T1B

Ty Willingham is also in the running, from what I've heard, as is (even stranger still) the New Mexico coach. Staying on topic of ND blasts from the past, Bob Davie also apparently is in the running for the Temple job.

Of more recent vintage, ND assistant head coach/secondary coach Chuck Martin apparently is in the running for the Northern Illinois job.

Definitely an interesting coaching carousel from ND fan's perspective, although I'm guessing Leach will wind up at Maryland, and Davie (who's been out of coaching altogether for nearly a decade) would have to be a longshot at best for the Temple job.

Bob Davie also apparently is in the running for the Temple job.

Would be a good hire for a school like Temple because they are trying to continue building the program. Davie is at a point where if he gets back into coaching, wherever he goes will probably be his last gig. So Temple need not worry about losing him to a bigger program. Plus, there's less pressure there than at Notre Dame and he should have some solid recruiting ties for a mid-major program.

I could see that working out well for both Temple and Bob Davie. Mark Jones as offensive coordinator???

TheJON wrote:

Bob Davie also apparently is in the running for the Temple job.

Would be a good hire for a school like Temple because they are trying to continue building the program. Davie is at a point where if he gets back into coaching, wherever he goes will probably be his last gig. So Temple need not worry about losing him to a bigger program. Plus, there's less pressure there than at Notre Dame and he should have some solid recruiting ties for a mid-major program.

I could see that working out well for both Temple and Bob Davie. Mark Jones as offensive coordinator???

The underlined part is where I see a potential problem. It would be one thing if Davie had only been out of coaching for a couple, three years or so. But he last coached in 2001. The current group of high school seniors were grade schoolers back then. They'll barely remember Davie as ND's head coach, and the recruiting ties he had may very well have vanished by now.

Terry in Crapchester wrote:It would be one thing if Davie had only been out of coaching for a couple, three years or so. But he last coached in 2001. The current group of high school seniors were grade schoolers back then. They'll barely remember Davie as ND's head coach

That's probably a positive, as they'll have no idea what a shitty coach he really was.

Terry in Crapchester wrote:

TheJON wrote:

Bob Davie also apparently is in the running for the Temple job.

Would be a good hire for a school like Temple because they are trying to continue building the program. Davie is at a point where if he gets back into coaching, wherever he goes will probably be his last gig. So Temple need not worry about losing him to a bigger program. Plus, there's less pressure there than at Notre Dame and he should have some solid recruiting ties for a mid-major program.

I could see that working out well for both Temple and Bob Davie. Mark Jones as offensive coordinator???

The underlined part is where I see a potential problem. It would be one thing if Davie had only been out of coaching for a couple, three years or so. But he last coached in 2001. The current group of high school seniors were grade schoolers back then. They'll barely remember Davie as ND's head coach, and the recruiting ties he had may very well have vanished by now.

That's a good point, but he can still walk into the house of a recruit and say "I was the head coach at Notre Dame". He doesn't have to finish that up with "and I failed miserably". The players he would be recruiting at a school like Temple might be overjoyed to play for someone that once was a head coach at Notre Dame.

Papa Willie wrote:

Terry in Crapchester wrote:Ty Willingham is also in the running,

Whoingham?

On July 18, 2010, at the age of 56, Tyrone Willingham announced he was retired from coaching.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrone_Willingham

He sucked so bad, he knew he had to quit! Seriously - that guy doesn't EVEN need to try it again. One of the worst coaches - ever...

Bad as Willingham was, consider this: one of his competitors for this yob has a 2-22 lifetime record. At New Mexico.

It's one thing to get shitstomped regularly by the USC's of the college football world. It's quite another to get the same treatment, regularly, from the Colorado States, Wyomings and UNLV's of the college football world.

Not that Maryland is an elite program, but it is a BCS-level program that at least is capable of competing for a bowl bid on an annual basis. One would think that they would've been able to compile a more attractive coaching search list than this. If this is the best they can do for alternatives to Leach, they'd best get Leach signed, pronto.

Papa Willie wrote:http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5933528

Friend of mine said he'd heard that Leach is big buddies with some big Terp backer and that it's as good as done.

Didn't see that coming...

I believe the big Terb backer is the dude who created Under Armor.

^^^ That is correct.

Terry in Crapchester wrote:Ty Willingham is also in the running, from what I've heard, as is (even stranger still) the New Mexico coach.

Steve Alford switching over to football?

Ty at NM seems like a terrible fit. someplace like William and Mary or Lehigh sounds better than Ty in the southwest. Hard to picture Ty cozying up with the boosters over a big plate of tacos al pastor and Coronas.

Terry in Crapchester wrote:Bad as Willingham was, consider this: one of his competitors for this yob has a 2-22 lifetime record. At New Mexico.

Resume is only part of the hiring formula. Look at Gene Chizik. He sucked balls at Iowa State yet Auburn hired him and we all collectively went "WTF?!?!" Yet, here he is in year one cheating his way to a national championship.

Year Two, fukknuckle.

TheJON wrote: That's a good point, but he can still walk into the house of a recruit and say "I was the head coach at Notre Dame". He doesn't have to finish that up with "and I failed miserably". The players he would be recruiting at a school like Temple might be overjoyed to play for someone that once was a head coach at Notre Dame.

sin,

20 years ago

smackaholic wrote:

TheJON wrote: That's a good point, but he can still walk into the house of a recruit and say "I was the head coach at Notre Dame". He doesn't have to finish that up with "and I failed miserably". The players he would be recruiting at a school like Temple might be overjoyed to play for someone that once was a head coach at Notre Dame.

sin,

20 years ago

No, Notre Dame is still considered a big time program. Just ask the media.

King Crimson wrote:Ty at NM seems like a terrible fit. someplace like William and Mary or Lehigh sounds better than Ty in the southwest. Hard to picture Ty cozying up with the boosters over a big plate of tacos al pastor and Coronas.

Sorry if I was unclear. What I was saying is that Ty is an alternate candidate for the Maryland job, as is New Mexico's coach (that's Mike Locksley, not Steve Alford).

TheJON wrote:No, Notre Dame is still considered a big time program. Just ask the media.

Define "big time." I mean, they were 3 plays from a BCS game.

Killian wrote:

TheJON wrote:No, Notre Dame is still considered a big time program. Just ask the media.

Define "big time." I mean, they were 3 plays from a BCS game.

But Iowa was only 895 plays away from the national championship. Therefore, Iowa > Notre Dame.

But Iowa was only 895 plays away from the national championship. Therefore, Iowa > Notre Dame.

5 or 895. The numbers are pretty much the same, right?

Iowa has outperformed Notre Dame for quite a while now.

Iowa is 84-40 over the last decade with 4 Top 10 finishes and a BCS bowl victory
Notre Dame is 67-55 over the last decade with 0 Top 10 finishes and no BCS bowl wins

Not even close. Going even deeper into that......

of Notre Dame's 55 losses in the past decade, 29 of them have been by double digits (ouch).
of Iowa's 40 losses, only 14 have come by double digits.

How's about Bowl records?

Iowa 5-3 (pending the 2010 Insight Bowl)
Notre Dame 1-4 (pending 2010 Sun Bowl)

Iowa has as many bowl WINS over the last decade as Notre Dame has bowl APPEARANCES!

But I guess a decade isn't a long enough period of time for most people. You have to factor at least 85,000 years, right?

Poll 100 random CFB fans that are not Iowa or ND fans and ask them who has the better program. I would venture to guess at least 95 would say Notre Dame. We could outperform the Irish every season for the next decade and we still wouldn't be considered on their level. And CFB fans wonder why everyone else laughs at their sport........

But they'll always be down, right? Just like Alabama?

Alabama doesn't have touchy academic standards preventing them from bringing in top recruits. Or glaring incompetence at the top.

Killian wrote:But they'll always be down, right? Just like Alabama?

I never said they would. Eventually every BCS program will have a period of success. I'm just saying at this point in time, how can people claim Notre Dame has a better program than Iowa? Why is an entire decade not long enough of a time period for judging programs?

The difference between Iowa and Notre Dame over the past decade is quite large. Notre Dame has been just kinda average or slightly above for a long time- beyond a decade even. Only twice since 1993 have they won 10 games, and not once since then have they won more than 10 games.

While Alabama did go through a tough stretch, it wasn't even close to as bad as Notre Dame has gone through since 1993. They did have 5 seasons of 10+ wins between 1994 and when Saban took over. So it's not like they were almost always mediocre. Plus, they have some recruiting advantages over Notre Dame with their academic standards and proximity to a lot of the top HS talent in the country.

There's similarities between the programs, I will say that. But just because Alabama got back to their old form doesn't necessarily mean Notre Dame will. While you can use them as an example to show that programs like Notre Dame can get their swagger back, it's not proof that they will. With the money and past tradition that Notre Dame has, you would think eventually they will become good again. But their on-field performance over quite a long period of time makes them anything but a great program right now.

Screw_Michigan wrote:Alabama doesn't have touchy academic standards preventing them from bringing in top recruits.

Neither does Notre Dame. That's a weak crutch ignorant ND fans have been using for a long time. There aren't that many kids out there that Alabama can recruit that ND can't.

Screw_Michigan wrote:Or glaring incompetence at the top.

That is a distinct possibility.

What is the difference in academic requirements at Notre Dame for a football player as compared to a regular student?

No one has said that ND is a better program than Iowa.

And you never said who wouldn't stay down, 'Bama or Notre Dame?

No one has said that ND is a better program than Iowa.

Like I said, I would guarantee if you polled random CFB fans, 90% or more would say Notre Dame is a better program than Iowa. Or if you asked the alleged CFB expert analysts and media personalities.

And you never said who wouldn't stay down, 'Bama or Notre Dame?

What do you mean? I don't think Notre Dame will stay down forever. Nobody does. Eventually almost every program will go through periods of success. Notre Dame might win 10 more national titles in our lifetime. That's irrelevant right now. North Texas might do the same thing. Times change. Impossible to predict the future. What I do know is Notre Dame has a mediocre program right now and until they start winning again, I will continue to feel that way.

TheJON wrote:What is the difference in academic requirements at Notre Dame for a football player as compared to a regular student?

Football player has to be eligible by NCAA standards (very roughly = 2.5 gpa, 17 core courses and a 18 on the ACT). For a regular student, my guess would be a 4.0 or higher and a 34 on the ACT, along with numerous leadership positions within programs like the NHS, Studen Council, plus play a varsity sport and do charitible work in the community.

TheJON wrote:

No one has said that ND is a better program than Iowa.

Like I said, I would guarantee if you polled random CFB fans, 90% or more would say Notre Dame is a better program than Iowa. Or if you asked the alleged CFB expert analysts and media personalities.

Before the advent of the internet, perhaps you are right. Since then? Not a chance. Most people realize that Iowa has been better for a decade plus than Notre Dame. This board is a pretty good cross section of college football fans and there isn't a single person on this board that would say that Notre Dame is better than Iowa over the past 10 years. When you limit the argument to the simple question of "who is the better 'program'", than yeah, most everyone would say Notre Dame because historically, it's not close.

[quote="TheJon"

And you never said who wouldn't stay down, 'Bama or Notre Dame?

What do you mean? I don't think Notre Dame will stay down forever. Nobody does. Eventually almost every program will go through periods of success. Notre Dame might win 10 more national titles in our lifetime. That's irrelevant right now. North Texas might do the same thing. Times change. Impossible to predict the future. What I do know is Notre Dame has a mediocre program right now and until they start winning again, I will continue to feel that way.[/quote]

I was asking because you most certainly referred to Alabama as a "dead program" and that they were "done."

Football player has to be eligible by NCAA standards (very roughly = 2.5 gpa, 17 core courses and a 18 on the ACT)

If that's true, why do so many people in the media mention their strict academic standards? 2.5 GPA and an 18 ACT score means you only need to be slightly above retarded. It's damn near impossible to get grades that low in high school. Shit, I even tried to my last semester because I had all my credits and had been accepted to college. I didn't show up half the time, didn't do much homework, and I still got a higher GPA than that. And an 18 ACT score? Come on, that requires no effort or studying whatsoever to get that score. Just show up on test day and you will get an 18.

How can the Notre Dame administration allow such a disparity in terms of being admitted to school between football players and regular students? I can't imagine many professors like having guys with 2.5 high school GPA's mixed in with some of the smarter, hard working young minds.

If that is true, I would argue that the NCAA should allow football programs to be completely separate from the university. Really, what's the point of a kid with a 2.5 high school GPA attending classes at Notre Dame? His odds of graduating or even getting anything out of that education is maybe 1 in 100. They should still have a free scholarship available if they actually do want to get their degree, but if they're more focused on football and other things, they should be given some other benefit instead. I know it doesn't really send the right message, but again..........if you have a 2.5 HS GPA, you aren't graduating from Notre Dame 99% of the time.

Do you remember college? Getting in was the hard part, actual college classes were easy. Anyone can schedule themselves a 3.0 or higher. There are enough puff courses at any school to couple with the difficult ones to keep you above a B average. Add in the tutors that all athletes get, the mandatory study hall, and all of those kids have an advantage over the regular kid with no tutors or mandatory study hall.

Why does the media make a big deal about ND academics? Because they are very lazy. It’s the same thing with Duke basketball, those kids are barely NCAA eligible, but Coach K gets lauded for doing things the “right way.” It’s a joke.

And I don’t think you could be farther from the truth about those kids and them “graduating or even getting anything out of that education” being “maybe 1 in 100.” ND is always in the top 5 when it comes to graduation rates and the stories of what the football players do with their degrees once they are using them in real life are too numerous to mention on this board.

Your hyperbole wears really thin, very fast around here.

Killian wrote:No one has said that ND is a better program than Iowa.

No, theJON said that......just so he could post a bunch of stats to disprove that claim.

theJON wrote:Poll 100 random CFB fans that are not Iowa or ND fans and ask them who has the better program. I would venture to guess at least 95 would say Notre Dame. We could outperform the Irish every season for the next decade and we still wouldn't be considered on their level. And CFB fans wonder why everyone else laughs at their sport........

He started out claiming 95% of CFB fans would make that claim, but I see he's already dropped that down to 90% in a later post. :roll:

Bottom line is that no college football fan would make such a claim...and neither does anyone in the media. They might like for Notre Dame to once again become a national power, but no one is saying that they are.

Do you have a link to back up those admission standards for football players? I ask that because I Googled for info on ND's football player admission requirements and of the 8 or 9 links I checked out, none of them suggest that is the case. If you go to ND message boards, every one of the fans would also suggest that their standards are MUCH lower than other BCS schools. Unless pretty much every other ND fan and media member are wrong, I find it difficult to believe an easy 2.5 GPA with an 18 ACT score would get a football player into ND.

Plain and simple.......there is a correlation between high school grades and SAT/ACT scores and college success/failures. If there wasn't, schools would admit anyone. Why have admission requirements if your high school grades/scores weren't an indication on your likelihood of succeeding in college? That's exactly why they do have standards. The schools with the toughest admission requirements are the ones with the highest graduation rates.

Of course there's always the exception to the rule, but I'm sure if you pulled out your HS yearbook you would notice something I noticed from my class..........the ones that did well in HS typically did well in college. The ones that screwed around in HS, failed miserably in college or didn't even attend college.

As for taking easy courses.........this is kinda my point here, Killian, when I said that we might as well just start separating school from football program. First off, you can't get a degree by taking 100% cream puff courses. Eventually you have to stop dancing around taking the easy courses and sign up for a few tough ones if you want to graduate- regardless of your major. And if all you are doing is taking bowling, underwater basket weaving, and "rocks for jocks" (intro to geology at Iowa, which was a Psychology substitute the athletes were known to take) just to stay eligible or maintain a decent GPA, what life lessons and knowledge will you take from that? About all I can think of is you will learn how to become a badass bowler and take the easy way out. I don't think this is as common of a strategy at Notre Dame as it is at most BCS schools, because I think the average Notre Dame football player is more committed in the classroom than the average college football player. But I do think it's a complete waste of money to fund the scholarship for an athlete that has no real desire to get anything out of their college education. Plus, other than the name.......what the heck does a football program have to do with a university? They're essentially 2 completely different entities anyways. So why not just separate them? If an athlete wants to go to class, give him the academic scholarship. If not, give them something else that will do them some good.

As for the alleged hyperbole you claim.......

I was being mildly sarcastic, however, I doubt I'm off by all that much.

About 50% of those that enter a 4-year private school end up graduating
About 33% of those that enter a 4-year public school end up graduating

That includes EVERYONE- smart kids, dumb kids, in-between kids, lazy kids, hardworking kids. So what do you think the percentage of students with a 2.5 high school GPA and 18 ACT score end up with a 4-year degree? 10%?? 5%??? This isn't hyperbole.......I can't imagine the graduation rate for those students is much higher than that.

High school was easy. Yeah, we all know college ended up being much less difficult than we expected, but it still was a shitload harder than high school. There were a shit ton of substitute classes we could have taken in high school that required no intelligence or effort whatsoever to take. Dodged a 2nd semester of World History my junior year because it was boring in favor of a class called "Current Affairs". What did we do in Current Affairs? Cut out articles in the newspaper and wrote a short paragraph about them. That's it. You know of any college courses easier than that???

Intro to Interior Design at MSU. Literally had the same test questions for 5 years straight. 2 tests, 50 questions on each. Went to just take the tests.

As for the admin standards, there is no hard and fast link. But see if you can find Robert Hughes and Armando Allen's HS grades. Hughes was a 2.8 and a 19 I think.

Killian wrote:

Screw_Michigan wrote:Alabama doesn't have touchy academic standards preventing them from bringing in top recruits.

Neither does Notre Dame. That's a weak crutch ignorant ND fans have been using for a long time. There aren't that many kids out there that Alabama can recruit that ND can't.

Agree in part, disagree in part. As you mentioned, "there aren't that many kids out there" that Alabama can recruit that ND can't. But there are a few. And given that no school is ever going to get every recruit they want, at a minimum this means less margin for error for ND's coaching staff when it comes both to recruiting and to evaluating high school talent in the first place.

I do think that the bigger difference between ND and other schools when it comes to academics occurs after the kids get to school. As you stated elsewhere, ND is always at or near the top when it comes to graduation rate. That's not a coincidence. What's more, ND may be counting its graduation rate more strictly than other schools do (players who transfer or leave early for the NFL are counted against ND's graduation rate, I'm not sure if other schools do the same). At ND, players are expected to attend class (more on that later) and graduate. A kid who views college as little more than a waystation to get paid and get laid while he awaits his chance in the NFL won't be a good fit at ND.

There's also the standard for getting a fifth year at ND. In order to get a fifth year, in addition to meeting NCAA requirements for eligibility for a fifth year, a player at ND must graduate from ND in four years and get accepted into one of ND's graduate schools (admittedly, that latter requirement is pretty easy for a player who meets the former requirement). As Tom Hammond mentioned about 100,000 times this year, Chris Stewart is actually a first year law student at ND's law school. I don't know of any other BTPCF school that requires a player to graduate in four years before getting a fifth year.

As for recruiting differences between ND and Alabama, I think the biggest difference may be Alabama's habit of overrecruiting. In 2008, they actually made 32 scholarship offers, even though the NCAA limits a school to 25 per year. Apparently, Alabama has pulled scholarship offers from recruits, or pulled scholarships from upperclassmen who weren't playing up to expectations.

Killian wrote:

TheJON wrote:What is the difference in academic requirements at Notre Dame for a football player as compared to a regular student?

Football player has to be eligible by NCAA standards (very roughly = 2.5 gpa, 17 core courses and a 18 on the ACT). For a regular student, my guess would be a 4.0 or higher and a 34 on the ACT, along with numerous leadership positions within programs like the NHS, Studen Council, plus play a varsity sport and do charitible work in the community.

I believe ND's standards may be slightly above the NCAA minimum for football players. I've heard that players like Tony Rice, Chris Zorich and Rocket Ismail would not be able to get into ND today. Then again, Rice was a Prop 48 back in the day, so by definition, he failed to meet NCAA standards.

As for your take on non-athletes, I'm guessing you're pretty close to correct, except for the following:

- A student who was relatively weak in one or more of the areas you mentioned probably could make up for it by being particularly strong in other areas.
- Certain categories of students who get special consideration (e.g., legacies, minority students, possibly foreign students) probably don't need to compile quite as impressive a record, but they still need a pretty impressive record.
- Given that ND still admits more male students than female students (although the disparity isn't quite as significant as it was in my day), I would think that a female student probably needs to compile a slightly more impressive resume than her male counterpart.

Fwiw, I've read that ND is one of the ten most selective schools in the country, in terms of % of applicants admitted. If memory serves, eight people from my high school graduating class applied to ND. Two got in. The 25% acceptance rate was relatively high. Some of the ones who didn't get in to ND still went to impressive schools in their own right: one got an appointment to the Naval Academy, one went to Colgate, one went to BC, and one went to Syracuse.

Killian wrote:Intro to Interior Design at MSU. Literally had the same test questions for 5 years straight. 2 tests, 50 questions on each. Went to just take the tests.

I've heard similar stories from other people who went to other schools. At ND, though, that simply wouldn't have been an option.

ND had a policy that any professor could fail a student who had more than three unexcused absences from his class. There were only three categories of excused absences: documented illness (i.e., if you were sick, you had to check in at the Infirmary); necessary trip home (i.e., for a death in one's immediate family); and travel off-campus on official university business (I was in NROTC at ND, so a few times I had to go to Great Lakes Naval Base. Those were excused absences, as would be an absence based on a road game for a student-athlete.)

Of course, it was up to the discretion of the individual professors as to whether to enforce this policy, but you'd be surprised at the number who did. But simply showing up to class on the first day, to get the course syllabus, and on the last day, for the final examination, wasn't an option. And yeah, I graduated from ND about 100 years ago, but I don't think things have changed that much since I graduated, at least not on that point.

I don't know about ND's admission policies but I do know about a few other schools considered to have higher academic standards. I knew an athlete in the 80's who was recruited for football by Iowa, Stanford, Dartmouth, Northwestern, and Iowa State...to name a few of the schools offering scholarships....who had a 3.9 GPA and an ACT score in the 30's...who was offered by Stanford for football but, after commiting to Iowa, received a rejection letter from Stanford saying that he did not meet their entrance requirements. He would have been accepted if he took the football scholarship, but didn't meet the requirements as a "regular student". I suspect that Notre Dame, Northwestern, and Dartmouth would have been the same.

I'm sure I've told the story about one of my old buddies who attended Oregon State in the late 80's...

in some big auditorium class, he sat next to this little Asian girl who went by the name Gary Payton.

Mace wrote:I don't know about ND's admission policies but I do know about a few other schools considered to have higher academic standards. I knew an athlete in the 80's who was recruited for football by Iowa, Stanford, Dartmouth, Northwestern, and Iowa State...to name a few of the schools offering scholarships....who had a 3.9 GPA and an ACT score in the 30's...who was offered by Stanford for football but, after commiting to Iowa, received a rejection letter from Stanford saying that he did not meet their entrance requirements. He would have been accepted if he took the football scholarship, but didn't meet the requirements as a "regular student". I suspect that Notre Dame, Northwestern, and Dartmouth would have been the same.

ND and Northwestern? Yeah, I'd guess so.
Dartmouth? Not so sure how that operates. Not being a Division 1-A school, technically they aren't allowed to give out football scholarships. But yeah, it's probably a little easier to get admitted to Dartmouth if you're a football player.

Terry in Crapchester wrote:Dartmouth? Not so sure how that operates. Not being a Division 1-A school, technically they aren't allowed to give out football scholarships.

They're 1-AA and yes, they are allowed to hand out football scholarships to the tune of 83 per year.

Terry in Crapchester wrote:

Mace wrote:I don't know about ND's admission policies but I do know about a few other schools considered to have higher academic standards. I knew an athlete in the 80's who was recruited for football by Iowa, Stanford, Dartmouth, Northwestern, and Iowa State...to name a few of the schools offering scholarships....who had a 3.9 GPA and an ACT score in the 30's...who was offered by Stanford for football but, after commiting to Iowa, received a rejection letter from Stanford saying that he did not meet their entrance requirements. He would have been accepted if he took the football scholarship, but didn't meet the requirements as a "regular student". I suspect that Notre Dame, Northwestern, and Dartmouth would have been the same.

ND and Northwestern? Yeah, I'd guess so.
Dartmouth? Not so sure how that operates. Not being a Division 1-A school, technically they aren't allowed to give out football scholarships. But yeah, it's probably a little easier to get admitted to Dartmouth if you're a football player.

What do you mean non-D1A schools can't hand out scholarships? I had a baseball scholarship offer to an NAIA school (well, a partial scholarship).

Dinsdale wrote:I'm sure I've told the story about one of my old buddies who attended Oregon State in the late 80's...

in some big auditorium class, he sat next to this little Asian girl who went by the name Gary Payton.

Hahahaha! Payton always struck me as a complete moron, so I'm not surprised by this.