Student Loans (and the american dream..wakey wakey...)

[Onions]

Truth in lending and in careers
By Howard B. Miller
President, State Bar of California

Those of us in leadership positions in bar organizations need to look closely at the lives of those seeking to begin the practice of law, and where changes in the economy and the profession are leading them.

The economic impact of the great recession has been acute. For graduates in 2008, 2009 and this year, the combination of the number entering practice, the lack of jobs and the levels of debt are devastating personally to those involved and should be to all of us who care about our profession.

The exact numbers at the margins are not as clear as we would like, because so much involves small firms and personal circumstance, and many of the changes are too recent for complete accuracy. The average debt of law graduates now approaches or exceeds $100,000, and because of recent increases in tuition, especially at public institutions which historically have been more affordable, debt burdens will be even greater in a couple of years.

At least 10,000 lawyers, probably more, including many, many mid-level associates with no place to go, have been officially laid off during this recession. Many more have job offers with deferred entry dates, or are counted as “employed” while voluntarily interning for nothing, or are in temporary lawyer jobs reviewing documents for $15-$20 an hour, with no security and jobs that can disappear at any moment.

There is notoriously unreliable self-reporting by law schools and their graduates of employment statistics. They are unreliable in only one direction, since the self-reporting by law schools of “employment” of graduates at graduation and then nine months after graduation are, together, a significant factor in the U.S. News rankings — which are obsessed over, despite denials, by law schools and their constituencies. The anecdotes are as telling as the statistics: prestigious lawyers in the state are hiring their own children to work in their firms because even with their connections they were unable to find employment elsewhere. And if things do pick up, those in the classes of 2008, 2009 and now 2010, whatever they will have been doing, are unlikely to be viewed favorably by firms as first-year entry hires.

These realities may be starting to have some impact on those considering a legal career. A recent survey by the Kaplan organization showed that though 52 percent of pre-law students are “very confident” of finding a legal job after graduating from law school, only 16 percent of those students are “very confident” their classmates will have similar success. Yet as often happens during a recession, when college graduates are also having difficulty finding jobs, the number of applications to law schools is up, reflecting a traditional role of legal education serving as a contingent backup plan for those uncertain about their futures. So there are likely to be even more lawyers unable to get jobs, except perhaps those who do well at national elite law schools, and those who already have a guaranteed family connection.

For the foreseeable future the starter jobs that provided traditional training for those lawyers are not coming back (See Miller, Structural or Cyclical?, President’s Column, February 2010 California Bar Journal). Out of necessity, and without any practical experience, many unemployed lawyers are or will be setting up their own solo, usually community-based, practices. Those practices can be enormously satisfying, and when done well are needed by clients. Given the current state of legal education and what the bar exam tests, however, it is far from clear those lawyers are qualified to do so, and will not just be a risk to themselves but to their potential clients.

Do we in the profession have an obligation to deal with all this — especially the State Bar of California? I think we do.

First, for those who will have already graduated and passed the bar exam, we need to plan on developing post-graduate and post-bar passage legal education practice courses, continuing a tradition, as in the value of apprenticeships, of the profession training its own, focusing on law practice management, the needs of clients and how to meet those needs — especially by shaping new pricing models besides the billable hour to attract clients suspicious of legal fees. The market demand is there if we can train and price to meet it. We need not only courses, but the commitment of experienced lawyers to act as mentors in developing practice skills and helping to think through the new models as well. We may need to absorb much of the cost of doing this ourselves and provide additional recognition to young practitioners by giving certificates of practice that clients and consumers will look to in choosing lawyers.

Second, the Committee of Bar Examiners, in consultation with California-accredited as well as ABA law schools, needs to begin a serious study of what kind of tests will genuinely determine who is qualified to practice law. Even according to those who administer the bar exam, it is at best only a test of minimum competence of one atypical aspect of being a lawyer: the application through recall alone of certain black letter rules under artificial conditions. It uses computers, but only to write. The exam takes no advantage of modern technology to replicate client interviews, counseling, negotiation or trial activities with real time — realistic responses that could be used to judge true lawyer skills.

How many would want a surgeon to operate on them who had only been tested on a written exam, without seeing or operating on a patient, even in a simulation? The bar exam continues to exist as an accepted but flawed tradition, with only tangential problem solving connections to representing clients or any realistic certification of the ability to practice law. The coming changes in law practice, in its pricing models and client expectations for community-based solo practices, will require those of us who have been deeply involved in the current structure of the bar exam to think through what an effective qualification exam must be, which, in addition, can have an impact on necessary changes at the law schools as well. (See Miller, Legal Education for the 21st Century, President’s Column, April 2010 California Bar Journal.)

Finally, we need to be transparent with potential lawyers about the cost and benefits of studying law. All law schools need to gather, verify and report, in consistent and specified ways, the employment record of their graduates, as well report on those who may have started, paid tuition, but never graduated. A good place to start is with our own California-accredited and registered law schools, over which the State Bar and the Committee of Bar Examiners have jurisdiction.

People are and should be free to make their own choices, based on full information and transparency. Fortunately there will always be those who choose to become lawyers. I would, regardless of the cost and risks. But those costs and risks must be made known. And clients are and should be free to choose their own lawyers. We are talking here about the basic integrity of the profession as a whole. Those who are deciding whether to study law should have full information and transparency on what they are facing. Clients should have confidence that the lawyer they consult has actually been taught, trained and is qualified to practice law. Who would argue to do anything less?

[mvscal]

At least 10,000 lawyers, probably more, including many, many mid-level associates with no place to go, have been officially laid off during this recession.

Well there's a silver lining to the cloud after all.

[Onions]

At least 10,000 lawyers, probably more, including many, many mid-level associates with no place to go, have been officially laid off during this recession.

Well there's a silver lining to the cloud after all.

the silver lining is that over 10 thousand attorneys are now sucking government teet?

[mvscal]

Not likely. It wouldn't matter anyway since lawyers are parasites regardless of host. Anything that reduces their numbers will eventually benefit the economy.

[Onions]

Not likely. It wouldn't matter anyway since lawyers are parasites regardless of host. Anything that reduces their numbers will eventually benefit the economy.

mvscal, i am curious, what is your take on the possibility of a student loan bailout?

[mvscal]

The financial industry has its cock stuffed so far up Pres__ent Hussein's ass that there is absolutely no chance that they will be exposed on student loans no matter extravagent the loss.

[Onions]

The financial industry has its cock stuffed so far up Pres__ent Hussein's ass that there is absolutely no chance that they will be exposed on student loans no matter extravagent the loss.

and who or what is at fault for this debacle?

the entire philosophy of private education?

the lenders?

the universities? the parents? the students?

[trev]

Ultimately students and parents are at fault. They asked for this debt, they got it.

[mvscal]

Well you can't pay off your student loan if you don't have a job, right?

The debacle is the shitty job market and Pres__ent Zero is only making things worse by increasing federal spending by 300% over Chimpy's already ridiculous level of spending.

[Roger_the_Shrubber]

88,

That was a GREAT freaking post!!!!!!!

Well said!

[Terry in Crapchester]

Your only options should be: . . . (2) fuck the lender over by declaring bankruptcy provided you also lose the ability to have any borrowing ability until you demonstrate over a reasonable amount of time post-bankruptcy that you are now more responsible with credit.

And therein lies the problem. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to discharge student loan debt in bankruptcy? Unless you can show undue hardship (which doesn't mean what most of us ordinarily would think it does) to yourself and/or a dependent if the debt is not discharged, then the debt stays. It's actually easier to get income tax debt discharged in bankruptcy than it is to get student loan debt discharged.

Meanwhile, there is no possible public policy rationale for treating student loan debt in the same manner as, among others, debts for: fraud, embezzlement in a fiduciary capacity, child support, intentional torts, debts incurred as a result of driving while intoxicated, etc.

[Goober McTuber]

Not to mention the fact that the majority of these borrowers are finishing school in their early 20’s and have plenty of time to pay back those loans.

[M Club]

regardless of shedding student loan debt in bankruptcy, who the fuck spends $100,000 on a gender and religious studies degree (per that recent nyt article)? it's like $20/month just to get an internet hookup and find a lesbo message board, not to mention emailing poptart is probably free.

[Screw_Michigan]

Just a couple of broads with absolutely no sense when it comes to finances and lending. No surprise here.

[Mikey]

All she needs to do is find an unmarried male (or female for that matter, she's in SF after all) engineering major with some earning potential, who has an appreciation for tatted up beyotches.

[Screw_Michigan]

Yeah, but as the article says, they'll never marry her because of her debt load, and because of that, she won't have access to their community property cash in a divorce settlement. So she's screwed. Plus, she's not hot enough to be pulling guys from that prime-income wealth category.

[R-Jack]

This ^^^^ is what is wrong with America.

You kidding? If anything, that is what's RIGHT with America.

Think about it. What other country has it good enough to spawn off generations of whiney cunt bitches like that mom and daughter combo? Any other part of the planet the best career option for either of those whorthless hosebags is the getting the honor of having drunk Japanese businessmen shitting in their mouths. Here they get to make $45,000 snapping pictures of fags and running bed and breakfasts for............well.............. probably fags too.

You gotta RACK a country where brain-dead non-entities like this can prosper and still think they have it rough.

[Screw_Michigan]

And now she's working the system by attending night school. I wonder what rocket science classes she is enrolled in these days?

Not really, compound interest is a fucking BITCH.

[Wolfman]

^^^^^^^^^^
Eggzactly !
Why would anyone bother going to college unless it was required to go into a certain occupation like doctor, lawyer, teacher, nurse ? All these women's studies/black studies/TGIF or whatever the hell they call them studies are bullshit.
And your point about driving up costs is correct. When I was doing graduate work, I paid the then budget busting amount for in state tuition at SUNY Oneonta of $20 a credit hour. I didn't need a student loan for that.

[indyfrisco]

Plus, she's not hot enough to be pulling guys from that prime-income wealth category.

Correct. I'd rather punch her ugly face than fuck it.

[BSmack]

I have no sympathy for these fucks. None at all.

Really?

I don't have any sympathy for her either.

But hating that 315er and her mom for not wanting to give up her B&B in beautiful (for 4 months a year) Alexandria Bay doesn't resolve anything. It does us no good to turn this young woman into a wage slave for life. We would be better served as a country if Uncle Sam discharged her loans in return for say 4 years of helping to rebuild that shithole of a city you live near. She could learn a useful trade and we would get the benefits of a rebuilt infrastructure.

BTW: My college advisers told me 25 years ago that history was a solid major with lots of great jobs waiting for me after graduation. What they didn't tell me was that all those jobs required graduate level education to even begin to make any money. What I will be telling my son 15 years from now is that he should never go into debt for an education. Ever.

I'm actually going back to school myself. The schooling I am paying for right now is all on my own dime with money that I have saved. Fuck loans. The day my money runs out is the day I go to school part time and go back to the workforce full time. This is why I bought that shoebox house that Bushice mocked, so I could afford to be unemployed for a while because I knew that my lack of a technical degree would eventually hurt me in the job market. Guts and guile don't trump certifications and degrees in a bad job market. Fuck Bushice too. Where is he? Probably in a refrigerator box somewhere blowing strangers for mortgage money.

[indyfrisco]

Do your kids a favor and save up so they don't have to pay for their own school. I began saving for my kids' school before I got married. I have been saving for their education 9.5 years now. I have enough in their 529s to send one of them to a perfectly good state school for 4 years and another for 1 year. Luckily, my kids are 4, 2, and one in the womb, which will be the last one. And with a little market rebound along with my yearly contributions, they should all have enough to go to grad school should they wish and the rest we will gift them as a head start for their children since the 529s can be passed along to future generations.

[Screw_Michigan]

While paying for your kids' entire college education is a fine gesture, most of the kids I knew at WMU who dropped out after 2-4 years were kids who didn't have any skin in the game, so they didn't care if they dropped out or didn't care about classes in general. Sure, you don't want an astronomical debt load, but sometimes being financially obligated to your own success or failure is enough motivation for them to care about their financial/employment futures.

[OCmike]

Plus, she's not hot enough to be pulling guys from that prime-income wealth category.

You'd be surprised. The smoking hot remoras are mostly found further south on the peninsula and in the South Bay (silicon valley).

And SF women are mostly academics, artsy fucks (read: unshowered), poor Asia/Pacific immigrants and addicts. So it's sad, but for SF she's a pretty solid 8.

[Sirfindafold]

We would be better served as a country if Uncle Sam discharged her loans in return for say 4 years of helping to rebuild that shithole of a city you live near.

Yeah, lets just keep on expanding government. This country doesn't need anymore jizz-moppers, especially on the government payroll.

get fucked.

[BSmack]

We would be better served as a country if Uncle Sam discharged her loans in return for say 4 years of helping to rebuild that shithole of a city you live near.

Yeah, lets just keep on expanding government. This country doesn't need anymore jizz-moppers, especially on the government payroll. get fucked.

I'm pretty sure demolishing abandoned houses, building roads, landscaping parks, building houses, removing asbestos etc. are not in the realm of your average jizz mopper's job description. Screwy? Your thoughts?

[Screw_Michigan]

Right on, BGrift. All those duties require manual labor, not just moving a mop.

[Mikey]

^^^^^^^^^^
When I was doing graduate work, I paid the then budget busting amount for in state tuition at SUNY Oneonta of $20 a credit hour. I didn't need a student loan for that.

Of course you didn't.

You were getting an essentially free education paid for by the genreous taxpayers of NY, you government teat sucking welfare whore hypocrite.

In case you haven't been following along for the past 55 years or so, the cost of a degree at a public university has risen slightly since then. When I was in the UC system the tuition was $250/quarter and I could pay my own way with a bartending / table waiting job even while living at the beach in Del Mar. The tuition for my daughter at UC Irvine was something like $12,000 this year and will be going up substantially next year. Add about $700/month to share a 2 br apt. with 3 other students (not even counting books and food here) and you can see why a lot of them come out with huge debt.

[Sirfindafold]

I'm pretty sure demolishing abandoned houses, building roads, landscaping parks, building houses, removing asbestos etc. are not in the realm of your average jizz mopper's job description. Screwy? Your thoughts?

I'm pretty sure this broad is qualified as your run-of-the-mill jizz mopper, nothing else.

[Smackie Chan]

Looks like the hideous love child of Marilyn Manson and Chris Robinson.

[BSmack]

If she isn't willing to move away from San Francisco, what makes you think she would be willing to do any of that? She's into the arts, man. She won't swing a hammer or do anything remotely productive.

If that really is the case, then fuck her. But something tells me that she would take the ticket to Cleveland and a 4 year hitch rebuilding your "fair" city.

Plus, the federal government is already chock full of idiots in "service" programs that don't do a damn thing. The City Year office used to be located in the building next to mine downtown. Talk about a complete waste of tax dollars. Those people did absolutely nothing all day.

Then put the Army Corps of Engineers in charge of the project. Fuck man, why can't we just get things done in this country. We used to be able to send a man to the moon. Now we can't even clean up Cleveland?

[PSUFAN]

Only a complete moron borrows 100k for a liberal arts degree from NYU...and has the balls to cry about repaying the loan.

You gotta RACK a country where brain-dead non-entities like this can prosper and still think they have it rough.

Exactimundo.

[Screw_Michigan]

But something tells me that she would take the ticket to Cleveland and a 4 year hitch rebuilding your "fair" city.

Probably only if it meant wiping her $100k (and rising) off the books. Even if she got that generous gift, she went to fucking NYU and lives in SF. She'd probably go into prostitution before choosing to move to Cleveland.

[BSmack]

But something tells me that she would take the ticket to Cleveland and a 4 year hitch rebuilding your "fair" city.

Probably only if it meant wiping her $100k (and rising) off the books. Even if she got that generous gift, she went to fucking NYU and lives in SF. She'd probably go into prostitution before choosing to move to Cleveland.

That would be the equivalent of having a 25,000 a year job with room and board. It's not the gravy train, but isn't exactly the debtors prison some of the folks on this board would like to see her thrown into either.

[Screw_Michigan]

I think it sounds pretty fair.

[indyfrisco]

While paying for your kids' entire college education is a fine gesture, most of the kids I knew at WMU who dropped out after 2-4 years were kids who didn't have any skin in the game, so they didn't care if they dropped out or didn't care about classes in general. Sure, you don't want an astronomical debt load, but sometimes being financially obligated to your own success or failure is enough motivation for them to care about their financial/employment futures.

I know the type you are talking about. I have seen my fair share. A lot of that comes down to parenting though. Parenting isn't simply writing a blank check. The same parent who writes the blank check who does not prepare their child for the real world will likely have the same result with their child as the parent who does not pay for their kid's school as well as not preparing them for the real world.

While my education was paid for by scholarship and my parents, I felt like I had skin in the game. Parents told me if I got a D or worse in any class, I was paying my own way. And before you say that my parents gave me an empty threat, when I was 16 and they gave me a vehicle, they told me that if I ever drank alcohol and drove, they would sell my truck. 8 months later I come home drunk as hell after being at a land party all day. I came home at 8 PM not knowing what time it was. I DID NOT DRIVE HOME. Next morning, my parents get me up at 6 AM and start questioning me. I told them I was going to drive home but my friend Derek took my keys and drove me home. They asked if I felt like I was ok to drive. I said yes. End of story. My truck went in the classified ads that day. It was parked next to the highway with a for sale sign. Within 1 day, it was sold...to another kid on my golf team. I had to see my truck driven every day by someone else while I bummed rides and had my parents pick me up. Good parenting.

And I'm raising my kids in the same way. Personal responsibility. My friend likely saved my life that night. My parents definitely changed mine the next day.

[Onions]

While paying for your kids' entire college education is a fine gesture, most of the kids I knew at WMU who dropped out after 2-4 years were kids who didn't have any skin in the game, so they didn't care if they dropped out or didn't care about classes in general. Sure, you don't want an astronomical debt load, but sometimes being financially obligated to your own success or failure is enough motivation for them to care about their financial/employment futures.

I know the type you are talking about. I have seen my fair share. A lot of that comes down to parenting though. Parenting isn't simply writing a blank check. The same parent who writes the blank check who does not prepare their child for the real world will likely have the same result with their child as the parent who does not pay for their kid's school as well as not preparing them for the real world.

While my education was paid for by scholarship and my parents, I felt like I had skin in the game. Parents told me if I got a D or worse in any class, I was paying my own way. And before you say that my parents gave me an empty threat, when I was 16 and they gave me a vehicle, they told me that if I ever drank alcohol and drove, they would sell my truck. 8 months later I come home drunk as hell after being at a land party all day. I came home at 8 PM not knowing what time it was. I DID NOT DRIVE HOME. Next morning, my parents get me up at 6 AM and start questioning me. I told them I was going to drive home but my friend Derek took my keys and drove me home. They asked if I felt like I was ok to drive. I said yes. End of story. My truck went in the classified ads that day. It was parked next to the highway with a for sale sign. Within 1 day, it was sold...to another kid on my golf team. I had to see my truck driven every day by someone else while I bummed rides and had my parents pick me up. Good parenting.

And I'm raising my kids in the same way. Personal responsibility. My friend likely saved my life that night. My parents definitely changed mine the next day.

it is as if you grew up in europe. you are far from a "made man".

[Onions]

Ultimately students and parents are at fault. They asked for this debt, they got it.

and a $8 an hour job would be a better alternative? the students attempted to better themselves, attended the best schools they could get into and probably lived a lower middle class existence for those 4 years. and at the end of those 4 years? no windows of opportunity. just a solid concrete wall to smack right into.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

I like your style, Onions.
Quite the coup you've pulled off with this thread.


Bravo.

[mvscal]

But something tells me that she would take the ticket to Cleveland and a 4 year hitch rebuilding your "fair" city.

Probably only if it meant wiping her $100k (and rising) off the books. Even if she got that generous gift, she went to fucking NYU and lives in SF. She'd probably go into prostitution before choosing to move to Cleveland.

That would be the equivalent of having a 25,000 a year job with room and board. It's not the gravy train, but isn't exactly the debtors prison some of the folks on this board would like to see her thrown into either.

Or these stupid whores can join the Army or Navy and take advantage of existing programs in exchange for service to their country. Army (and Navy) College Fund (plus MGIB) pays out a max of 81K after a six year enlistment. A full ride ROTC scholarship is also an 8 year commitment usually 4 active, 4 inactive.

Any civilian alternative would need to be a minimum of 8 years.