Should Notre Dame fire the AD and Coach?

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:14 pm

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefootbal ... ath-102910

Jason Whitlock seems to think so.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:17 pm

Jason Whitlock is a gutless hairpulling attention whore. The timing of this article is absolutely irresponsible and despicable.

Laxplayer · Post by **Laxplayer** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:20 pm

That's interesting........tough scenario.

King Crimson · Post by **King Crimson** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:20 pm

without Mizzou (too good) or KU (sucker punch a brother??) to bash, Whitlock has to write about ND?

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:24 pm

They've been a topic de jour for him since they fired Willingham and gave Weis a 5 year extention on top of his initial deal.

King Crimson · Post by **King Crimson** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:26 pm

Killian wrote:They've been a topic de jour for him since they fired Willingham and gave Weis a 5 year extention on top of his initial deal.

makes sense. color of his skin or not, Ty didn't exactly redeem himself at UW.

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:31 pm

King Crimson wrote:
Killian wrote:They've been a topic de jour for him since they fired Willingham and gave Weis a 5 year extention on top of his initial deal.
makes sense. color of his skin or not, Ty didn't exactly redeem himself at UW.

He was put into a really bad spot at UW. That job was 8,000 times better of a job when Skippy took over. It was sort of like a president inheriting an economy on a downturn and then taking blame because the economy goes into the shitter. The fact is, there's really nothing short of a miracle that you can do about it.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:37 pm

If it was 8,000 times better when Skippy took it over, it was 16,000 times better when Ty took it over, compared to what Sark inherited. Ty is an awful, awful coach.

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:38 pm

Killian wrote:If it was 8,000 times better when Skippy took it over, it was 16,000 times better when Ty took it over, compared to what Sark inherited. Ty is an awful, awful coach.

He did a solid job at Stanford and did have 1 good year at ND.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:46 pm

He was barely above .500 at Stanford during an extremely weak period for the Pac-10. His 1 good year at ND was completely smoke and mirrors.

Go Coogs' · Post by **Go Coogs'** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:51 pm

Sooooo, Killian, if the kid feared for his life before ascending up that tower and it was Kelly or another coach telling him to get his ass up there and quit being a pussy, then what should happen?

What if there is validity to what Whitlock is saying?

This is about safety. Inspections should be made everyday before an individual climbs a temporary structure. In addition, the contractor who built the tower should have specs on hand for what the structure can and cannot handle in abnormal conditions.

If this happened where I work, it wouldn't be the people who built the structure getting their pink slips, it would be the person(s) in charge of safety of the plant. In addition, the plant manager would probably be demoted or fired.

The question is, who was in charge of the players and staff's well-being?

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:53 pm

if the kid feared for his life before ascending up that tower and it was Kelly or another coach telling him to get his ass up there and quit being a pussy, then what should happen?

There's no way you can NOT fire Kelly if this were true. Problem is, how could anyone prove that? It's not like you can ask the kid.

Go Coogs' · Post by **Go Coogs'** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:03 pm

TheJON wrote:There's no way you can NOT fire Kelly if this were true. Problem is, how could anyone prove that? It's not like you can ask the kid.

Regardless, if the kid raised the question before he climbed the tower and someone with any authority told him it would be fine, then the responsible person(s) for the players and staff's safety needs to be fired.

This was no perfect storm, rather some idiot not doing their due diligence and ultimately costing some kid's life.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:11 pm

Go Coogs' wrote:a temporary structure. In addition, the contractor who built the tower should have specs on hand for what the structure

Not much of a reader these days?

It was a scissorlift. JLG, Genie, those things. And a 50-foot scissor definitely isn't the most stable thing ever -- a boom or snorkel seems like a much better choice.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:15 pm

This...

Go Coogs' wrote:What if there is validity to what Whitlock is saying?

is where your point is completely lost. Whitlock has no basis or any evidence that Kelly told the kid to get up there. The fact that he has neither of these and uses this tradegy for column filler only days after the kid died shows you what a pile of shit he is as a human. Here is a post by someone who was a manager at ND:

I was a student manager for three years at ND so yesterday’s accident hit me pretty hard. All students that assist the team (managers, trainers, film crew, etc.) take their job seriously and want to be the best. We always considered our manager organization the best in the country.

People ask why was he in the lift. Who told him to go up? The reality probably is that no one told him to go up, that was his assigned job for the day and that is what he did. He knew what was expected and he did it. Yes, he was scared but he knew what had to be done.

It hard to explain, but the mangers are not micro-managed by anyone except themselves. We knew what our jobs were and how to do them. The coaches had a job to do and we assisted them without bogging them down in the details. It’s not like someone had to tell the student to go up; he knew his job was to film.

No one probably gave any thought to the lift being up there. It was there up in the air every day for filming. Nothing unusual. It’s not like Kelly or Swarbrick ordered him up there. I am sure he loved what he was doing and wanted to do the best job possible.

I know when I was at practice I wanted nothing more than to make the practice run perfectly. That was my position: get the job done with no one noticing. I am sure that this kid felt the same way.

I know there are thousand more questions to come. I know an adult should have been overseeing the weather. I know someone should have brought him down.

But you see these kids are so committed to their work. That is what makes them special; that is what made him special! It is tough to explain but my heart is broken. He was doing what he loved and paid the ultimate price.

Maybe this is just me being emotional, but for the moment forget the blame game. The student assistants are special kids; may God always keep them in his love.

GOLDBOILER

Obviously this kid had more insight into how these managers opperated than any of us do, and to me it sounds like each kid knows what their job is and what they need to do. As I said in another thread, it's sad that an adult didn't specifically stop and tell him to get down, and it's sad that this kid was so young that he may have felt like he couldn't come down. As we all get older, we realize that no matter what, nothing is losing your life over, even a job.

If after the investigation it comes out that Kelly and/or Swarbrick told the kid to get in the tower, I'll be the first one in line saying that he should be fired.

Mace · Post by **Mace** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:15 pm

For the A.D. to even suggest that it was a sudden gust of wind is nothing short of a bald faced lie and a serious case of ass covering. All of which will be easy to prove when the time comes. The winds were howling in Iowa on that same day and Ferentz moved practice to the stadium so they could film from the press box. Easy and safe solution.

Go Coogs' · Post by **Go Coogs'** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:16 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Go Coogs' wrote:a temporary structure. In addition, the contractor who built the tower should have specs on hand for what the structure

Not much of a reader these days?

It was a scissorlift. JLG, Genie, those things. And a 50-foot scissor definitely isn't the most stable thing ever -- a boom or snorkel seems like a much better choice.

Gotcha. We shutdown any lift operations with gusts over 25 mph. That includes Genie's, cranes, and all other manlifts.

Go Coogs' · Post by **Go Coogs'** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:31 pm

Killian wrote:But you see these kids are so committed to their work. That is what makes them special; that is what made him special! It is tough to explain but my heart is broken. He was doing what he loved and paid the ultimate price.

I feel for you, Killian. I really do.

Bottom line...whether he went up there or not on his own judgement, he is not the one trained or certified to make that decision. Being a process operator and fully trained on safety and having multiple certifications/licenses to operate Genie manlifts, pickers, and scissor lifts, I do not have the authority to take a manlift up in abnormal weather conditions until my safety guy says its okay.

What Notre Dame (and all other schools that use such lifts) should implement from this point forward is a permit system to be authorized and signed off by a certified person who observes every possible risk involved. This sounds like a shitload of unnecessary red tape, but had it already been a part of the process, then Declan would still be part of the staff.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:56 pm

Killian wrote: Obviously this kid had more insight into how these managers opperated than any of us do, and to me it sounds like each kid knows what their job is and what they need to do.

100%. Absolute. Complete. Unadulterated. Horseshit.

Before a person can legally (in the civilized world, anyway) a piece of industrial equipment such as a lift, they must be properly trained in the use of said piece of equipment, and you're often required to sign your name swearing that you'll observe the safety rules.

CLEARLY not the case here.

ND not only was a miserable failure in their immediate duties to student/employee safety, this person was being taught to disobey the rules of the workplace environment that they'll one day hopefully be employed in.

MULTIPLE epic failures on ND's part -- no defending it, and the scoreboard says so.

Then that former student manager chimes in and completely supports the notion that there was no safety program in place whatsoever ("we all just knew what to do"), and the casual attitude towards safety and proper training on deadly equipment had been prevalent for at least several years.

As I said in another thread, it's sad that an adult didn't specifically stop and tell him to get down, and it's sad that this kid was so young that he may have felt like he couldn't come down.

Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to not be an idiot, he might not die in a lift.

What's sad is that people are actually excusing this GROSSLY negligent policy, or lack of policy, where it wasn't made clear that if you violate a lift/workplace safety rule, you're in deep shit. THAT's the way the professional world works -- not sure which world ND thinks they're preparing students for if this is their weird view of acceptable. Maybe if the poor kid had been held accountable for his actions in the past (or at least made an agreement to be), he wouldn't have suffered the ultimate in accountability.

If after the investigation it comes out that Kelly and/or Swarbrick told the kid to get in the tower, I'll be the first one in line saying that he should be fired.

If that's the case, he/they should be prosecuted. I have a hard time believing it went down like that. Just can't see it.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:59 pm

BTW -- not trying to be a callous dick.

2 nasty things happened in CFB in the last week or so. No one is supposed to get paralyzed or die.

Bums me out.

SoCalTrjn · Post by **SoCalTrjn** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:03 pm

If it turns out that ND really did practice for another 30 minutes after this kid died, Kelly needs to be fired.

Go Coogs' · Post by **Go Coogs'** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:07 pm

Dinsdale wrote:Before a person can legally (in the civilized world, anyway) a piece of industrial equipment such as a lift, they must be properly trained in the use of said piece of equipment, and you're often required to sign your name swearing that you'll observe the safety rules.

Word. This is standard practice in any plant. If not, then OSHA will surely shut you down and slap you with a HUGE fine. If a death occurs, then we're talkin' prosecution and neglegence as you had mentioned.

Mace · Post by **Mace** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:07 pm

A little common sense and adult supervision goes a long way in protecting students from this sort of tragedy. I understand that this kid was just doing his job and thought he was doing what was expected of him, but where was the adult telling him to not go up on the lift or to get down? It was a senseless loss of a young life that was totally preventable.

SoCalTrjn · Post by **SoCalTrjn** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:12 pm

this kid answered to the video coordinator who answers directly to Brian Kelly. The video coordinator should be held accountable and charged with the kids death, if it turns out that the coordinator spoke to Kelly about the winds and Kelly said that they just wanted a little more video, then charge Kelly in the kids death.

Hell, they just got buttfucked by Navy, was recording their own practice really going to help much?

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:08 am

Mace wrote:where was the adult telling him to not go up on the lift or to get down?

Should have happened before the first time he ever undid the safety chain on the lift.

Hopefully every AD is going through its safety procedures this week. One kid is wayyyyy too many.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:23 am

You have an ND org chart?

Who did the kicker answer to before he decided to jump off the cliff?

Shut the fuck up and go back o sniffing your kids jock strap.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:27 am

Mace wrote:A little common sense and adult supervision goes a long way in protecting students from this sort of tragedy.

This is pretty much what it boils down to. Kelly may not have specifically ordered the kid into the lift, but he could've ordered the practice indoors. Hellacious winds and all. That shit rocked through the Chicagoland area. It was bad. I heard on the radio that Tressel called for an indoor practice due to high winds - even citing the risk of the lift - one day before the ND student tragedy. Common sense.

SoCalTrjn · Post by **SoCalTrjn** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:59 am

If they had any common sense they wouldnt be at a catholic school

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:48 am

And if you had an common sense, you'd swallow a knife. Or maybe go the way of that stupid kicker.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:00 pm

Jesus (Touchdown and otherwise) ND -- SOMEONE FREAKING DIED...

Cover the spread, for Christ's sake.

Terry in Crapchester · Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:10 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Killian wrote: Obviously this kid had more insight into how these managers opperated than any of us do, and to me it sounds like each kid knows what their job is and what they need to do.
100%. Absolute. Complete. Unadulterated. Horseshit.

Before a person can legally (in the civilized world, anyway) a piece of industrial equipment such as a lift, they must be properly trained in the use of said piece of equipment, and you're often required to sign your name swearing that you'll observe the safety rules.

CLEARLY not the case here.

ND not only was a miserable failure in their immediate duties to student/employee safety, this person was being taught to disobey the rules of the workplace environment that they'll one day hopefully be employed in.

MULTIPLE epic failures on ND's part -- no defending it, and the scoreboard says so.

Then that former student manager chimes in and completely supports the notion that there was no safety program in place whatsoever ("we all just knew what to do"), and the casual attitude towards safety and proper training on deadly equipment had been prevalent for at least several years.

That's just it. The student managers are NOT employees of Notre Dame. They are volunteers.

I should know. I too used to be a student manager at ND.

No compensation, at least not at first. Those who stick it out AND make the cut get a tuition scholarship for their senior year (in my day, it was 100% tuition for head football manager, 75% tuition for two associate football managers and two basketball managers, and 65% tuition for everyone else -- each mens' varsity team had a head manager), but that's it.

I see what you're saying, to a point, but that's not the way it went down when I was a student. Based on my own experience, I definitely could see how something like this could go down. Of course, that was 100 years ago, so things might have changed just a little since. But maybe not.

If they haven't changed, they should, effective immediately.

And if Kelly and/or Swarbrick had such callous disregard for human life that they did what Whitlock is accusing them of doing, they should be fired. But at this point, it's all speculation.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:17 pm

Terry, I believe they did say that he was an employee of the university and this could fall under workers comp. He wasn't a student manager, but an employee of the ND video department.

Screw_Michigan · Post by **Screw_Michigan** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:21 pm

Brian Kelly should be fired, without a doubt. I find it absurd the head of the football program, who was running practice in 50 mph winds, didn't bother or was too ignorant or reckless to notice the kid up in the apple picker and go "What the fuck is he doing up there? Get him down now!"

But since he sucks dick as coach, at least that'll keep Killian melting for a few more years.

Go fuck yourself, you wanna be NW.

Screw_Michigan · Post by **Screw_Michigan** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:25 pm

Killian wrote:They've been a topic de jour for him since they fired Willingham and gave Weis a 5 year extention on top of his initial deal.

Go suck another cock. Just because Whitlock has been shitting on your wanna-be alma mater for years doesn't mean he's wrong when he says Swarbrick and Kelly should be canned. You making excuses for Kelly shows how pathetic you truly are.

Hopefully next year Devil's Night will swing by your crib.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:27 pm

How'd Western do against Notre Dame?

That's right, you don't really give a fuck about college football, you're an NFL fan.

How'd the Redskins do against the Lions?

I don't know if you could be a bigger loser if you tried.

Screw_Michigan · Post by **Screw_Michigan** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:30 pm

Killian wrote:If after the investigation it comes out that Kelly and/or Swarbrick told the kid to get in the tower, I'll be the first one in line saying that he should be fired.

As always, you hedge your bet without being man enough to have a take. It is not necessary for either Kelly or Swarbrick to have been "proven" telling the kid to get his ass up there. HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ENTIRE FOOTBALL PROGRAM. How fucking hard is that for you to understand? You rail against Whitlock, but at least he's calling for accountability. You're just trying to sweep shit under the rug and pretend nothing happened. You are beyond pathetic and are pitiable, a typical classless faggot.

Screw_Michigan · Post by **Screw_Michigan** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:31 pm

Sorry, dipshit. Stupid is supposed to hurt. Kelly fucked up big time and you're trying to cover his ass. If anything, blood is on YOUR hands, too.

Screw_Michigan · Post by **Screw_Michigan** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:32 pm

Killian wrote:How'd Western do against Notre Dame?

Right. I'm proud of my alma mater. You'd rather rim skin flutes for a shit football school. Go fuck yourself.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:47 pm

5 posts in 11 minutes and I'm the one melting?

If stupid is supposed to hurt, do you mainline vicodin? You're the biggest idiot on these fucking boards. You can't even fucking read. At what point do I defend Kelly? Hedging my bets? No, you fuckind moron it's called waiting for the facts to come out. I don't walk around making knee jerk reactions after a 20 year old kid dies. Blood is on my hands? I'm trying to cover his ass? You are world class stupid. Do you have to remind yourself to breath on a daily basis?

Why the fuck are you proud of your alma mater? You got a shit degree from a shit school that anyone can attend. Are you proud of all the doors that have opened for you for being a Bronco? Why the fuck would you be proud of what they gave you?

You are a worthless poster, Fredo. No one in this forum, or any forum take anything you say seriously. You're a fucking laughing stock of a poster, and if you really mean these things you type, you're a worthless human being. A kid dies and while adults are having a converstion about it, you take it as an opportunity to make a run at someone on a message board. Real classy.

Try harder.

WolverineSteve · Post by **WolverineSteve** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:56 pm

Dinsdale wrote:Cover the spread, for Christ's sake.

They would have 'cept he blew a knee.