are confusing me now. because you are the holding the past against Keenum but not against Clausen. I say Keenum has beaten two teams as good or better than anyone Clausen has beat. Out of Conference. Conference doesn't matter today with Houston. They are winning out of conference.

Van brought up Klinger....and i said that Brennan and Chang were better comparisons. You discounted him for "systems" and "numbers". and, i think, if it were to happen today Keenen deserves talking about for an invite.

I'm not discounting anyone. I listed players and put the reasons why the writers would possibly discount them, while giving my reasons for Clausen.

Keenum, Pike and any other mid-major will have to overcome an inherent bias. Keenum beat two BCS conference teams, as you said, that are as good or better than the two that Clausen has beat. If he beats USC, Pitt, Washington, Stanford, BC, etc., then his wins will look that much more impressive.

Teams who seem to produce "system" QB's, tend to be discounted unless they are coming from a traditionally powerful program. Other teams, specifically schools like Houston and BYU, will have a huge uphill battle to fight, no matter how good the player. Keenum deserves to be in the discussion, for sure.

I didn't bring up Klinger, K.C. Someone else brought him up.

Anyway, the difference between Claussen and Keenum is obvious: ND, vs Houston. The star QB for a successful ND team is automatically a Heisman candidate. The star QB for a successful Houston team automatically is not a candidate.

Lip service from the voters is the most such a guy will ever receive.

That's just the way it is these days. Houston is a long-established non-entity in BTPCF, and they play in a popgun league, so the numbers their QB puts up in their gimicky offense are irrelevant in terms of the Heisman. In today's Heisman race any serious contender has to be a star QB for a successful marquee program.

:cue Bruce Hornsby:

if i missed the "what's deserved" and "what's real in terms of the media system", i stand corrected. and not corrected.

i never thought Keenum would win, just that he deserves talk/invite.

i thought that was the topic until Notre Dame fan told me it wasn't. and that mid-majors not in the midwest aren't underrated or made better by newish scholly limits.

If MAC teams had beaten decent Big 10 teams we'd be hearing about how great, underrated they are....but when it happens in the Southwest it means the other BCS teams are middle of the pack in the Big XII.

Sam, if we're to talk about who should be in the race then that's a completely different topic.

The Heisman has evolved into this: 1-The award which goes to the favorite QB of a successful marquee program. 1A-In rare instances, substitute star RB for QB.

That's all it is. It's an award to the most popular 'skill position' player of a successful marquee program.

You wanna talk about who should be in contention to win it, considering the award is supposed to go to "The Most Outstanding Player In College Football."

Okay...

Who's Florida's best player? It ain't Tim Tebow. It's likely Brandon Spikes.

Who's 'Bama's? I guaran-goddamn-tee you it ain't Greg McElroy.

The best player for Texas last season was Brian Orakpo, not Colt McCoy.

No way in hell Troy Smith was the Buckeyes' best player.

So, how do we define "most outstanding?" Myself, I'd just as soon go with "best player," not "most popular QB or RB for Florida/USC/ND/OU/Texas."

Problem is, it's difficult to measure some players, whose stats either aren't relevant or measurable.

For many defenders the simple fact is that sacks, tackles and interceptions are about the only stats people can get their heads around, and those stats simply carry very little visceral weight when compared to the flashier and more well-known rushing yards or TDs thrown.

I recall one year where Hugh Green for Pittsburgh was practically everybody's consensus best player in the game, but because he played defense he never had a prayer. No lineman in the modern era will ever have a prayer, and how many times were they the best player on their team?

Who was Bama's best player last season? A lineman.

QBs don't do shit when they're running for their lives or lying on their back. VY's uniform was barely dirty by the end of that USC game.

Bah.

K.C., you're missing the obvious point: Okie St and Taco Tech are mid-pack, defenseless teams in the Big XII.

Okie St is the very definition of mid-pack. Minus one fluke season last year, so's Taco Tech.

They aren't the bottom feeders, and they're not the top dogs; they never are. They're mid-pack teams, nearly every year. This year looks to be no different.

Van wrote:K.C., you're missing the obvious point: Okie St and Taco Tech are mid-pack, defenseless teams in the Big XII.

Okie St is the very definition of mid-pack. Minus one fluke season last year, so's Taco Tech.

They aren't the bottom feeders, and they're not the top dogs; they never are. They're mid-pack teams, nearly every year. This year looks to be no different.

did you miss where i said they were the "it" team in the South?

who wins the South every year versus the fashion cavalier pick?

however, OSU beat the Meat-Grinder and UGA this year and Tech buried Cal in the Holiday Bowl a few years ago. so, to say "never" ain't right. there are a lot of "mid-pack" teams in the PAC. when UO loses to Boise and then spanks Cal...

K.C., playing in the Holiday Bowl for a team from the Big XII means they didn't win the Big XII.

By "mid-pack" I mean middle of the pack in the Big XII, not nationally. Taco Tech and Okie St nearly always occupy the middle rungs on the Big XII's totem pole. One of them is nearly certain to be no better than fourth in their own division, nearly every season, with the other usually being no better than third.

That makes them "mid-pack."

Van wrote:K.C., playing in the Holiday Bowl for a team from the Big XII means they didn't win the Big XII.

By "mid-pack" I mean middle of the pack in the Big XII, not nationally. Taco Tech and Okie St nearly always occupy the middle rungs on the Big XII's totem pole. One of them is nearly certain to be no better than fourth in their own division, nearly every season, with the other usually being no better than third.

That makes them "mid-pack."

get that. but, while we all know winning the Heisman is a media event for the best player on one of the top two teams times a lot of jerkoff....the invites sometimes do actually include guys who maybe play in lesser conferences...like Timmy Chang. that's all I'm saying about Keenum. PLUS, he beat two BCS teams this year from "supposedly" the toughest division in BTPCF. already. before the conference play.

fuck, if the guy played for Bowling Green or Fresno or Syracuse we'd all be sucking all three of his dicks on underrated mid-major geography dick.

Like I said, Jahvid Best is done.

Killian wrote: Why does he have a reputation for having a big mouth? Because of where he chose to make his college announcement? That kid hasn't said shit to the media to give him that reputation, yet he has it.

have to agree with killian here. i hate claussen just because he looks like he does, not to mention he plays for notre dame, but you can't hate him for how he conducts himself with the media. he does look like a bit of a cunt after touchdowns when he gives that "yeah, i farted" look to the crowd while nodding his head. for some reason, i don't mind when forcier does the same thing.

Van wrote:K.C., playing in the Holiday Bowl for a team from the Big XII means they didn't win the Big XII.

By "mid-pack" I mean middle of the pack in the Big XII, not nationally. Taco Tech and Okie St nearly always occupy the middle rungs on the Big XII's totem pole. One of them is nearly certain to be no better than fourth in their own division, nearly every season, with the other usually being no better than third.

That makes them "mid-pack."

with ATM in the tank, OSU and Tech are 3rd best team in the Big XII South, and thereby probably the 3rd best team in the Big XII.

at least OSU showed up against OU last year and Tech beat UT (though it never happened according to Texas fan because somehow the logic works that the team we beat by ten blew out the team we lost to means the team lost to isn't really part of the tie-breaker anymore--and a ten point W is a statement game and a 6 point loss is "just barely")

Tech and or OSU could have won the Big XII North last few years....so i'd say all things being equal, being better than the North, they are top 3-4 in the Big XII. not mid-pack. not elite, but better than "mid". Mid i reserve for Missouri.

KC,

I'm not trying to play "haha, gotcha!", but without doing research, do you know who Dan LeFevour is?

Killian wrote:KC,

I'm not trying to play "haha, gotcha!", but without doing research, do you know who Dan LeFevour is?

Michigan directional QB.

That was the 2nd player in NCAA history to throw for 3000 yards and rush for 1000 in the same year. He also just set the MAC record for total offense. I doubt he will get a sniff of the Heisman this year.

Killian wrote:That was the 2nd player in NCAA history to throw for 3000 yards and rush for 1000 in the same year. He also just set the MAC record for total offense. I doubt he will get a sniff of the Heisman this year.

c'mon.....did he beat two Big XII South teams. both of whom are better than anyone Clausen has beaten? Houston had those wins out of conference and ND is way too cool to have conference play...so conference affiliation doesn't matter....hey, right?

It had nothing to do with Clausen, just your assertion that if Keenum was playing in the MAC and had knocked off some mid level Big 10 team, we would be hearing all about him. I disagree, because no one is hearing about LeFevour.

Killian wrote:It had nothing to do with Clausen, just your assertion that if Keenum was playing in the MAC and had knocked off some mid level Big 10 team, we would be hearing all about him. I disagree, because no one is hearing about LeFevour.

yeah, OK. I'm just saying we hear a lot about the MAC teams are underrated when they beat Big Ten teams OOC. But a team loses to Houston (a former bigtime conference member, though mostly regional), and the kid gets no love for his W's and the Big XII team sucks. Fresno is underrated when they knock off Wisconsin every year.

Killian wrote:It had nothing to do with Clausen, just your assertion that if Keenum was playing in the MAC and had knocked off some mid level Big 10 team, we would be hearing all about him. I disagree, because no one is hearing about LeFevour.

stop with the mid-level, where is ND in a BCS conference the last 20 years?

Okie State and Tech have been to decent bowls in the last 2-3 years. they aren't the Purdues or Illinois' of the world. that's Missouri and Colorado.

Illinois went to the Rose Bowl two years ago and Purdue has a BCS win under their belt.

Killian wrote:Illinois went to the Rose Bowl two years ago and Purdue has a BCS win under their belt.

Okie State and Tech have been in the top 10 in the last two years. Kansas has a BCS win.

the Rose Bowl doesn't mean squat to me. that's a fetish midwesterners and Pac 10's have.

in the old bowl system, the MNC was decided most years in the Orange Bowl or the Sugar. if ND was involved, maybe Cotton and later the Fiesta.