T1B

mvscal is a coming...

Atomic Punk wrote:mvscal is a coming...

Is that a CCR song?

Proud like Mary.

B.H. Liddell Hart's "The German Generals Talk" is a solid accounting of strategy from the OKH (Oberkommando des Heeres - army high command).

War literature from the perspective of the vanquished/enemy has always fascinated me. I think it's the only way to have a complete understanding of any conflict.

Okay then, Marty, give us a detailed accounting of Operation Roast Beef Overlord.

Specifics, man. Topographical maps. Weather forecasts. The heated war room debates. The entire sturm und drang of the whole campaign.

When did you truly know it had gone pearshaped?

Mr T wrote:

Atomic Punk wrote:mvscal is a coming...

Is that a CCR song?

No, Three Dog Night.

Van wrote:Okay then, Marty, give us a detailed accounting of Operation Roast Beef Overlord.

Specifics, man. Topographical maps. Weather forecasts. The heated war room debates. The entire sturm und drang of the whole campaign.

When did you truly know it had gone pearshaped?

Fuck you, man...you weren't there...you... weren't........there............

I often wake up in the middle of the night in a pool of sweat...I have to pound back a fistful of Ambien with a bottle of Canadian Club to drown out the screaming in my head....


PTSD

mvscal would be a blast telling campfire stories.

mvscal wrote:

Martyred wrote:War literature from the perspective of the vanquished/enemy has always fascinated me. I think it's the only way to have a complete understanding of any conflict.

Try this. One of the best personal memoirs I've read.

Read it maybe 15 years ago. Fantastic.

Martyred wrote:B.H. Liddell Hart's "The German Generals Talk" is a solid accounting of strategy from the OKH (Oberkommando des Heeres - army high command).

Yes, that would be the book were the German Generals talk about how Liddell Hart taught them everything they knew.
Apparently he made Guderian write a testimonial in exchange for letting him crash on his couch in 47.

Forgotten Soldier is brilliant, read it twice.

Beevor's book was great, Alan Clarke's was shitty.

"Stalingrad, memories and re-assessments' by Joachim Weider is better. He was an officer in 6th army operations branch - it's equal part memior, battle review. He was shattered, had a meltdown and found god just before surrendering. Looking for someone to blame, he targets Von Manstein and Hitler, it's a stirring, convincing defense for Von Seydlitz and oddly enough, Paulus.

I thought this was just going to be a pro-books thread.

I like books too.

Martyred wrote:

Van wrote:Okay then, Marty, give us a detailed accounting of Operation Roast Beef Overlord.

Specifics, man. Topographical maps. Weather forecasts. The heated war room debates. The entire sturm und drang of the whole campaign.

When did you truly know it had gone pearshaped?

Fuck you, man...you weren't there...you... weren't........there............

I often wake up in the middle of the night in a pool of sweat...I have to pound back a fistful of Ambien with a bottle of Canadian Club to drown out the screaming in my head....


PTSD

Rack and Rack

Read this when I was a kid. Written by a guy who wasn't there but talked to some who were. Personalizes one man's involvement in the Civil War. Made into a movie with Audie Murphy--a true was hero and used Crane's Civil war era dialogue almost work for word. The Civil War was anything but "civil" when you read detailed accounts of the battles. I remember standing at the "high water mark" if the rebel army at Gettysburg and thinking how horrible it must have been for those men to have walked all the way across that field under withering musket and cannon fire to engage the Union troops in hand to hand combat and then forced to retreat. Amazing !!
Yes--war is hell.

mvscal wrote: By the time he was put in command, the Soviet counter-offensive was in full swing and the 6th Army was trapped.

Well he doesn't blame von Manstein for anything that happened before he took command

I mean it's a lengthy book, but some key points -

From the second Manstein took over and was briefed, he fractured a unified front in favour of a breakout (Paulus, von Weichs, von Richthofen, Zeitzler).
'Right you old codgers, I'm in charge now - everyone listen to Hitler and dig in'.. after he was briefed on the entire situation? Keep in mind, he still had no contact with supreme headquarters at that point.

He blames Paulus for not taking independent action within the first 24 hours of encirclement and that's ridiculous, a breakout would have required a joint effort from army group, fuel re-supply from the air force and several days of re-organisation within the pocket - that's beyond the scope of Paulus's command.

Thunderclap was a myth, 6th army couldn't get any information out of army group, there was never any communication. They had no clue what was going on outside the pocket and army group refused to send anyone into the pocket to talk to them, which is odd considering the gravity about what they were supposed to do.

Leadership from army group was a myth, Manstein accuses Paulus repeatedly of not presenting supreme headquarters with a fait accompli, when Manstein was in a position to do this himself the whole time. 6th army never recieved a single order from anyone.

There was no surrender even after the bulk of Soviet forces dis-engaged, rendering 6th army's fighting pointless - again, no independent action from Manstein when well over 140,000 men were stilll alive

In Lost Victories, Manstein goes into the whole '6th army's noble death'.. Weider takes great exception to that, what was going in the pocket was perverse and couldn't be described by anyone as honourable.

Whatever you think of the book, it's worth it for the appendices - there's a massive volume of communiques and situation reports that are great stuff, really hard hitting.

mvscal wrote: Manstein was eventually able to cobble together 3 understrength armored divisions to attempt a breakout which was absurdly inadequate.

I thought Yngwie cobbled together musicians that Van met in person. Anyway, I would pay big $$$ for mvscal's "History of the World Part III."

Atomic Punk wrote:
I thought Yngwie cobbled together musicians that Van met in person.

Why don't you cobble together your dignity and invest in some men's clothing, you fucking she-male faggot.

Jesus...just shut the fuck already. You wanna make people laugh? Just be yourself, zz flop.

Martyred wrote:

Atomic Punk wrote:
I thought Yngwie cobbled together musicians that Van met in person.

Why don't you cobble together your dignity and invest in some denim...I'm talking yards and yards of soft, comfortable, glorious, pre-shrunk denim men's clothing, you fucking she-male faggot.

Van wrote:

STOP trying to get on my good side!

:x

:)

Perk, for years you've claimed this isn't your troll. You are a bitter little angry midget that has serious mental issues. Years ago I've stopped bagging on you for your Blondie "babe" experience. It's not funny, nor does it interest me in regards to your stature... ummm, I mean status. Yeah...

I would suggest you go to a Canadian pharmacy and get a pre-loaded syringe loaded with at least the minimum... 3 ml of haloperidol decanoate (Haldol) to help you adjust to a lifelong sentence to sit on phone books to see a keyboard in order for you to respond.

Two more killer reads, 88...

and

Rack Roach for suggesting "King Rat". EVERY book Clavell wrote was gold.

Truman wrote:Two more killer reads, 88...

and

Rack Roach for suggesting "King Rat". EVERY book Clavell wrote was gold.

Have you read:

or



Might be interesting to compare stories with what either Ambrose or the HBO series came up with (and I do know that the series got some stuff wrong).

mvscal wrote: There was never any "army group" either. The remnants of Army Group B were desperately fighting their way out of the Crimea which drew more troops away from the Stalingrad battle.

Manstein was eventually able to cobble together 3 understrength armored divisions to attempt a breakout which was absurdly inadequate. The German problem was a case of too much bread and not enough butter to cover it.

Not entirely true, Army Group A had enough power and they couldn't hold their position in the long run until the Don front was stabilised anyway, that's what von Weichs was pushing for in late November and Manstein dismissed it.

And he didn't cobble those divisions together, he was allotted them and accepted it - everyone involved knew it was a joke and he didn't start screaming for a panzer corps from Army Group A until after it failed. It's funny, von Richthofen said he was, operationally, a highly paid sergeant.
It's more a question of him failing in his ethical responsibility to the men he was entrusted with, he explains everything away nicely though.

The memoirs of staff officers need to be read with a great deal of skepticism. They are very frequently self-serving and often fail to consider the larger picture to which they were not privy at the time.

That's what Weider said about Lost Victories, but it's not original to him, Walter Gorlitz took a similar approach in 'I Stand Here Under Orders' and Manstein issued a rebuttal that I've never read, I doubt it's been translated.

Wolfman wrote:

Read this when I was a kid.

I call bullshit.

It hadn't happened yet.

von Richthofen was the idiot who briefed Manstein on 6th army's tonnage requirements for fuel, ammunition and foodstuffs and the actual capabilities of the Luftwaffe to carry this out - basically spelling out the fact that everyone in 6th army was going to die really really horribly.. and ignored it

When Manstein was left to his own devices, he was brillliant - when he felt interfered with, he became a petulant brat and the consequences went beyond the scope.

pick up a proper book sometime, cupcake - preferably not Victor Davis Hanson

Diego in Seattle wrote:

Truman wrote:Two more killer reads, 88...

and

Rack Roach for suggesting "King Rat". EVERY book Clavell wrote was gold.

Have you read:

or



Might be interesting to compare stories with what either Ambrose or the HBO series came up with (and I do know that the series got some stuff wrong).

Have you read:



I heard it's one of the best "brothers" books out there.

Yup, that one's good too.

mvscal wrote:...mechanized divisions?

You're being generous. Hoth probably had horses outnumbering tanks under his command 10-1.

Atomic Punk wrote:Perk, for years you've claimed this isn't your troll. You are a bitter little angry midget that has serious mental issues. Years ago I've stopped bagging on you for your Blondie "babe" experience. It's not funny, nor does it interest me in regards to your stature... ummm, I mean status. Yeah...

Martyred isn't Perk- you must be the only one left who doesn't know

War "Where do you keep the fuck books?"

GG

mvscal wrote: Actually the decision was made over his head. Goering assured Hitler that the 6th army could be supplied by air and that was that.

Well yes and no, that decision was by no means cemented.
Manstein attended his initial briefing at Weich's headquarters and Richthofen was there - they presented the reality of the situation in terms of supply (not Goering's claims) and the only options in terms of reserves came from a complete withdrawal Army Group A from the Caucuses. Manstein and his entourage turned up - ignored and insulted everyone on Weich's staff to the point that no-one would talk to each other.
He then proceeded to give the order for 6th army to dig in.

All he had to do, was report to supreme headquarters that the situation could not be recovered and that was that. He was Hitler's superstar and firmed up Hitler's decision by stabbing everyone else in the back, including OKH.

Define "interfered with", please. That covers an awful lot of ground. It seems to me that having Hitler and OKH refuse permission for 6th Army to break out immediately when they still had the power to do so could be reasonably termed "interference" with consequences beyond the scope of the army commander's influence, no?

How about the task to break the siege with four pitifully understrength mechanized divisions? Is that how von Manstein drew it up? Was he thinking, "WOW! I'm really going to kick some ass here with my bad ass army group...errr panzer corps minus"?

When things started going south and he didn't get the reserves from Army Group A he wanted he never complained, he'd just dutifully go about his business and piss and moan that the strategy Weichs originally recommended wasn't being observed and it goes on through the entire operation.

If you ever re-read the Stalingrad chapter in Lost Victories, you'll notice it, he sort of vacillates back and forth between explanation and justification for everything that he was doing in regards to orders that came down the pipe. You'll pick up on it quickly if you're looking for it.
And he's got the gall to shit all over Paulus for not taking independent action?