T1B

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:23 am**

...for some youtube clips which really show Garcia kicking ass. Something jazzy, or even something bluegrass...whatever; anything which really showcases the best of his guitar playing.

I just haven't ever heard anything from the guy that ever blew me away. Thing is, there are too many people I respect who assure me that he's a monster, and that I just haven't heard the right things from him, so I really do want to see it.

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:14 am**

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:17 am**

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:21 am**

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:30 am**

Thing about Jerry is he wasn't necessarily a "solo" act with the Dead. The Dead, together, kicked the ass of any band in my opinion. Like watching a hockey team with chemistry "thread the needle" and score a goal, they weaved in and out of songs starting from earthy shit to spaced out wild shit. In between, you'd hear these explosions of inspiration and could feel the energy as each player picked up the others groove and went with it.

They were a fucking Team.

Jerry's solo stuff is awesome, to me, but like Jerry said "It's like licorice, not everyone likes licorice but the people who do REALLY like licorice".

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:46 am**

Tom, after listening to those three clips, I'm not sure we're on the same page here. I'm looking for examples of virtuoso soloing, where he's supposed to be this amazing lead guitarist in a "jam band" sense.

Those first two clips were just plain awful, in terms of soloing - tone, phrasing, chops, execution - and the banjo clip, well, there certainly wasn't anything awe inspiring there.

Dins knows what I'm talking about. He's told me that Garcia has chops right up there with anybody else, and that the guy can play just about anything. I know Dins knows what world class soloing is about, and he still says Garcia is up there, so I'm looking for examples of whatever it is Dins was referring to.

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:54 am**

Tom, that "Georgia On My Mind" is awful too. Besides his tone being horrible, man, he's even going out of tune. He's slurring notes and sharping them, and just plain missing...and it's not like he's playing anything too difficult there either. He's just sort of slowly and aimlessly meandering around, and he's not even accurate when doing such simple things.

Listen to your Warren Hayes clips. Listen to those SRV clips. Listen to most any Duane Allman clip. I'm talking about something along those lines.

There has to be more to Garcia than what you're showing me here. There just has to be.

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:21 am**

Entirely subjective, on both sides. Yours and mine Papa Willie.

The thing about the Dead, is if you've seen them enough or heard enough bootlegs you've heard them get off, not get off, not get off as much. Frankly, I could take your opinion on the Dead and apply it to the ABB exactly, mostly because I've heard more Live Dead than I have ABB.

Garcia as a virtuoso ?, Van, although a smarmy fagula, is correct, I don't know enough about music to say he was a virtuoso. He was a hard working, working class musician, one with whom many liked to play.

The thing about the Dead, and Garcia in particular, is that he wasn't 100% perfect. Far from it. There were times in the band existence when they actually considered getting rid of him. His drug use impacted his playing so bad. He practically had to relearn guitar after a coma in the 80's.

I've listened to hours and hours and hours of Dead. Same songs. I know when they're on and when they're off - in my perspective - when I FEEL it. I've listened to them drunk, stoned, tripped out and STONE COLD sober and the same aspects of "FEELING IT" as I'm driving down the road or sitting here typing.

I mistook our resident expert on everything, Van's, request as a sincere request. I was wrong. It was not. He was using it as an opportunity to take his musical cock out of his pants and measure it against Dinsdale's. He should have sent Dins a PM. The offerings I was able to cull from YouTube on short notice are probably not THE BEST. I didn't take the time to filter it through. I was limited by what was available and what I knew might represent the jazzier side, the rock side, the R&B side, and the bluegrass side of Jerry.

Jerry lived longer than Duane. Bode Jerry.
Jerry made a comfortable living playing guitar instead of pretending to know all there is about it and trying to convince people how great he is and how much he knows about it on an Internet Message Board. Bode Jerry.

Nice troll Van. You fag.

You throwin me back in the water ? I've got more Warren Haynes to look up.

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:33 am**

Judy Garland wrote: There has to be more to Garcia than what you're showing me here. There just has to be.

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:37 am**

Dr_Phibes wrote:
Judy Garland wrote: There has to be more to Garcia than what you're showing me here. There just has to be.

WTF?

:?

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:41 am**

well it's like Van was wishing himself back to kansas. seems like a decent analogy.

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:48 am**

Tom, I'm talking about world class, relatively low gain and diverse things, like these...

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:01 am**

Tom, you're completely off base here. You'd have to know about the conversations I've had with Dins, wherein he told me how I just didn't know enough about Garcia and the Dead to know that yes, the guy was in fact world class. Dins knew what we were talking about, including chops, and I can guarantee you he wouldn't have offered the clips you gave me as examples of what he was talking about.

My purpose here wasn't to troll. My purpose is never to troll. I genuinely want to see something from the guy that jibes with the things I've heard about him. My assumption is that these days just about everything under the sun is available on youtube, including clips of Garcia truly getting off on some real soloing, and not just inaccurate, uninspired meandering.

I don't know the Dead well enough to know what pieces to look for, so I'm asking people who do know them to hook me up with "The Best Of Jerry Garcia's Guitar Playing."

The things you posted simply don't cut it. They're just not very good, especially the first two. Even I've heard better from the guy than those clips, and I haven't heard all that much from him.

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:03 am**

I remember linking Van to Danny Gatton awhile ago (I think it was Van).

Anyway, I understand what you're up to now Van, no need to explain - but I'm glad you did via sharing some Gatton and other musicians - unlike you - my mind is open and I'm not trying to impress anyone.

Still, if I had to fill a MP3 player up ... ABB Filmore East and Eat a Peach would be on there along with a ton of Dead Stuff, Iron Maiden, Slayer, U2, Chieftains, The Pogues and now ..... dare I say it .... I'm almost afraid to .......

No, I won't.

As opposed to Danny Gatton. (Okay "In my Room" would be on it).

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:08 am**

'Spray, the fact that the Dead were a jam band means there should be endless examples of the guy jamming. That's exactly what I'm talking about: jamming. That's what I want to see. I don't need to see him quietly mumbling into the mic as he plinks and plonks on his acoustic. I'm talking about those extended jam solos for which the Dead were famous.

Some of the best soloing occurs as part of a "team" during extended jam sessions - jazz, blues or fusion, anyone? Hello? - so to say that Garcia's solos wouldn't necessarily compare with these other guys because he was in a jam band, well, that argument holds no water at all.

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:16 am**

Tom wrote:Anyway, I understand what you're up to now Van,

Clearly, no, you don't.

no need to explain

Apparently not, since you're intentionally not getting it even when I do.

- but I'm glad you did via sharing some Gatton and other musicians - unlike you - my mind is open and I'm not trying to impress anyone.

So, when I ask for clips of something I haven't heard before, that indicates to you that your mind is open and my mind is closed.

Conversely, when you gratuitously mention that you're open minded - for no apparent reason other than to pat yourself on the back - you follow it up by saying you're not trying to impress anyone.

Gotcha.

Not one of your better showings here, champ.

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:23 am**

Like I told you Van (more or less), I was more focused on the different types of tunes as opposed to discerning the overall quality of Jerry's playing when I posted the tapes.

I don't think anyone - even Dins - is going to be able to convince you. I know I cannot as my musical vocabulary is severely lacking - I know what makes my hairs stand up and bristle, that's about it.

The stuff you're probably looking for is predominantly in the late 60's early 70's. The problem is, with the Dead, as with many bands' LIVE recordings that haven't been editted and produced and officially released ... it's messy. You need to do a little digging. But remember, gold and diamonds, are found in the dirt.

You see you're probably right, I call it "noodling" you call it "meandering" and I preferred nothing more than listen to the Dead "noodle" around together and when they found something and it clicked .... it clicked big time.

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:35 am**

Van wrote:
- but I'm glad you did via sharing some Gatton and other musicians - unlike you - my mind is open and I'm not trying to impress anyone.
So, when I ask for clips of something I haven't heard before, that indicates to you that your mind is open and my mind is closed.

Musically your mind is closed in the sense that it has to be PERFECT. When I say my mind is open; if a guitarist I'm listening to live makes a mistake I UNDERSTAND and appreciate what he was going for. I don't mind, doing the dirty. You want everything CLEAN, PRECISE. That's what I meant Van.

The impress anyone comment was a jab. You know you like to be Alpha Dog in all things ... especially music. It's no secret and it's made for some great reads.

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:47 am**

Tom In VA wrote:
Van wrote:
- but I'm glad you did via sharing some Gatton and other musicians - unlike you - my mind is open and I'm not trying to impress anyone.
So, when I ask for clips of something I haven't heard before, that indicates to you that your mind is open and my mind is closed.
Musically your mind is closed in the sense that it has to be PERFECT. When I say my mind is open; if a guitarist I'm listening to live makes a mistake I UNDERSTAND and appreciate what he was going for. I don't mind, doing the dirty. You want everything CLEAN, PRECISE. That's what I meant Van.

The impress anyone comment was a jab. You know you like to be Alpha Dog in all things ... especially music. It's no secret and it's made for some great reads.

Tom, two of my all time favorite guitar players are Jimi Hendrix and Jimmy Page, neither of whom will ever be remotely associated with the terms "clean," "precise," "accurate" or "mistake free." They were two of the sloppiest guitarists ever.

The same goes for Jeff Beck, who makes mistakes left and right, and always has.

Unfortunately, the clips you provided show Garcia being the worst kind of sloppy. He wasn't missing because he was going for something creative or difficult, like Beck so often does. No, he was missing because on some of those occasions he really didn't know where he wanted to go, and his overall technique was just plain bad. He was sharping and flatting basic bends, and he was clamming simple slides and slurs.

I'm sure he was generally better than that. To quote Dr. Phibes and Dorothy, he just had to be. He couldn't have built his legend on playing like that.

Fuck, I sure hope not.

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:49 am**

Tom In VA wrote:Like I told you Van (more or less), I was more focused on the different types of tunes as opposed to discerning the overall quality of Jerry's playing when I posted the tapes.

Why would you do that, in response to this very specific request...

Van wrote:anything which really showcases the best of his guitar playing.

I just haven't ever heard anything from the guy that ever blew me away. Thing is, there are too many people I respect who assure me that he's a monster, and that I just haven't heard the right things from him, so I really do want to see it.

I didn't ask for "quality of the tunes." I asked for examples of monster guitar playing from the guy, which might blow me away.

I thought I was pretty clear about it.

I don't think anyone - even Dins - is going to be able to convince you. I know I cannot as my musical vocabulary is severely lacking - I know what makes my hairs stand up and bristle, that's about it.

Dins is well aware of virtuoso guitar playing/players, so when we were talking about speed and chops and the ability to kick ass across a wide variety of genres he wasn't merely referring to slow, plinking meandering. He was telling me that Garcia could seriously kick ass as a lead guitarist.

I'm looking for examples of him kicking ass, at a world class level. I've never even heard him kick ass at a basic bar band level, but I have no doubt that at some point he must've done something or else people like Dins wouldn't tell people like me to take the guy more seriously as a guitarist.

The stuff you're probably looking for is predominantly in the late 60's early 70's. The problem is, with the Dead, as with many bands' LIVE recordings that haven't been editted and produced and officially released ... it's messy. You need to do a little digging. But remember, gold and diamonds, are found in the dirt.

I don't give a fuck about the slickness or the sound quality of the clip. The playing will come through, regardless. Most clips of things from thirty years ago have poor sound quality. "Friday Night In San Francisco" was over thirty years ago, and it's stilll plainly evident in those clips that those were some monster players.

You see you're probably right, I call it "noodling" you call it "meandering" and I preferred nothing more than listen to the Dead "noodle" around together and when they found something and it clicked .... it clicked big time.

That's what jam bands do. Jam bands...jam. Jamming - improving - produces some of the best soloing ever. You may have heard of a band called Cream? Eric Clapton, Ginger Baker, Jack Bruce?

To this day, Clapton's best soloing occured in the loose framework of Cream's long improv jams.

It just seems to me that because the Dead were primarily a jam band, and they were around for forty years, there ought to be endless clips of them just killing it, including killer solos from Garcia.

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:59 am**

No. I just posted some things I could find

"Something jazzy, or even something bluegrass...whatever"

Like I said I didn't filter it to see if it was his BEST at playing

"Something jazzy, or even something bluegrass...whatever"

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:03 am**

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:19 am**

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:33 pm**

HBJ wrote:smarmy fagula

BWAA!

Dr_Phibes wrote:
Judy Garland wrote: There has to be more to Garcia than what you're showing me here. There just has to be.

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:52 pm**

Smackie Chan wrote:
HBJ wrote:smarmy fagula
BWAA!

2th that BWAA.

Tom, who is a smack slappy if ever there was one, turns on one and sends it into the upper deck.

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:55 pm**

Well, finding the great Jerry solos can be a bit tricky, as opposed to finding whole sets where his presence and bearing inform the music to a degree that the other members could never provide--or understand. Obviously all of the music--that weird pseudo Appalachian world of Bertha and Cumberland Mine--is based on LSD consciousness, and if you're not hip to that then there's no point whatever in pursuing the Dead's technical chops, etc. And of course Jerry was basically spiritually inert from the early 80's--with a brief resurgence around 87'-88

Some basically excellent Jerry solos, however, include the entire "Eleven" section from the "skullfuck" live album, the Lovelight solo from the same, the Bertha solo, the steel guitar on CSN&Y's Teach Your Children, various versions of Scarlett Begonias...and that's pretty much it. The vast vaultage of concerts and private records reveal all sorts of cool sections and transitions, but mostly he's playing his role as facilitator, as it were.

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:14 pm**

Try this album if your looking for virtuoso playing by Jerry.

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:20 pm**

mvscal wrote:
Van wrote:I'm looking for examples of virtuoso soloing, where he's supposed to be this amazing lead guitarist in a "jam band" sense.
Who the fuck ever said Jerry Garcia was a virtuoso?

Dins did, though he didn't use that actual word.

He implied it though!

Posted: **Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:02 pm**

I think the problem here is how do you define virtuoso.

Are we talking about technical wankery?

If so, yngwie is your man.

If we are talking about making a guitar do what it is designed to do, produce pleasing sounds, ole jerry g is a master, right up there with anyone.

I'm not even a big dead fan, but, have made a point of listening to the dead channel on XM the last few days in the car. I have to admit, that shit grows on you, in a nice way and I think a big part is jerry's musicality. Not being a guitar geek like Van, I can't tell you why I like listening to that fat old junkie. I just do.

And in the end, that's what it's all about.

Another thing about jerry's playing which may or may not earn him virtuoso points is that 2 notes in, you just fukking know it's him. Most of the greats have this characteristic.

bode jerry.

Posted: **Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:28 pm**

smackie, merely being unique doesn't make one a virtuoso, or else everyone would be a virtuoso.

I can tell it's Neil Young and C.C. DeVille right away too, so clearly just having an identifiable sound isn't enough.

Posted: **Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:50 pm**

fair enough. can you really identify neil that quick, without him opening his ~~nose~~ mouth?

so, if it's gotta be just one fukkin' dude for you to listen to for the rest of eternity, who's it gonna be?

that's a tough one.

i wanna go with SRV, but, I'm not sure. maybe page. hell, maybe paco de lucia.

paco wins, if jaw dropping technical brilliance combined with artistry is the standard.

sorry dins, it ain't jerry.

Posted: **Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:23 am**

For me? That one's easy.

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T1B

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