T1B

Do you believe in the power of prayer, or do you no longer need to place your faith in that which you have seen proof of more often then not?

Christ knew of heavenly things including the power of prayer.
Christ taught mankind to pray - The Lords Prayer...
...which by me, pretty much tells the whole story of His intent for blessing mankind with His presence.

"Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven"

If we are ever to live in peace and harmony with each other, it can never be through the way that we now exist.
Christ knew the wonders of the Heavenly way of being, the wonderful benefits of abiding by G-ds will.
He also knew that if/when G-d choose to put an end to our earthly stupidity - man's collective retardation would then realize an end to it's self destructive ways.
When Christ laid down The Lords Prayer, it wasn't for His benefit, or for His Heavenly Fathers glorification, but for our rescue.

Amen.

I do.

If nothing else it helps quiet the mind and trying to center oneself. I think non believers - and some believers - confuse prayer with asking God to do magic and be like some sort of Uber Waiter. I know I did for awhile.

Define prayer.

Which type ? There's several types.

Yes. A form of "prayer". For me, listening to Gregorian Chants, Vedic Chants, Buddhist Chants, Native American Chanting is a way of focusing oneself - emptying oneself - such that "oneness" with "that which is" can be attained. If only for a short while. Oh, and trying to actually do the chants is quite an experience too. The breathing. The Vedic and Buddhist stuff is really far out.

Likewise prayers of petition, contrition, gratitude, etc.. help focus the mind - when they're in the right form.

With the mind focused - the ass is sure to follow. :D

Tom is right that there are many "forms" of prayer.

Essentially, prayer is enjoying God, and it's not a difficult thing at all.

We can (and should) pray for specific things.
We should also pray continuously - 1 Thessalonians 5:17, Psalms 1:2.
Just quietly meditating on Christ, the Word, our status.
In such condition, believers are filled by the Holy Spirit and the spiritual forces of darkness are broken down.

JB noted Christ saying this when He instruced believers on prayer - "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven"

All things originate from the throne of Heaven.
It's the greatest blessing for a person to pray and have the will of God (from Heaven) be fulfilled on earth.

And ultimately, God's interest is the saving of souls.

poptart wrote:JB noted Christ saying this when He instruced believers on prayer - "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven"

You do realize that the Lord's prayer or the Pator noster is an adaptation of an Egyptian prayer to Amen-Re, right?

No, I don't realize that.

poptart wrote:No, I don't realize that.

Well it actually is... that's not to say it is improper for your faith to use it as such. Being influenced by surrounding cultures isn't a bad thing per say. After all you do use it to honor your own personal deity. But the prayer itself dates all the way back to the Middle Kingdom of Egypt and was originally used to worship Amen-Re.

It was actually used in a number of forms pre-Christianity, including Judaism in the Kaddish and the Canaanites worship of Ishtar.

Sudden Sam wrote:

SunCoastSooner wrote:
Well it actually is... that's not to say it is improper for your faith to use it as such. Being influenced by surrounding cultures isn't a bad thing per say. After all you do use it to honor your own personal deity. But the prayer itself dates all the way back to the Middle Kingdom of Egypt and was originally used to worship Amen-Re.

It was actually used in a number of forms pre-Christianity, including Judaism in the Kaddish and the Canaanites worship of Ishtar.

You got any links to info about this? I'm not finding anything.

I tried to find some links to it as well after I initially replied to poptart... It's in a couple of books I have by Knight & Lomas, John J. Robinson, and a few other authors but those are the ones I can recall off hand.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least.

If you read the prayer, the petitions are pretty universal and sound.

Because the Lord's Prayer that Jesus taught to disciples contains similarities ("common themes") to an Egyptian prayer to Amun doesn't make it an adaptation of that prayer.


John 1:1-3
1. In the beginning was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: The same was in the beginning with God.
3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

poptart wrote:Because the Lord's Prayer that Jesus taught to disciples contains similarities ("common themes") to an Egyptian prayer to Amun doesn't make it an adaptation of that prayer.


John 1:1-3
1. In the beginning was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: The same was in the beginning with God.
3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Dude, it's almost verbatim the same prayer... you'd argue with a fence post, sad really.

Jesus fully proved Himself to be the Christ.
I believe that.

Aside from that, you haven't exactly substantiated your claim in this thread, seeing as you've posted NOTHING to back up the point you wish to make.

poptart wrote:Jesus fully proved Himself to be the Christ.

I believe that.

Whatever floats your boat... I think the resident Jews on the board have already set you straight on that issue a number of times concerning Jesus fulfillment of prophecy or lack there of.

Aside from that, you haven't exactly substantiated your claim in this thread, seeing as you've posted NOTHING to back up the point you wish to make.

I cited three different authors who are experts in the field... your best you refute to such so far has been equal to a grade school child saying "un uhhhhhh no it didn't."

Not really. His refute is more along the lines of an atheist or an agnostic atheist ... "Got proof".

You cited authors. That's it.

"Knight & Lomas, John J. Robinson, and a few other authors but those are the ones I can recall off hand."

You didn't use APA Style or MLA Style at all, so you get no credit.

http://www.knight-lomas.com/index2.html



Was that the book ? Are these the authors ? They're Freemasons.

The other dude John Robinson is a racist who used to coach the Georgetown basketball team and had a radio show in the D.C. area.

John J. Robinson:
http://www.msana.com/jrobinson.asp

Was that book or was it his other book ?

Are these the right authors ?

Are YOU a Freemason ?

Prayers come in different packages:

Israeli Colonel Klein had taken a unit of 20 Israeli soldiers into the midst of one of Lebanon's border cities where the fighting was fierce. He led his men into a courtyard that was walled up around believing it provide a place of cover and rest from enemy fire.

Suddenly, someone tossed a hand grenade out of one of the windows above them, and as it hit the ground, Klein threw his body over the hand grenade and cried out shouting: "Schema Yisrael Adoni Elohinu, Adonai Ekhad." Hear O Israel, the L-rd our G-d, the L-rd is One!

As he shouted the last words he would ever speak in this holiest of prayers He honored his God. The grenade blew up killing him but sparing all of his soldiers from death. Some were slightly injured from shrapnel but none had life threatening wounds because of Colonel Klein's actions.

It seems afterward some of the soldiers saw an angel standing over the lifeless body of the Colonel. Some of the wounded were taken to a hospital and wanted to speak about this but they were told to say nothing. However, some of them could not keep silent. Who could keep silent after seeing an angel?

The word got out through some of their parents. The mainstream media here has maintained silence, and the army has ordered them not to speak about their experience, but our sources are bringing us this awesome news! We are seeking to contact and go meet some of these wounded men....Pray for the Lord to open a door to speak with those who have seen one of God's messengers and can now be a witness that He is real. He is alive; He is the living God!

Colonel Klein called upon the living God and gave Him glory seconds before He died saving his comrades. God showed up immediately and sent one of His messengers to reveal that He was there with them, and now Colonel Kline is with their God!

http://bibleprobe.com/miracles.htm

Now therefore, our God, we thank thee, and praise thy glorious name.

Johnny Bold wrote: It seems afterward some of the soldiers saw an angel standing over the lifeless body of the Colonel.

Wow.

From the blood of the Jews shall come your salvation.



You kooks won't stop until every last Heeb is flat-lined and on his way to Jesus...

Yeah, and I'm the anti-Semitic one...

Oh I don't know. The Inquisitors came up with some pretty original ways to inflict pain and kill.

Tom In VA wrote:Not really. His refute is more along the lines of an atheist or an agnostic atheist ... "Got proof".

You cited authors. That's it.

"Knight & Lomas, John J. Robinson, and a few other authors but those are the ones I can recall off hand."

You didn't use APA Style or MLA Style at all, so you get no credit.

http://www.knight-lomas.com/index2.html



Was that the book ? Are these the authors ? They're Freemasons.

The other dude John Robinson is a racist who used to coach the Georgetown basketball team and had a radio show in the D.C. area.

John J. Robinson:
http://www.msana.com/jrobinson.asp

Was that book or was it his other book ?

Are these the right authors ?

Are YOU a Freemason ?

Those are some of them.. and No John J. Robinson speaks about in Born in Blood... damn good book mostly concerning the Peasant's Revolt in 1381 in England.

Some other authors who discuss it are Mark Booth, Lynn Picket, Melvin Konner, and James Wasserman.

I'm not sure if that is the actual book it is discussed in Tom, they've written numerous works together. Why does it immediately invoke laughter to know they are Freemasons though? I admit I was skeptical at first as well until I started reading some of their books. I don't agree with much of their theories but their research is pretty damn thorough and are rather interesting at the least.

Whether or not I am a Freemason isn't relevant I don't think.

JB wrote:Klein threw his body over the hand grenade and cried out shouting: "Schema Yisrael Adoni Elohinu, Adonai Ekhad." Hear O Israel, the L-rd our G-d, the L-rd is One!

John 14:13
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name (Jesus Christ), that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

The Serenity Prayer

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

You know the answer.

There is no salvation apart from Christ - Acts 4:12.

The Bible tells us why God sent Christ and why it has to be Christ.

It's God's grace toward you, personally, that he's allowed you to hear the Gospel many times over.
That won't go on forever.

Romans 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

SunCoastSooner wrote:Why does it immediately invoke laughter to know they are Freemasons though?

Because it is funny. I mean sure, there are some well intentioned honorable men that are Freemason and I know plenty. Good dudes. I razz 'em all the time though and we have fun with it.

They're structured, ritualistic and speak of a "Great Architect". Not a religion ? C'mon it's a service organization that is bent on the spiritual, intellectual and moral development of men. Sounds somewhat like religion to me.

SunCoastSooner wrote: Whether or not I am a Freemason isn't relevant I don't think.

Well you're right in that it's none of my business, but I hope I didn't hurt you by simply asking. Whether or not you divulge the answer is your choice.

Either way, I was bored and did your homework for you.

Now Poptart and anyone else interested can check the books out, the ones that contain the claims you've made here.

Ever seen Zeitgeist ?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7743189197

Pretty interesting video weaving through the pagan religions of ancient tribes, Christianity, Islam, etc..

I haven't yet watched the "debunking" videos though, but I will.

Tom In VA wrote:

SunCoastSooner wrote:Why does it immediately invoke laughter to know they are Freemasons though?

Because it is funny. I mean sure, there are some well intentioned honorable men that are Freemason and I know plenty. Good dudes. I razz 'em all the time though and we have fun with it.

They're structured, ritualistic and speak of a "Great Architect". Not a religion ? C'mon it's a service organization that is bent on the spiritual, intellectual and moral development of men. Sounds somewhat like religion to me.

SunCoastSooner wrote: Whether or not I am a Freemason isn't relevant I don't think.

Well you're right in that it's none of my business, but I hope I didn't hurt you by simply asking. Whether or not you divulge the answer is your choice.

Either way, I was bored and did your homework for you.

Now Poptart and anyone else interested can check the books out, the ones that contain the claims you've made here.

Ever seen Zeitgeist ?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7743189197

Pretty interesting video weaving through the pagan religions of ancient tribes, Christianity, Islam, etc..

I haven't yet watched the "debunking" videos though, but I will.

You didn't offend me a bit... I'll have to try and watch the video sometime when I have more time. If I get this addenda done in a timely manner this evening I may check it out tonight.

I've always been a very big study of religion, theology, religious, and esoteric history. It's always fascinated me a great deal. I think I've mentioned it here a numerous times but I have a huge private library (3 huge bookshelves in my third bedroom, much of my garage, and 2 climate controlled storage facilities) and about 2/3 of it is either strictly history or religious/theological/esoteric history.

Fascinating thread, in an "esoteric" sorta' way.

Here's a good tune. Shut up and listen.



'tart, is JB your troll?

I'm down with prayer, btw. Try to remember to inwardly recite the lords and serenity prayer every day, but sometimes forget. Those days I don't forget seem to go smoother. Just a coincidence, I suppose.

Oh, and I pray that you arrogant fucksticks who don't believe in prayer or a higher power get smushed by a speeding freightliner today or next. That'll show you. Mighty Christian of me, huh?

SunCoastSooner wrote:strictly history or religious/theological/esoteric history.

We're the oddest beasts in the field aren't we ? Human history kind of goes hand in hand with some sort of relgious/theological/esoteric "thing".

I mean, I don't see too many Islamic Fundamentalist Gorillas trying to behead Christian Gorillas for handing out tracts.

If you do, let me know.

Tom In VA wrote:

SunCoastSooner wrote:strictly history or religious/theological/esoteric history.

We're the oddest beasts in the field aren't we ? Human history kind of goes hand in hand with some sort of relgious/theological/esoteric "thing".

I mean, I don't see too many Islamic Fundamentalist Gorillas trying to behead Christian Gorillas for handing out tracts.

If you do, let me know.

Yeah, that was one of the reasons I was originally asked to help mod this place... one Christian Mod (well two for a while) and one, shall we say, "nonconformist".

Wagon wrote:'tart, is JB your troll?

JB is tough love.

^
And before that? :wink:


The Serenity Prayer

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.

Amen.

Tom In VA wrote:

SunCoastSooner wrote:Why does it immediately invoke laughter to know they are Freemasons though?

Because it is funny. I mean sure, there are some well intentioned honorable men that are Freemason and I know plenty. Good dudes. I razz 'em all the time though and we have fun with it.

They're structured, ritualistic and speak of a "Great Architect". Not a religion ? C'mon it's a service organization that is bent on the spiritual, intellectual and moral development of men. Sounds somewhat like religion to me.

I should have addressed this... Freemasonry is not a religion by any means. Does it do the things you describe? Yeah it does. It just requires the belief in a monotheistic G-d but doesn't dictate doctrine to its members. The rituals are more like plays with moral teachings for the most part. There are plenty of groups who encourage moral standards of living that are not religions. It isn't based on spirituality and the requirement of believing in a G-d has more to do with tradition due to the oaths you must take than it does with actually being spiritual; keep in mind we are discussing a fraternity that was centuries old already when it became public. At that time in Europe an oath to ones sovereign deity held a lot more weight and spiritual consequence if broken than it does in today's society.

Furthermore Freemasons are a lot more than just well intentioned. They do a ton of good work all across the world. Most give their time willingly to numerous organizations that benefit hundreds of thousands of people (and that's being conservative with the numbers). They donate millions and millions of dollars to a multiplicity of charities and the vast majority of it is anonymously with no expectation of any sort of recognition.

Thanks. So are you "Scottish Rite" ?

Prince Hall masons seem like the best.

Tom In VA wrote:

Thanks. So are you "Scottish Rite" ?

Prince Hall masons seem like the best.

Prince Hall falls under the York Rite... it's not it's own group. They are also traditionally an African American group of Freemasonry though, of course, not limited to such. :wink:

The Scottish Rite are more fun... they drink more.

Don't tell me you're one of those people who thinks Freemasons are trying to take over the world or have had evil vexes or curses put on them by their brothers in the fraternity? Are you?

BTW I have been watching the video you found on google... the World Trade Center stuff is nutty.

Let me put it to you this way SCS.

Do I think there is some vast conspiracy afoot wherein the Freemasons seek to overtake the world ? I don't know, haven't decided, I think many people considered to be of great intellect, influence and power just HAPPEN to be freemasons. I don't believe there is some "Master Plan" but I'm not a Freemason, I'm not a 33(Scottish Rite) degree man or in the Knights Templar (York) - which by the way the Prince Hall dudes I know were Scottish Rite. I don't know that there is some concious diabolical plan by the Freemasons in effect. I don't get the memos.

That being said, I do believe in man's susceptibility to temptation and fallibility. I believe even the most well intentioned and benevolent efforts of man, can take twists and turns and wreak havoc upon humanity. The Church in which I was raised is evident of this (Roman Catholic) and the Roman Catholic church is not the only one.

In theory and evident throughout history one prinicple stands clear. People who achive positions of power and comfort - seek to keep those positions of power and comfort and the "things" that provides them. When those positions of power and comfort are threatened, they will defend them. Furthermore there is always the rampant disease within humanity of "more". The lust for "more" propels humanity into some pretty dark places - historically - and I don't believe we are so enlightened and evolved that it cannot happen again.

Will the Freemasons be behind all this ? I don't have evidence to suggest as such but again - I re-emphasize my point - while there might not be a "Mission Statement" saying as such - I think many people considered to be of great intellect, influence and power just HAPPEN to be freemasons. Assume infuence and power = MONEY, which also means comfort.

Lastly, I do know a good number of Freemasons conspired to rid this country of England, and they succeeded. So they've a proven record of success in being able to conspire towards a common objective.


Thoughts ?

Tom In VA wrote:Let me put it to you this way SCS.

Do I think there is some vast conspiracy afoot wherein the Freemasons seek to overtake the world ? I don't know, haven't decided, I think many people considered to be of great intellect, influence and power just HAPPEN to be freemasons. I don't believe there is some "Master Plan" but I'm not a Freemason, I'm not a 33(Scottish Rite) degree man or in the Knights Templar (York) - which by the way the Prince Hall dudes I know were Scottish Rite. I don't know that there is some concious diabolical plan by the Freemasons in effect. I don't get the memos.

That being said, I do believe in man's susceptibility to temptation and fallibility. I believe even the most well intentioned and benevolent efforts of man, can take twists and turns and wreak havoc upon humanity. The Church in which I was raised is evident of this (Roman Catholic) and the Roman Catholic church is not the only one.

In theory and evident throughout history one prinicple stands clear. People who achive positions of power and comfort - seek to keep those positions of power and comfort and the "things" that provides them. When those positions of power and comfort are threatened, they will defend them. Furthermore there is always the rampant disease within humanity of "more". The lust for "more" propels humanity into some pretty dark places - historically - and I don't believe we are so enlightened and evolved that it cannot happen again.

Will the Freemasons be behind all this ? I don't have evidence to suggest as such but again - I re-emphasize my point - while there might not be a "Mission Statement" saying as such - I think many people considered to be of great intellect, influence and power just HAPPEN to be freemasons. Assume infuence and power = MONEY, which also means comfort.

Lastly, I do know a good number of Freemasons conspired to rid this country of England, and they succeeded. So they've a proven record of success in being able to conspire towards a common objective.


Thoughts ?

Prince Hall was founded by an Irish Lodge that admitted a black man during the revolution which was under the UGLE and was/is York Rite... weird that they're Scottish Rite but I am ot as familiar with them to be honest.

There were a lot of Freemasons involved in the Revolution. Freemasons were a very big influence on all our founding documents and the drive towards war. The Boston Tea Party was even planned in a pub that was a Masonic Lodge after a meeting. That being said there were plenty of Freemasons that fought on the other side or were Tories such as Lord Cornwallis, his brother, Lord North, etc... Freemasonry wasn't limited to the American side by in any means. Same thing in France... Neither would even be your best example though... you might want to look into Scottish history and the history of the formation of Switzerland for any world domination theories concerning Freemasons or Templars knights. :wink:

There have been a number of very high ranking people in history who were members of the craft but that has a lot to do with the Church's disposition of persecuting enlightened people during those times in history and Freemasonry providing methods to identify those who were trustworthy to discuss matters of science and such. Some historians claims that the Masonry evolved from medieval stone mason's guild is absurd. First of all the British Isle's where the Masonry was most prevalent and began didn't have guilds of stone mason's as there were on the continent and has been proven time and time again. Stone Mason's guilds were something in Central and Eastern Europe.

The brotherhood is predisposed to help each other, there's no denying that and I won't pretend to do so. It was founded much for that reason. Look into the Masonic "Old Charges" which were obviously not written for a guild of any sort and even further debunk the theory.

Tom, you seem very interested in this subject... I would highly recommend you pick up a copy of Born in Blood by John J. Robinson; he isn't a mason so he isn't biased but he is a renowned historian. His book would be very enlightening for you and it would answer and explain many of the questions you put forth here far better than I ever could?

SunCoastSooner wrote: The brotherhood is predisposed to help each other, there's no denying that and I won't pretend to do so.

Do Masonic oaths supersede any oath to nation?

Martyred wrote:

SunCoastSooner wrote: The brotherhood is predisposed to help each other, there's no denying that and I won't pretend to do so.

Do Masonic oaths supersede any oath to nation?

This is a loaded question... there is no correct way to answer this question to be honest. The Masonic oaths do not supersede one's obligations or the best interest of their immediate family, ever, under any circumstance. Traditionally it is considered that an oath to a "True and Just" (my words not Freemasonry's) government supersedes any oath to Freemasonry. Having stated such it is expected that every Mason's actions should be from a moral standpoint; that is what Masons strive for in every day life or are supposed to do so. If a government is unjust and seeks to oppress the people then one (meaning a Freemason in this instance) might consider it their duty and morally correct to act on such a matter.