T1B

I guess the talk will start heating up here down the stretch.

Here is what the nation's got: (Compiled a list from Fox, Si, ESPN, and CBS)

1. Mark Ingram
2. Case Keenum
3. Colt McCoy
4. C.J. Spiller
5. Toby Gerhart


Here is my list:

1. Mark Ingram
2. Case Keenum
3. Kellen Moore
4. Jordan Shipley
5. Dion Lewis

I'm sorry, but wins and #'s matter and all of these players have both. I can't put Gerhart and Spiller in the talks because both teams have 3 losses. I know Lewis is a frosh, but that kid has been as steady as they come in Pitt's wins.

Thoughts?

Wins total have only MATTERED for about what 20ish years?

if this were 1950 Gerhart would prolly win it..

now?

I'd prolly vote for Ingram with Keenum a close 2nd.

1 Ingram
2-5 doesn't really matter

The guy is carrying the offensive load for an undefeated BCS conference team with an inexperienced qb.

And though I'm still slightly bitter he wound up in Slick Nick's weasely little hands, he definitely deserves it...at least to this point.

I agree. Without Ingram, Bama is probably a two loss team right now. Same can be said for Keenum and Moore, but Ingram faces tougher competition.

I've got to be honest, I haven't seen Keenum play a single down this year outside of ESPN highlights. So I have no clue how or where to rate the guy. Is he doing what he's doing with a balanced offensive attack, or is it one of those arcade taco tech type offenses?

It's of the arcade variety, but he has led Houston to three victories on the final drive on his own.

According to Van, anyone who plays in a popgun offense doesn't deserve any consideration because it's all dink and dunk and the competition is shit.

Houston beat Miss State, Ok State, and Taco Tech with that silly-string offense, so I don't what else Case has to prove.

The only comparison you can make to Case Keenum is Colt Brennan. However, Colt Brennan played one BCS school. It was a 4-9 Washington team.

Sudden Sam wrote:Never have understood how wins and losses come into play in the Heisman voting.

WTF does that have to do with who the best player in college football is?

I think the Heisman is perceived more as MVP rather than the best player in college football. I know football is a team game and all, but it's difficult handing out the Heisman to someone who plays on a 5-7 football team.

If McCoy and Tebow get invited to New York, then we all know the Heisman will have become a farce. I, personally, would put Spiller and Gerhart in the mix, but that isn't the way the system works. In my mind, the perfect system is numbers and wins. That may not make you the best college football player based on pure numbers, but it makes you great and valuable to your team.

If Keenum gets some Heisman love it shouldn't be because he put up some numbers on Mississippi State and Texas Tech. Your average, ordinary SEC or Big 12 qb can put up numbers against those teams and except nobody would ever notice or care. The fact that Keenum did it in a Houston jersey may earn him some headlines, but that doesn't make him one of the top 5 players in the country. Putting up yards on the taco tech defense? All that means is that your qb has got a pulse.

The OK St win, I'll give you that, but that's just not enough.

Tim Tebow vs Miss St - 12/22 - 127 yds - 0 TDs - 2 Ints / 22 rush - 88 yds - 1 TD

Case Keenum vs Miss St - 39/52 - 434 yds - 4 tds - 2 ints / 3 rush - 13 yds - 0 TD

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:1 Ingram
2-5 doesn't really matter

Precisely.

That's the second time today I've completely agreed with Mgo. One of us should be upset.

'Co'og's, get it right. I said "popgun offense, in a popgun conference." You have to include the bit about the popgun conference too, although, maybe, not really. Graham Harrell was never going to win the Heisman either, because he played in a popgun offense, in a league which barely played any D.

Also, you still need to stop saying nonsense like, "He put up numbers against Mississippi St and Taco Tech. What else does he have to prove?"

Ummm, everything? Putting up numbers against Taco Tech is not only not difficult, it's expected, and MSU is just plain horrible. The rest of his games are against teams which would barely provide for a decent scrimmage for the real teams in BTPCF.

Case Keenum vs Miss St - 39/52

And there's your problem. That's his statline, every week. That's a popgun offense, with no attempt at a running game, and they barely beat lowly MSU anyway.

Heisman trophy winners in the modern era have to win big games. It's that simple. They have to show up big, in big games. Houston won't play in a big game this season, so Keenum can't even be seriously considered. That's just how the Heisman is.

Go Coogs' wrote:Tim Tebow vs Miss St - 12/22 - 127 yds - 0 TDs - 2 Ints / 22 rush - 88 yds - 1 TD

Case Keenum vs Miss St - 39/52 - 434 yds - 4 tds - 2 ints / 3 rush - 13 yds - 0 TD

I'll give you the completion %, but come on, he had 30 more attempts!

Ok State is 35th ranked defense in the country. Keenum thrashed them for 366 yards and 4 TDs (1 rush).

It's a pass heavy offense, but you don't become the #1 ranked offense in the country because your QB is average.

mccoy will win it. because the old fruit Brent Musberger will crow that Colt's ass isn't as cute as Chris Simms or "the Major's". even though he threw for whopping 120 yards against Oklahoma. and the SEC team that beats UT 14-11 will shut down loverboy Shipley the same way OU did. with a good player at DB and hit like a crack bitch at that dink-dunk underneath BS Greg Davis has made his pussy sauce. UT won't be able to beat SEC fave up front, that will be the end of them.

this year's Texas team would finish 3rd in last year's Big XII South.

Moby Dick wrote:Wins total have only MATTERED for about what 20ish years?

if this were 1950 Gerhart would prolly win it..

now?

I'd prolly vote for Ingram with Keenum a close 2nd.

Gotta RACK this.


Toby Gerhart is fucking psycho. Been doing it for 3.5 years.

His team isn't quite tehsuck, but is at the opposite side of the spectrum from "glamorous."

But it's possible that he "does more" than any player in D1.

And his performance against My Beloved Oregon didn't even piss me off -- it just impressed me.



Could be a good Next Level FB -- maybe a Merrel Hodge type plyer.

Dinsdale wrote:

Moby Dick wrote:Wins total have only MATTERED for about what 20ish years?

if this were 1950 Gerhart would prolly win it..

now?

I'd prolly vote for Ingram with Keenum a close 2nd.

Gotta RACK this.


Toby Gerhart is fucking psycho. Been doing it for 3.5 years.

His team isn't quite tehsuck, but is at the opposite side of the spectrum from "glamorous."

But it's possible that he "does more" than any player in D1.

And his performance against My Beloved Oregon didn't even piss me off -- it just impressed me.



Could be a good Next Level FB -- maybe a Merrel Hodge type plyer.

If he repeats that performance against USC, Cal and Notre Dame he could stand a chance.
Nice four game run to close out the season would put him close to 2K, and I assume that the ND game will be on national TV.

Not likely, but who knows?

Van wrote:

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:1 Ingram
2-5 doesn't really matter

Precisely.

That's the second time today I've completely agreed with Mgo. One of us should be upset.

You should both be appalled. I know I am.

I totally agree.

Go Coogs,

So should Case get Heisman run because his team's defense is so bad? Sure McCoy doesn't have near the numbers passing that Case does, but he hasn't had too. Oddly UH and UT have three common opponents. Texas and Colt have blown out two of those opponents and as such Colt doesn't get the opportunity to put up the numbers Case does. Further the Texas special teams and Defense put up so many points themselves it takes opportunities away from Colt. Colt has had to play to the last down in every game just to be able to pull out wins over crap teams. Does UH beat the Sooners this season?

I guess it boils down to this for me. Would Colt put up the same numbers as Case if he were the starting QB at UH? I think he would. Would Case be ready to set the all-time completion percentage and wins records if he were the starting QB at UT? I don't know, but lean towards prolly not.

Don't get me wrong Case is a great person and a good college QB for an above avg team, but in my opinion a Heisman QB doesn't lose to UTEP.

King Crimson wrote: this year's Texas team would finish 3rd in last year's Big XII South.

So Texas '09 behind Texas '08 and Tech '08? :D

I see you working, but while Texas may not seem as good as last year, their defense is way better and the offense is still the same.

Left Seater wrote:Go Coogs,

So should Case get Heisman run because his team's defense is so bad?

Well, that can be seen two different ways. Here is how I see it. UH's defense is ranked 116th out of 120 FBS schools which pads Keenum's numbers because they are having to score almost every time the offense is on the field. However, the next worse defense who is ranked in the AP poll is Stanford (25). Their defense is 82nd out of 120 which is 34 spots better than UH's but they have two more losses than the Coogs. The closest one loss team in defensive rank to Houston is Georgia Tech (7) who is rated 57th out of 120. Houston is #1 in total offense and points scored. So, here is a team who is nearly ranked last in total defense and ranked first in total offense and points scored. What does that usually translate to in wins and losses? I'm thinking a .500 season.

This tells me the offense, Keenum especially, has carried this team to a level of overachievement that has never been seen before. 116th ranked defenses don't finish in the top 25. Texas Tech's 1 loss team was 80th in defensive rank. Not good, but a far cry better than 116. Not only that, but Texas Tech had the best receiver in football on their offense which made things a little easier for Harrell to run that offense because of the attention Crabtree drew from opposing defenses. Then you have Colt Brennan and the Hawaii team from 2007. First thing, Hawaii's only significant win was against Boise St. at home. They played scrubs in their OOC schedule. Secondly, their defense was ranked 34th overall. That is a whole helluva lot better than what Keenum has had to put up with.

You mention McCoy as a comparison, but I have to take issue with one thing. Colt has played in two relatively close games this season. The first came against Texas Tech. He had an opportunity to put Texas up two scores early in the 4th quarter and threw a crucial pick deep in Tech territory. Texas' defense forced a fumble and Texas got the ball right back and scored with a short field. Colt had the same opportunity in the OU game midway through the 4th quarter when Texas' defense intercepted Jones' pass deep in OU territory. Colt threw a horrible pick on a 3rd and 2 and made a game saving tackle on the OU defender or he would've probably taken it to the house. Both of Colt's close games he had marginal stats and threw some bad picks only to be rescued by the defense.

Keenum's played in a number of close games and has pretty much come through on every single one. He couldn't rely on his defense to bail him out. The defense played out of their minds against Tech, but it was Keenum who marched down the field on a 16 play 95 yard TD drive to win it. That was outstanding. And that is what the Heisman is about; the Most Outstanding Player.

As for the UTEP game, you can't blame Keenum for UH's much maligned defense giving up nearly 700 yards. Keenum was a victim of a missed field goal, a snap over his head, and his receiver putting the ball on the ground. Keenum still threw for 536 yards and 5 TDs, so how does that hurt his chances as a candidate?

I agree, UH's defense has forced Keenum and the offense to keep scoring points; however, they still have to do it. It's not a given that they will score, but they do almost every time. C-USA isn't the Big 12 or SEC, so I understand the skewed numbers, but the Coogs are 8-1 with the 116th ranked defense in the country. Find me another team who had a defense ranked that bad and had a winning season along with a top 15 ranking. You won't.

Keenum has been playing against bad D's all year long, and he hasn't played in a single game of any significance, nor will he.

His numbers are just a product of circumstances: a bad D for his own team, bad Ds for the other team, no running game on his own team, and a system - both offensively and defensively - which dictates a thousand yards of total offense per game.

It's fake. It's no way to measure a QB. If you wanna give Heisman consideration to someone on Houston, share it between their OC and DC, since they're the ones responsible for Keenum's silly numbers. Stick Keenum on S. Carolina or UCLA and he's nobody's most outstanding anything. He's a decent, anonymous QB producing meh numbers, playing in a set of circumstances which aren't conducive to producing video game offensive totals.

He's just a system QB playing in a popgun conference, 'Co'og's. How are you not getting this yet?

Best player in CFB for 2009 is this guy:



He'll be drafted ahead of everyone else mentioned in this thread and rightfully so. Plays above the rim every game.
Most athletic guy I've ever seen play tackle..evar... & I'm old.

No, he won't win the Heisman.

Van wrote:His numbers are just a product of circumstances: a bad D for his own team, bad Ds for the other team, no running game on his own team

Alright, Vansdale, I get that you're trolling now.

I will succumb to your idiotic remarks on this subject from this point forward.

Houston averages 148 yards a game on the ground, fucknut.

Suuuuuh!

Best college football player. He even has a pick and has played on offense before including 1 touchdown reception. Guy is a beast.


edit: I agree that they won't give the best player the Heisman. It's nothing but a pageant anymore. Fucking shameful the way the Heisman has been bastardized by fucks like ESP-Tebow and a host of sorry-assed sports commentators on various networks.

Go Coogs,

That horrible defense cost Case his shot at an invite to NYC. Here's hoping he is back next season and RICE can pull the upset. Great kid though.

Mikey wrote: If he repeats that performance against USC, Cal and Notre Dame he could stand a chance.
Nice four game run to close out the season would put him close to 2K, and I assume that the ND game will be on national TV.

Not likely, but who knows?

Well, Gerhart didn't quite match his Oregon totals against SC, Cal and ND, but 742 rushing yards and 13 TDs (plus one as a passer) in the final four games is not bad. Putting up 205 and 3 against ND on national TV made a pretty good statement, as exemplified by the one run on the final drive where he steamrolled one DB shed another like a rag doll and then carried about 3 other players for an additional 5 yards. This, after Stanford had to call an extra time out just to let him catch his breath.

If Stanford had beaten Cal, Gerhart might have had a good chance at the Heisman. As it it, it will prolly go to McCoy.

Can Gerhart make it in the NFL? With no flash, posing or end zone dances I'm not sure he has the stuff to make the transition.
He's a smart kid though, maybe he can learn.

For those of you who didn't see it...

He had at least a half dozen of those yesterday. He does that every game. He's just fucking awesome, and yeah, he also knows how to behave. No stupid celebrations, no posing, no "Look at meeee!" histrionics.

No self-promotion, Tebow style, either.

Problem is, he's going to wear down quickly playing that way in the NFL, assuming he isn't always getting injured right out of the gate.

Mikey wrote:Can Gerhart make it in the NFL? With no flash, posing or end zone dances I'm not sure he has the stuff to make the transition.
He's a smart kid though, maybe he can learn.

At worst, he can be very good in goal line and short yardage situations. He's not going to be a #1 back but he'd a great change-of-pace back to pair with a quicker back. It's one thing to run over smallish college safeties and linebackers but he's not going to survive if he tries to run over All-Pros. 5-10 carries a game and put him as the #2 back behind a guy like Chris Johnson or MJD...he can serviceable for a long time. If he wants to make himself more attractive in the draft, he needs to show he can catch the ball out of the backfield...he averaged around one catch per game throughout his career. Mike Alstott was more of a true fullback but he made a nice career out of being effective in short yardage but he could also catch the ball.

Go Coogs' wrote:. I, personally, would put Spiller and Gerhart in the mix...

But you would Keenum? You've officially lost all credibility in my eyes... Spray I totally take back anything I posted in defense of this clown in the past; feel free to light him up with my blessings now.

Sudden Sam wrote:Tebow shouldn't even be mentioned for it this year. Not even in the top 20 possible candidates.

McCoy? He may get it because the last two years he was so damn good and just missed out.

Ingram is a man.

Gerhart is a man.

One of the two of them should win it. No one else is close.

You're nuts CJ Spiller... PEOS.

UT beats Nebraska and it's McCoy.