T1B

I cover the Pentagon for a living now and the Northrop decision to decline on bidding for the Air Force's new KC-X tanker is easily the biggest news in months. Of course, people are melting hard in Alabama and Kansas while the folks in Washington and Chicago (and Boeing) are extremely pleased, to say the least. I'm pretty new to the whole saga, but Northrop's been pissed since their award was overturned and they are calling they got screwed from the get-go. Saying the original RFP from the Pentagon was clearly skewed to a plane model that Boeing could supply, but not Northrop.

BTW, Northrop is the partner of EADS (Paris based) to try to get the money. I was skeptical from the beginning because the Pentagon doesn't want to give the money to overseas firms.

I don't have much of a take on this situation, but I am wondering if there is any of you military guys or Chair Force vets (Sup, Smackie, Whitey?) or anyone in general here who had a take.

Thanks, now get fucked with Katy's rusty dildo.

Northrop Grumman builds the ships (USS SAN ANTONIO (LPD 17) Class Amphibious Transport Docks) for the program on which I work. We've had major problems with workmanship (welding, piping, etc.) on them. Both Northrop and Grumman, before merging, were in the business of building aircraft. As far as I know, neither built ships before they merged.

That's about all I have. Not really a take, I know. I did laugh at EADS, though. Does that stand for Eat A Dick, Seriously?

This is just a continuing saga of Northrup versus Boeing versus Lockheed versus McDonald that has been going on for the last 50 years.

Was Northrup's platform the Airbus plane ? That would highly piss off the majority of the American taxpayers...and Northrup likely did get screwed at the start, but can you imagine Boeing not getting it and Airbus getting it ?? It would actually help the Revolution out a bit though if that happened.

My Dad worked for everyone of those companies between 1950 and 1977. It was feast or famine. He did wind tunnel testing and machine work. I have some pretty cool pictures, film and paperwork on the Flying Wing (sup B-2?), F 104, Snark, F-4 and some other projects.

Screw_Michigan wrote: the Pentagon doesn't want to give the money to overseas firms.

Since when?

What did Eisenhower say? Beware the vast military industrial complex...or some shit like that.

Weve got a company in town that is making a special jack for humvees. You know, for changing flat tires. They are charging the government(us taxpayers) $1500 a piece for these treasures. Fuck, I bought a 20 ton jack at harbor frieght a couple years ago for $25. Had a peice in the local newspaper with a picture of our local US Representavive standing next to the owner of the company...grinning...so happy he brought this $X million contract to our area.

Screw_Michigan wrote:I cover the Pentagon for a living now

The Pentagon? They must hire jizz-moppers at $500/hr. Rack you, Screwball.

Goober McTuber wrote:

Screw_Michigan wrote:I cover the Pentagon for a living now

The Pentagon? They must hire jizz-moppers at $500/hr. Rack you, Screwball.

Don't forget the $3,000 dollar jizz-mop with the 800 page spec manual or the bio-friendly jizz cleaning solution that runs about 90 bones a quart.

The NG plane would have been larger, but would have been more expensive to operate (uses more fuel, it's larger size would have required the construction of new facilities to house it ala A380).

To one of Tarddowen's comments, the contract will mean up to 2,000 directly related jobs in Everett, Wa....with another 4,000 jobs that aren't directly related. So one doesn't have to be a Boeing worker to benefit from this contract.

There's some speculation that NG might be given future consideration/awards on other defense work (which they do a lot of) as compensation for dropping out of this competition.

Hopefully Boeing management won't fuck this up like they have previously on this plane as well as the 7late7.

Goober McTuber wrote:The Pentagon? They must hire jizz-moppers at $500/hr. Rack you, Screwball.

That's right, you degenerate shitstain. Rack me.

Your governor is, unsurprisingly, a fucking idiot. The KC-X process began during the Bush White House. This didn't begin Jan. 20, 2009.

Riley was strutting for the voters ERRR the folks who were counting on those jobs in Alabama.

He's finishing out his second term, anyway.

Derron wrote:Was Northrup's platform the Airbus plane ?

Yes.

KC-X tanker

I know you're fueled but what am I?

Derron wrote:This is just a continuing saga of Northrup versus Boeing versus Lockheed versus McDonald that has been going on for the last 50 years.

Haven't been keeping up much, have you? McDonnell merged with Douglas in the 60s. McDonnell Douglas merged with Boeing in 1997.

Haven't checked any of the specs for the new shit, but I really hope it isn't yet another boondoggle, and the plane offers a major improvement over the venerable KC-135R, which they have about a zillion of already.

Mikey wrote:

Derron wrote:This is just a continuing saga of Northrup versus Boeing versus Lockheed versus McDonald that has been going on for the last 50 years.

Haven't been keeping up much, have you? McDonnell merged with Douglas in the 60s. McDonnell Douglas merged with Boeing in 1997.

Well aware of the mergers. Just laid it out has the players involved over the last 50 years..read much ?

Dinsdale wrote: but I really hope it isn't yet another boondoggle,

It is a major government purchasing / graft / corruption / bribery contract.

What the fuck did you think it was going to be ??

Open??..honest ?? and the political buzzword " transparent "

Dinsdale wrote:Haven't checked any of the specs for the new shit, but I really hope it isn't yet another boondoggle, and the plane offers a major improvement over the venerable KC-135R, which they have about a zillion of already.

Good point, which leads to another question. Does the KC-135 really need replacing? Are the airframe still servicable? We still use the B-52 which is older than the KC.

I'm kinda silly when it comes to the idea of throwing away something just because it's old. But, then again, i don't get kickbacks for pushing through new purchase orders. I just get a fukking bill. Well, technically, our grand kids get the bill.

If there really is a big gain in performance or if the old 707 air frames they are based on are toast, then do what you gotta do. Just don't do it for votes or to pay for some chairforce general's chalet in Aspen.

I suspect that most of those airframes still have some life in them because, unlike a passenger jet, the entire tube does not need to be pressurized. This pressurization cycle is what wears out passenger airframes.

So I take it you don't think the Pentagon needs the second Joint Strike Fighter engine?

Screw_Michigan wrote:So I take it you don't think the Pentagon needs the second Joint Strike Fighter engine?

haven't an opinion one way or the other. didn't know they were looking for one.

smackaholic wrote:

Screw_Michigan wrote:So I take it you don't think the Pentagon needs the second Joint Strike Fighter engine?

haven't an opinion one way or the other. didn't know they were looking for one.

They're not. DOD thinks they are just fine with the current engine, but Congress insists on developing the second engine because the current JSF engine supposedly has flaws that would ground more than half of our aircraft if something went wrong. Pratt-Whitney is putting ads up all over Washington casting the second JSF engine as "wasteful spending" but the reality is if the second engine is eliminated, they win big-time.

Although this contract does explain why, a few days ago, that Boeing announced it was going to be hiring 500+ people at its plant here. Boeing is always a news topic here, always hiring and laying off people, and having the unions fuck with them. They have a really huge facility in Gresham, where they do a lot of their machining.

Looking for work, Toddowen?

Screw_Michigan wrote:Northrop decides not to bid on the IKYABWAI-X tanker

FTFY

Yeah, that's what R-Jerk said, you fucking idiot.

Derron wrote:

Mikey wrote:

Derron wrote:This is just a continuing saga of Northrup versus Boeing versus Lockheed versus McDonald that has been going on for the last 50 years.

Haven't been keeping up much, have you? McDonnell merged with Douglas in the 60s. McDonnell Douglas merged with Boeing in 1997.

Well aware of the mergers. Just laid it out has the players involved over the last 50 years..read much ?

Thought maybe you were talking about McDonald's. They don't actually build airplanes.

smackaholic wrote:

Dinsdale wrote:Haven't checked any of the specs for the new shit, but I really hope it isn't yet another boondoggle, and the plane offers a major improvement over the venerable KC-135R, which they have about a zillion of already.

Good point, which leads to another question. Does the KC-135 really need replacing? Are the airframe still servicable? We still use the B-52 which is older than the KC.

ah yes, the good old workhorse, the KC 135 Stratotanker...

Those are the planes I worked on 30 years ago during my stint as a not so glorified flightline grease monkey/gas station attendant. They were headaches then, they have to be complete maintenance nightmares by now.

The B-52 may be older, but not by much. One thing they have in common is the JP-7 screaming bitch of an engine. Designed to lift and carry heavy payloads, these fuckers generate some raw thrust. If you've ever seen one of them take-off, you've seen the black smoke pouring out the exhaust. IIRC, that's from water vapor being injected into the combustion chamber, but I'd have no idea how that works.

At one time, I thought the whole KC-135 fleet was going to be replaced by KC-10's. I guess that was on a limited basis, but that KC-10 looked sweet to a guy covered in hot engine oil from a JP-7.

And btw, Boeing has a plant in Wichita so not so sure that Kansas minds what happens to NG.

War Wagon wrote:If you've ever seen one of them take-off, you've seen the black smoke pouring out the exhaust. IIRC, that's from water vapor being injected into the combustion chamber, but I'd have no idea how that works.

Well, as long as the guy wrenching on the planes has no idea how it works, it's all good with Uncle Sam.

In my limited knowledge of turbine engines, I believe they turn on the water injectors to aid cooling, which allows them to crank a bunch more kerosene through the sucker at takeoff. Taking off with a heavy load takes a lot more thrust than keeping one in the air. Plus, I believe the vaporized water coming out the ass actually provides a little extra thrust, the obvious limitation being that water adds weight, so there's definitely a point of diminishing returns on how much/how long of a "water assist" is ideal.

I stood near two of those suckers warming up for takeoff at Fairchild AFB, and those engines ain't fucking around.

Dinsdale wrote:In my limited knowledge

A pig just flew overhead...

Toddowen wrote:
Maybe I'll foreward them a resume' and see what gets offered.

You can make it a pretty short commute -- if you don't mind living in the shithole known as Gresham. Boeing isn't too far from more tolerable neighborhoods, though.

PSUFAN wrote:

Dinsdale wrote:In my limited knowledge

A pig just flew overhead...

Dinsdale wrote: Well, as long as the guy wrenching on the planes has no idea how it works, it's all good with Uncle Sam.

I kicked tires. The OMS (Organizational Maintenance Squadron) had a different shop for every specialty... hydraulics, sheetmetal, avionics, engines, etc.

My job was to launch and recover... Aside from the mundane duties, we got to marshal in aircraft. I was that guy standing there waving flashlights at night trying to park these sumbitches in their designated hole. I was that guy the pilot completely ignored.

Those KC-135's got to have some serious frame fatigue going on.

I decided I did not like that airframe in the 707 configuration when I flew back from Denver to PDX in one about 1979.

Not that it is every rough or turbulent around Denver :doh: , but the fucking wings on that bitch were heaving up and down about 3 to 4 feet at the tip. Roughest ride I ever was on...feet braced..hands on the overhead...it was nice to see them go from domestic service, plus a long takeoff roll..

my gramps was an engineer at P&W in the 50-60s. He said they would run a wide open fire hose into the intake while testing them and that they ran better that way.

Derron wrote:Those KC-135's got to have some serious frame fatigue going on.

The KC-135 design preceded 707's - but I've read that many of them are good to go until 2040. There are only a handful of aircraft models that have been in service for 50+ years.

Rack! those old bitches.

All depends on how many cycles it has been through....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243

there is little frame fatigue because the entire fuselage doesn't go through pressurization cycles. the wings flapping like a goose can be managed through maintenance. i suspect they just change the entire wing out when they show signs of fatigue. are they still using the old P-7 engines? i would suspect they'd go to a more modern hi bypass design by now for better economy or maybe the larger diameter newer engines wouldn't have enough ground clearance.

Dinsdale wrote:Although this contract does explain why, a few days ago, that Boeing announced it was going to be hiring 500+ people at its plant here. Boeing is always a news topic here, always hiring and laying off people, and having the unions fuck with them. They have a really huge facility in Gresham, where they do a lot of their machining.

Looking for work, Toddowen?

I think Tarddowen would find more of his peers working in Charleston (at least based on Charleston's previous performance on the 787).

Toddowen wrote:I'm staying put.

It took me a long time to find a shop that wasn't run as if the V-2 needed to be rolled out the door yesterday in order to secure victory for the Führer.

Figures that Tarddowen is too much of a pussy to handle pressure. Glad you enjoy making paper airplanes.

What kind of an aerospace manufacture can you work for if they don't handle AOG orders?

Why you hayting on Todd?

War Wagon wrote:Why you hayting on Todd?

Because he's there.