T1B

Concur.

Gee, when you put it like that, it sounds pretty fucked up.

I humor my wife by allowing her to raise my son Catholic. Of course when he's old enough to understand, I plan on telling him it is all bullshit.

Rack the fuck out of 88. If only any sermon I heard growing up was a sliver as hilarious as that.

Wow. An "atheist" goes to church on Easter Sunday. What would be the opposite ? Anyway, rack 88 for attending, and not getting turned into a pillar of salt or something.

Great stuff. Where did the diddling little boys thing come into it?

88 wrote:A few years later. God decided he really needed a ritual sacrifice.

Actually God decided this from the beginning.

Why?

Van, myself, I have many questions for God.
Yours might be on my list.

What God has chosen to give us is His Word, and it hardly explains all things to us.

What we see in the Word is that God fully planned for the salvation of "His people" from the beginning.


Why this method?
Why didn't He do this instead?
Wouldn't this have made more sense?

Yes, we could jerk ourselves off to these questions for a very long time.

Truth is, He's done what He's done.

Christ rose.

Make no mistake about that.
From the bottom of my heart, I do hope you come to that conclusion.

Ask him when the sky is going to fall.

pop, lacking the answers to even the most basic questions, why would anything else matter?

The most fundamental question to explore is, "Did Jesus really rise from the dead?"

One could research it with an open mind.
It's not difficult.

When it's concluded that this event is the truth, other questions become very small.

I don't suspect you take my word on that, but fwiw, that's my experience.

You can do what you want with it.

Well, pop, obviously no one knows if that really happened, and it's more than likely that it didn't happen, so what then?

the more times i hear the whole jesus fairy tale, the better buddhism looks.

i'm not openly hostile to the whole thing like lets turd is, as i realize that much good has been done in the name of jesus, but jesus h fukkin' christ on a popsicle stick, couldn't they have come up with a better story? how does some fukk getting tacked up make it OK for me to be a douchebag? it just doesn't compute.

88's theme song

I stood on the ridge and shunned religion...

poptart wrote:The most fundamental question to explore is, "Did Jesus really rise from the dead?"

One could research it with an open mind.
It's not difficult.

When it's concluded that this event is the truth, other questions become very small.

I don't suspect you take my word on that, but fwiw, that's my experience.

You can do what you want with it.

Research implies the existence of irrefutable empirical evidence. Or at least some empirical evidence. Care to drop a link that shows some form of empirical evidence. And no, the Bible doesn't count.

What If the resurrection happened?

What if the resurrection never happend?

If you believe it happened, and it didn't, you have lost nothing.

If you believe it never happened, and it did............you have lost everything.

Guess which I choose.

WAR the Empty tomb, and the price He paid for all our sins

Either way it's just a belief, so it doesn't matter.

Van wrote:Either way it's just a belief, so it doesn't matter.

Not if what Poptart said is true. He seems to think that you should be able to Google Jesus and presto! Instant proof that Jesus was raised from the dead.

Van and 88 and BSmack,

If it isn't true, why did the entire world change because of some, "made up story"? If it is a total lie, why does everyone care?

Reflect on the word "conscience". You had one when you were young, and still do. All humans do. Where does it come from? If there is a choice to be "good" or "bad", why choose "good"? Why have all societies, and individuals, since civilization has been established chosen one or the other?

Who decides what is is "evil".

How did YOU decide? How does society?

Big question: Since Plato, Thomas Aquinas, Lincoln, C.S. Lewis, Constantine, Jefferson, , Moses, Mother Theresa, Thomas More...oh heck...name the former scholars and philosophers that have lived on the planet, said that there IS a God, and you say there is NOT one,............who are you to disagree? Thier equal? Really?

I questioned. I found answers. And like the above, they and I didn't need "the existence of irrefutable empirical evidence. Or at least some empirical evidence." Even though history gives us that.

Faith and Intelligence.

Van wrote:Either way it's just a belief, so it doesn't matter.

Yes, it does matter. Maybe not you.

It is the truth, it happened. Not a "belief".

BTW, what year is it?

:D

BSmack wrote:Gee, when you put it like that, it sounds pretty fucked up.

I humor my wife by allowing her to raise my son Catholic. Of course when he's old enough to understand, I plan on telling him it is all bullshit.

2nd. The new baby is set to be baptized in the catholic church. My wife and her family are Catholic. My parents believe a baby should be dedicated and later be baptized when they can make that choice for themselves.

There we go again....different beliefs/interpretation/etc. Maybe the families should go to war over "when" a child should be baptised? Hell, chop off a few heads and burn down some houses over it!!!!! Yea! That'll show God how much we "love" Him and believe!!!!!!! Yea!!!!! <------- probably the biggest problem I have with religion(s)

By the way, this reminds me of the "discussions" I had years ago whether or not "jewish" was a race of people or not.

Janet and I were talking about this today and we were still incredulous at the complete non-sensical "logic" of some people, even after I mentioned Tay-Sachs disease. A HORRIBLE affliction! Apparently, it comes from a man and woman because of the buildings that they attend worship services in, not from the race that they are a part of.

Sometimes, facts have to be DRILLED into peoples brains before they realize how stupid they have made themselves. And even STILL they try to remain morons.

Amazing.

What a wonderful world.

Roger_the_Shrubber wrote:
Sometimes, facts have to be DRILLED into peoples brains before they realize how stupid they have made themselves. And even STILL they try to remain morons.

.

You mean how there is nearly irrefutable evidence that the earth is much, much older than 15,000 years yet "some" refuse to accept this?

"There is nearly irrefutable evidence that the earth is much, much older than 15,000 years?"

Of course it is.

"yet "some" refuse to accept this?"

Who are these "some"? I am not one.

What does that have to do with anything? Yep, there were dinosaurs. And Wooly mammoths, and T-Rex and the Earth used to be a big glob of goo until gravity flung it all together to make a planet.

Your point?


BTW, I would REALLY like you to answer some of the questions I posed in the "van, 88 and b-smack" post a few posts up. you know,....the hard questions?

Roger_the_Shrubber wrote:Big question: Since Plato, Thomas Aquinas, Lincoln, C.S. Lewis, Constantine, Jefferson, , Moses, Mother Theresa, Thomas More...oh heck...name the former scholars and philosophers that have lived on the planet, said that there IS a God, and you say there is NOT one,............who are you to disagree? Thier equal? Really?

Jefferson?

Thomas Jefferson?

Christian?



"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors. "

"If we could believe that he [Jesus] really countenanced the follies, the falsehoods, and the charlatanism which his biographers [Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John,] father on him, and admit the misconstructions, interpolations, and theorizations of the fathers of the early, and the fanatics of the latter ages, the conclusion would be irresistible by every sound mind that he was an impostor"

"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, of so much absurdity, so much untruth and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate, therefore, the gold from the dross, restore to him the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some and the roguery of others of his disciples"


My three favorite Jefferson quotes on religion...

"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear."

"The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills."

*Edit*
Fuck it here is some more from that great "christian" jefferson

"You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

"Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live."

"May it be to the world, what I believe it will be, (to some parts sooner, to others later, but finally to all,) the signal of arousing men to burst the chains under which monkish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves, and to assume the blessings and security of self-government. All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God."

Roger_the_Shrubber wrote:

Van wrote:Either way it's just a belief, so it doesn't matter.

Yes, it does matter. Maybe not you.

It is the truth, it happened. Not a "belief".

BTW, what year is it?

:D

Sorry, Shrub, but the falling Roman empire simply fell ill to the contagion of the Attic Man cult--this time packaged by the rabid (Jerusalem just leveled and salted) Jews who revived the ol' Perfect Man myth (the Essene version of the same guy, circa 250 bce) as "Christ" and it just took root, like an STD (or a cancer, really), spreading its infirmity straight unto the Dark Ages (you know, burning all of the Greek knowledge, drama, etc., ending the Olympics after 1000 years of uninterrupted observance). The Christer era has in fact been nothing but the promotion of ignorance, intolerance, fear, and subjugation of women. It is entirely disgraceful and shameful to anything that could be called a Man. Islam is really no better and Judaism is of course the most depraved and disgusting religion ever. Just ask a Jew.

Wake the fuck up!

LTS TRN 2 wrote: took root, like an STD (or a cancer, really), spreading its infirmity straight unto the Dark Ages (you know, burning all of the Greek knowledge, drama, etc.,

Wake the fuck up!

The Dark Ages were the result of the depredations of Germanic and Nordic barbarians. The Renaissance never would have happened without the Catholic Church. They were the ones who preserved that knowledge from the past.

The Christer era has in fact been nothing but the promotion of ignorance

Speaking of ignorance, care to guess where the children of well to do families sent their children to learn to read and write? They went to monastaries, idiot. The entire modern university system developed from Christian institutions. Churchs ran (and still run)hospitals, orphanages and schools and universities and provide weak minded people with some measure of comfort as they struggle through life.

Your opinion is characterisitically myopic and entirely uniformed. You're merely a different stripe of irrational, tubthumping religious fundie.

Mr T wrote:

Roger_the_Shrubber wrote:Big question: Since Plato, Thomas Aquinas, Lincoln, C.S. Lewis, Constantine, Jefferson, , Moses, Mother Theresa, Thomas More...oh heck...name the former scholars and philosophers that have lived on the planet, said that there IS a God, and you say there is NOT one,............who are you to disagree? Thier equal? Really?

Jefferson?

Thomas Jefferson?

Christian?

there's nothing in there about jefferson being a christian.

aside from that, what a gay argument. some people said something's true despite their inability to demonstrate as much? your "questions" are equally retarded. the entire world didn't change because of jesus, as you insist. there are still seasons, physical laws, astronomy, etc. that exist just as they did before some arbitrary date you present as further "proof" of jesus as god. granted, it's impossible to disprove god's existence, but until you can reason past "i have faith" i'll just go ahead and assume natural laws didn't take a three-day break so jesus could wake up dead and fly off into the sky.

Roger_the_Shrubber wrote:By the way, this reminds me of the "discussions" I had years ago whether or not "jewish" was a race of people or not.

Janet and I were talking about this today and we were still incredulous at the complete non-sensical "logic" of some people, even after I mentioned Tay-Sachs disease. A HORRIBLE affliction! Apparently, it comes from a man and woman because of the buildings that they attend worship services in, not from the race that they are a part of.

You can't convert to a race dipshit.

sin

BSmack wrote:Not if what Poptart said is true. He seems to think that you should be able to Google Jesus and presto! Instant proof that Jesus was raised from the dead.

Huh?

I've never said or implied any such thing.

The Bible makes it very clear that God wants our faith.

If the resurrection was a well established fact (that can be Googled) no faith would be needed.

That said, there is an abundance of evidence that Jesus is the Christ and the He did resurrect.

The evidence is easy to look up and it is also all around you.

BSmack wrote: You can't convert to a race dipshit.

Jews are not a race.

They are, however, racially orientated.

poptart wrote:

BSmack wrote:Not if what Poptart said is true. He seems to think that you should be able to Google Jesus and presto! Instant proof that Jesus was raised from the dead.

Huh? I've never said or implied any such thing. The Bible makes it very clear that God wants our faith. If the resurrection was a well established fact (that can be Googled) no faith would be needed. That said, there is an abundance of evidence that Jesus is the Christ and the He did resurrect. The evidence is easy to look up and it is also all around you.

Then drop a link in. Because for the last 500 years, serious scholars have attempted to find this evidence you speak of and can find nothing.

Technically, Good Friday is the celebration of the murder and Easter is the celebration of the resurrection. I always hated Holy Thursday the most though.

they celebrate the crucifixion of jesus not so much for the intercession but because it gives them a reason to hate jews.

BSmack wrote:Gee, when you put it like that, it sounds pretty fucked up.

I humor my wife by allowing her to raise my son Catholic. Of course when he's old enough to understand, I plan on telling him it is all bullshit.

Further proof that breeding should require a license.

Roger_the_Shrubber wrote:Van and 88 and BSmack,

If it isn't true, why did the entire world change because of some, "made up story"?

The entire world also changed because of Islam, so why aren't you Islamic? There are more Asians than there are Christians, and the majority of them didn't change. Why not?

America also changed because of Walmart, NASCAR, McDonalds and MTV. Oh, and Obama is all hopey changey too.

Your point?

If it is a total lie, why does everyone care?

People throughout history have cared about all sorts of lies. Most of mankind's guiding tenets have been lies.

Earth has well over six billion people, and if the Christians are correct, four billion-plus people believe in a lie; if the Christians are wrong, that's another billion or two people who believe in a total lie.

If the atheists are right, most of the planet believes in a total lie.

Which of these groups doesn't believe in a lie? No one knows. You sure as hell don't.

Reflect on the word "conscience". You had one when you were young, and still do. All humans do.

No, we don't.

Sin,
Nick Saban

Where does it come from? If there is a choice to be "good" or "bad", why choose "good"? Why have all societies, and individuals, since civilization has been established chosen one or the other?

Right and Wrong, Good and Evil and the choices people typically made between them existed long before Christ.

Who decides what is is "evil".

Jim Delaney and CBS's contract with the Meatgrinder.

How did YOU decide?

If my cock says it's a go, it's a go.

How does society?

By turning on their TV and waiting to see what Oprah tells them to do.

Big question: Since Plato, Thomas Aquinas, Lincoln, C.S. Lewis, Constantine, Jefferson, , Moses, Mother Theresa, Thomas More...oh heck...name the former scholars and philosophers that have lived on the planet, said that there IS a God, and you say there is NOT one,............who are you to disagree?

There have been plenty of Big Name Atheists too, Rog. Also, what about all the Eastern scholars who aren't Christian? Most of them think you're an idiot for believing in what you do.

Thier equal? Really?

When it comes to matter of divinity, yes, I am their equal. I know every bit as much about it as they ever did, which is precisely fuckall.

I questioned. I found answers.

You found the easy answers you wanted to find. Had you been Roger the Mongol you would've 'found' a different set of answers, and you would've believed in them every bit as fervently while being every bit as clueless as to their veracity.

You believe because you want to believe, and this is what you've been led to believe.

And like the above, they and I didn't need "the existence of irrefutable empirical evidence. Or at least some empirical evidence." Even though history gives us that.

No, it doesn't.

Faith and Intelligence.

Lacking any of the latter, you put all your eggs in the basket of the former.

88,

The concept of communion is more or less the compliance with Christ's request to "Do this in memory of me".
I think much of it stems from the Jewish roots of Christianity wherein during passover a lamb was slaughtered and eaten.

Lot of symbolism and mystical stuff in that there bible.

Science, has brought much convenience in our lives. Convenience we're now being told is killing the planet. Great foresight there. I don't think scientists fully thought through the whole notion of chemical warfare, biological warfare, and nuclear warfare. And when science finally does get their hands on the magic potion for cloning, or even to reproduce "the big bang", we're pretty well fucked.

Science is discovery of that which God created. Religion has attempted to take a CONSERVATIVE approach to the scientific discoveries for reasons, some good, some not so good (to maintain power and control). But I think if we look back not all scientific discovery has necessarily been a benefit to mankind and even it was of benefit to mankind - it was achieved at great costs and suffering to mankind. Take a peek at some of the physics used in the space chase of the 50's by work done in SS labs using Jewish slaves for labor and experiments, likewise many medical "wonders" were discovered throughout Dr. Mengele's little experiments.

Spirituality without Science is not complete. Science without a guide, via spirituality is not complete. Without each other, both can be very dangerous.

I believe Jesus was who he said He was. I cannot prove it. But I do know that anyone who seeks - in earnest - can find Him. All he need do is pray*



*Please consult psychiatric help if in prayer you think Jesus wants you to steal, kill, commit adultery, etc.. etc.. chances are you're confusing his words for yours.




Happy New Liturgical Year

Tom wrote:But I do know that anyone who seeks - in earnest - can find Him. All he need do is pray

Nope. You believe that. You don't know it. Or, rather, sure, by hedging your bet and saying they can find Him as opposed to saying they will find Him, okay, sure.

They can find Him merely by worshipping a head of lettuce. In fact, I saw that very thing occur in an episode of What's Happening?

I'm here to tell you, though, that merely seeking in earnest and praying offer no guarantees of finding faith.

Van wrote: I'm here to tell you, though, that merely seeking in earnest and praying offer no guarantees of finding faith.

If you're speaking from you experience, I am sorry.

I am, and I can also guarantee you that I am hardly alone.