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ND joining the Big10 now even more remote
Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:47 pm
by Killian
The last two times this was brought up (1999 and 2010) ND faculty were unanimous in thier support for Big 10 membership because of the inclusion into the AAU. Whoops.
Research universities group ends UNL's membership
By KEVIN ABOUREZK / Lincoln Journal Star | Posted: Friday, April 29, 2011 7:25 pm
The University of Nebraska-Lincoln, after 102 years' membership in the Association of American Universities, has been given the boot by the association of 63 top research universities.
The AAU members voted this month to end UNL's membership based on its inability to meet certain requirements, Chancellor Harvey Perlman said in an email to faculty and staff Friday.
"I think it's unfortunate after 102 years of membership that our membership is discontinued," said University of Nebraska President James B. Milliken.
Perlman said he was notified Tuesday that a two-thirds majority of the group's members had voted to end UNL's membership. The AAU's other members began voting on UNL's membership on April 11, he said.
"We have known we were at risk of this for 10 years and successfully fought off a similar threat in 2000," he said. "I had hoped our extraordinary accomplishments and steep trajectory would have made us less vulnerable, but the AAU's approach to the review made this result inevitable."
Perlman said this marks the first time in the AAU's 111-year history that it has ended an institution's membership, although the organization has succeeded in encouraging some members to withdraw. He said there is no way for UNL to appeal the AAU's decision.
UNL has been listed at the bottom of the organization's members for more than a decade, based on criteria that rank all research universities, Perlman said. Rank is based on research expenditures, the number of faculty belonging to the National Academies of sciences and engineering and the Institute of Medicine, specified faculty awards and citations.
Membership criteria are weighted based on the number of tenure-track faculty. Based on that measurement, a number of non-AAU institutions ranked higher than 15 AAU institutions, including UNL, Perlman said.
He said the AAU's four criteria were unfair disadvantages for UNL because the NU system is organized with separate flagship (UNL) and medical campuses (the University of Nebraska Medical Center). Most AAU institutions have medical schools, which tend to get large amounts of research dollars, Perlman said.
"With UNMC's research included, we would have had research expenditures above many other AAU institutions," he said.
A study conducted last year by The Chronicle of Higher Education showed Nebraska's system as a whole outpaces those of at least 11 AAU members.
Another disadvantage UNL faced, Perlman said, was the AAU policy of not allowing member universities to include research funded by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, a major source of funding for UNL. However, the association does count agricultural faculty when weighting rankings, Perlman said.
"Because of our strong commitment as a land-grant institution to serving the state of Nebraska, we are seriously disadvantaged within the AAU ranking system," Perlman said in his email.
He said AAU membership policies also provide consideration for an institution's trajectory, something Perlman believed should have convinced the group's members to allow UNL to remain. Among AAU institutions, UNL has the seventh-largest percentage growth in research expenditures in the past decade, he said. In addition, the university is a leader and partner in research with all of the highest-ranked AAU institutions, he said.
In an interview Friday, Perlman said he didn't think the AAU's decision would affect the university's efforts to attract research dollars or top faculty. He said it also likely wouldn't affect UNL's entry into the Big Ten Conference, a transition that officially takes place July 1.
However, Perlman acknowledged that the university's membership in the AAU was likely a factor in the Big Ten's decision to invite UNL to join last year.
"I would assume it might have been (a factor) just because they're all AAU institutions," he said.
The Big Ten is the only Division I conference that has all of its members affiliated with the AAU. Considering AAU universities receive about 57 percent of all federally funded research provided to universities annually, the Big Ten has become known as a home for the best research universities in the country.
By comparison, the Big 12 has seven AAU members.
When the Big Ten's academic arm, the Committee on Institutional Cooperation, approved UNL's entry last summer, committee Chairman Rodney Erickson recognized UNL's membership in the AAU.
Perlman said most of the 11 other Big Ten universities supported UNL's efforts to remain in the AAU, as did all of the Big 12 universities in the AAU.
"I honestly don't think it's going to change anything," he said. "I suppose it will be, in the short-term, an embarrassment."
Prem Paul, UNL vice chancellor for research and economic development, said he doesn't believe the AAU's decision will affect the university's efforts to build Innovation Campus, a public and private research campus that will occupy the former State Fair Park.
"Frankly, the country needs the type of research we're doing," he said. "The state needs the research we're doing. We're doing big things."
He said he also doesn't believe the AAU decision will affect efforts to win research grants, because those grants don't take into account whether an applicant is an AAU university. Grant applications focus more on the quality of an idea and how supportive a university is toward research as well as the quality of that institution's faculty, Paul said.
"We have faculty members that compete every day amongst the very best in the country and will continue to do that," he said. "I'm very proud of my faculty colleagues."
Re: ND joining the Big10 now even more remote
Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:14 pm
by Terry in Crapchester
The Big 10 alone couldn't get ND into the AAU in any event -- or keep them out, for that matter.
From the article, Nebraska apparently was voted out of the AAU by a two-thirds vote of its members. That would require 42 votes from among 62 members. The Big 10 only has 11 members to vote against it, they would've needed at least 10 more no votes from among the remaining members. They didn't get them.
Meanwhile, were ND to apply for AAU membership, ND would need a 75% vote to get in. That would require 47 of 62 yes votes. So again, the Big 10, by itself, couldn't keep ND out of the AAU, although by voting collectively against ND, they could eliminate most of ND's margin for error, of course.
I see why ND's faculty wants AAU membership, but I don't think that AAU membership is the be-all, end-all when it comes to academic reputation. Last I checked, Dartmouth and Georgetown were two pretty good academic institutions. Neither one is an AAU member.
http://www.aau.edu/about/article.aspx?id=5476
Meanwhile, as to the topic of ND and the Big Ten, there is
this to consider, from, among all things, a Nebraska fan. I saw this a few days ago, didn't post initially because I didn't want to be accused of poking the Big Ten's eye with my finger, but since we're sorta on the topic, . . .
While the article obviously got a few details wrong (e.g., ND doesn't play Army every year, nor is ND's fanbase entirely Catholic), the basic premise is correct. Interesting that Husker Fan has been in the B1G just long enough to grab a cup of coffee, but still gets it in a way the rest of the conference apparently does not.
Re: ND joining the Big10 now even more remote
Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 2:42 pm
by King Crimson
even though this appears to have been a long process and i'm sure NU's ag commitment is a disadvantage....i suspect despite the public talk there are some NU administrators for whom job security is now on the table in a more active way than before. though, re: the Big Ten i suspect it's water under the bridge. there was talk around Boulder that Utah not being an AAU school was causing some Pac hedging....but, as it turns out not so much an issue. However, Pac is pretty top heavy in the prestige department with a slew of non AAU schools as well.
don't recall posting it here as much, but the imagined connection and academic benefits to athletic conference inclusion seemed to be vastly overstated during the movements (and potential movements) of last spring. i've never once heard an academic in ten + years on CU's campus mention any cooperative efforts or resource sharing based on sports affiliation. it's nice for alums and stuff, but while these consortium-type things do exist....they are minor aspects of a researchers actual academic production. i think it's more an administration frosting where maybe they get a sports-friendly prof to display at alumni stuff for big road games and such.
and as Terry points out, while AAU membership is prestigious....it's more a set of criteria than a university-wide ranking or orthodoxy.
Re: ND joining the Big10 now even more remote
Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 2:49 am
by H4ever
First off....rack KCrimson. I couldn't agree more. Now, as fellow Texass haters...The timing of this sounded odd and now I think we have explanation : "The AAU’s membership review committee — headed by Larry R. Faulkner, president emeritus of the University of Texas at Austin." So we left the Big 12 last year, almost destroying the "Texas league" - and now a month before joining the Big Ten Nebraska gets booted from an AAU committe headed by a Texas president? This is nothing more than a parting shot perhaps?
But, to be fair, Texas and the other Big 12 members of the AAU did vote in Nebraska's favor (despite the review committee chair being a Texan.) This probably isn't altruism, though. I've read a theory that "elite" schools of the AAU like Berkley, Harvard, etc. are leading a push to purge the AAU of lower-ranking public land-grant schools. They foresee an extended period of reduced research money available, and kicking-out the "slow children" of their group will raise the reputation of the AAU and preserve funding for those schools still remaining.
The Big-12 would have several schools on the bubble for expulsion in such a scenario, so it's in their interest for Nebraska to keep its membership. Iowa State, Missouri, etc. have similar research profiles to NU and could be on the chopping-block next if Nebraska is just the first of several schools to get the axe. Nebraska was probably the first to "get it" because we had to fight back in 2000 to keep our membership. It was probably easier to rally votes against us because of that. Now that the precedent has been set, schools ranked toward the bottom like Iowa State, Missouri, Kansas, etc. are at risk of seeing the same treatment. That might explain why the Big-12 was united in voting in Nebraska's favor. The B12 would be disproportionally punished in any future purge since many of those schools share a similar profile to Nebraska.
It still smells to high-heaven, and damnit I want to blame Tejas, but I think the politics involved have more to do with academic elitism vs. "poor" public institutions rather than Big-12 football rivalries. So...FUCK THE IVY LEAGUE! I bet Nebraska couldn't beat Yale on the gridiron right now due to expected shit calls sourced in an AAU conspiracy against the Huskers! Those blatant, shit-calls in College Station would pale in comparison!
Re: ND joining the Big10 now even more remote
Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 2:24 pm
by Terry in Crapchester
King Crimson wrote:even though this appears to have been a long process and i'm sure NU's ag commitment is a disadvantage....i suspect despite the public talk there are some NU administrators for whom job security is now on the table in a more active way than before. though, re: the Big Ten i suspect it's water under the bridge.
Not to speak for Killian, but I don't think it was his intention to suggest that Nebraska's Big 10 membership is now in jeopardy. And it certainly wasn't mine. Rather, it was brought up within the context of ND and the Big Ten. With respect to internal discussions among the ND community as to the possibility of Big Ten membership, the proponents of same often bring up AAU membership as a reason to consider membership in the Big Ten. The Big Ten's failure to ensure Nebraska's continued AAU membership, however, damages the credibility of that argument severely.
Parenthetically, I should note that there are some members of ND's community who are opposed to AAU membership in and of itself. I disagree with that. I want ND to be the best university it can be in every way imaginable, and I see AAU membership as beneficial to that end. Yes, the absence of any Catholic universities in the AAU is a little cause for concern, but as I have mentioned before, and as was alluded to in the link I posted, ND has developed a sort of unofficial status as the National Catholic University. As such, ND should assume a position of leadership in this regard. Joining the AAU helps us do that.
there was talk around Boulder that Utah not being an AAU school was causing some Pac hedging....but, as it turns out not so much an issue. However, Pac is pretty top heavy in the prestige department with a slew of non AAU schools as well.
I think it was a bigger issue for the Big Ten than the Pac, given that every Big Ten member was a member of the AAU, and the Pac already had three members (Arizona State, Oregon State, Washington State) that were not AAU members.
A good example in that regard is West Virginia. West Virginia has a lot to recommend itself to the Big Ten. It has a decent location for the Big Ten (outside the conference's existing footprint, but close enough to that footprint to make sense as an expansion member); excellent overall athletics (better overall than Nebraska, in fact, although it lacks the tradition of football success that Nebraska has); and a rabid statewide fanbase, albeit one in a state with a small population (although West Virginia's population is comparable to Nebraska's). But because of academics, West Virginia was never going to merit a serious look from the Big Ten.
don't recall posting it here as much, but the imagined connection and academic benefits to athletic conference inclusion seemed to be vastly overstated during the movements (and potential movements) of last spring. i've never once heard an academic in ten + years on CU's campus mention any cooperative efforts or resource sharing based on sports affiliation. it's nice for alums and stuff, but while these consortium-type things do exist....they are minor aspects of a researchers actual academic production. i think it's more an administration frosting where maybe they get a sports-friendly prof to display at alumni stuff for big road games and such.
It works the other way around for ND as well. Maybe this is asking a bit much, but I personally would prefer if academic and athletic considerations remained separate. As to ND, whether ND joins a conference should be strictly an athletic consideration which should have no impact on academics. And on the other side of the coin, joining the AAU should be strictly an academic concern which should have no impact upon athletics.
The Big Ten's concern about academics as to its members is commendable. However, when it comes to the Big Ten's dealings with ND, maybe I'm reading something wrong, but it sure seems to me that the Big Ten is blurring the lines in a way that should be frowned upon. It seems to me that the Big Ten essentially is saying to ND, "If you join us, we'll do everything we can to help you get in the AAU. But if you don't join us, we'll do everything we can to keep you out of the AAU."
Re: ND joining the Big10 now even more remote
Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 2:50 pm
by Goober McTuber
Golden Domer penis envy never gets old, does it?
Re: ND joining the Big10 now even more remote
Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:34 pm
by King Crimson
Terry in Crapchester wrote:King Crimson wrote:even though this appears to have been a long process and i'm sure NU's ag commitment is a disadvantage....i suspect despite the public talk there are some NU administrators for whom job security is now on the table in a more active way than before. though, re: the Big Ten i suspect it's water under the bridge.
Not to speak for Killian, but I don't think it was his intention to suggest that Nebraska's Big 10 membership is now in jeopardy. And it certainly wasn't mine. Rather, it was brought up within the context of ND and the Big Ten.
my point was merely the autonomy of sports conference affiliation from almost any set of academic requirements, rankings, important consortiums, or research programs you can imagine. and, that while that was an issue in MU and NU jockeying a bit for Big 10 membership and was, as i mentioned, an issue a bit with Utah in the Pac....(where you've broken my text in quotes eliminates the association between the two examples from a year ago that i was making....not maliciously on your part, but breaks the cogency imo). in the end, not a deal-breaker either way. i do think it's reasonable to speculate that if NU's move to the Big Ten and being dropped from the AAU were to happen in reverse order....who knows? NU, the noob, is NOW the only non-AAU member. but, like i say, AAU membership is a lot like a restaurant with an awarded wine list. it's nice, but not a guarantee of anything in an exclusive way....as Killian pointed out with Dartmouth and G'Town. or ND.
the non-issue of NU not being in Big Ten jeopardy i think demonstrates the point, no matter how much Big Ten back-slapping there is about comprehensive AAU membership. those schools are all so big, with so many alums, donors giving, cranking out grads every year who turn into the previous two and 50,000 total enrollment they are advantaged tremendously in any kind of ranking, endowment measures (hanging curve ball...), etc. Texas and ATM are much the same in size. a school like NU is about 30,000 total and been around 25,000 since the late 70's. i know CU and OU are much that way. i've posted this many times, but from my perspective, sitting in a lecture hall with 250 of your closest friends the first 3 semesters of college is pretty much the same wherever you go.
there was talk around Boulder that Utah not being an AAU school was causing some Pac hedging....but, as it turns out not so much an issue. However, Pac is pretty top heavy in the prestige department with a slew of non AAU schools as well.
Terry in Crapchester wrote:I think it was a bigger issue for the Big Ten than the Pac, given that every Big Ten member was a member of the AAU, and the Pac already had three members (Arizona State, Oregon State, Washington State) that were not AAU members.
which i do say above. and if NU's membership isn't in doubt (as i think and you state)....then it can't really be a "bigger" issue, can it? obviously the Pac was willing to live with non-AAU members like OSU, OU, Tech....in the big "offer". but, there was some grousing from the Pac people about Utah that i saw on CU boards. just pointing out in both examples from a year ago to measure to which academics "really" mattered. some, but not enough to counter-act TV moneys.
Re: ND joining the Big10 now even more remote
Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 5:30 pm
by Terry in Crapchester
Goober McTuber wrote:Golden Domer penis envy never gets old, does it?
Keep deluding yourself, if that's what makes you feel good. But it's not ND that wants into the Big Ten. Just sayin'.
Re: ND joining the Big10 now even more remote
Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 5:35 pm
by Goober McTuber
Terry in Crapchester wrote:Goober McTuber wrote:Golden Domer penis envy never gets old, does it?
Keep deluding yourself, if that's what makes you feel good. But it's not ND that wants into the Big Ten. Just sayin'.
You're the one that can't stop talking about it. The Big 10 turned them down once, and you've never gotten over it.
Re: ND joining the Big10 now even more remote
Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 7:21 pm
by Terry in Crapchester
Goober McTuber wrote:Terry in Crapchester wrote:Goober McTuber wrote:Golden Domer penis envy never gets old, does it?
Keep deluding yourself, if that's what makes you feel good. But it's not ND that wants into the Big Ten. Just sayin'.
You're the one that can't stop talking about it. The Big 10 turned them down once, and you've never gotten over it.
The Big Ten turned down ND twice, actually. Once was in 1909, the other time was in 1924.
I was about 40 years away from being born the last time it happened, and even you (I think) weren't born yet.
Since then, ND has turned the Big Ten down in 1999. ND also failed to avail itself of at least two opportunities to join the Big Ten, once in 2003 and once in 2010.
ND has no interest in being in the Big Ten. Period. I only talk about it since most of this board act as if ND somehow "belongs" in the Big Ten. You'll notice that I didn't start this thread, and even in my first post I mentioned intentionally refraining from starting a topic on it, in response to something that already had been posted on the interwebs.
Re: ND joining the Big10 now even more remote
Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 5:43 pm
by indyfrisco
Terry in Crapchester wrote:I only talk about it since most of this board act as if ND somehow "belongs" in the Big Ten.
I think most here think ND should be in a conference. None of us give a flying fuck which one it is.
Re: ND joining the Big10 now even more remote
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 10:02 pm
by Terry in Crapchester
IndyFrisco wrote:I think most here think ND should be in a conference.
Against my better judgment to ask this, but why should ND be in a conference?
None of us give a flying fuck which one it is.
I know Van doesn't really post here anymore, but he has been quite adamant about ND specifically joining the Big Ten.
Odd, considering Van has no ties to either ND or the Big Ten.
Re: ND joining the Big10 now even more remote
Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 5:28 pm
by indyfrisco
Terry in Crapchester wrote:Against my better judgment to ask this, but why should ND be in a conference?
They are pretty much the only team that a mere 9-10 win season pretty much guarantees themselves a BCS spot. 9-10 wins in the Big 10, Big 12, PAC 12, or SEC most likely gets you a decent bowl, but not a BCS.
The reason I say no one cares which one is simply because no one really cares about ND anymore besides you, Killian and toejam. They just aren't that relevant unless they are good. For the most part, there are ND Fans and there are ND Haters, but that is when they are good. When they suck, no one cares.
Re: ND joining the Big10 now even more remote
Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 7:37 pm
by Terry in Crapchester
IndyFrisco wrote:Terry in Crapchester wrote:Against my better judgment to ask this, but why should ND be in a conference?
They are pretty much the only team that a mere 9-10 win season pretty much guarantees themselves a BCS spot.
Rack!
Sin,
UConn 2010
Illinois 2007
Re: ND joining the Big10 now even more remote
Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 5:47 pm
by indyfrisco
UCONN was co-champs of their conference. Illinois was the second team in their conference. I'm not saying it is impossible for a 9-10 win team to get into a BCS bowl without winning their conference. I am saying that a 9-10 win ND team will damn near always get in unless you lose your last 2-3 games of the season.
Re: ND joining the Big10 now even more remote
Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 8:28 pm
by Terry in Crapchester
IndyFrisco wrote:UCONN was co-champs of their conference.
That was pretty much my point -- that the automatic bid for the six BCS conference champs is a sweeter deal than anything ND has.
Don't believe me? Consider that, in the history of the BCS, every BCS conference except the Big XII has had at least one conference champ who qualified for the BCS under circumstances where ND would have been ineligible for the BCS. ND can't even be considered for the BCS unless they finish in the Top 14 (Top 12 prior to 2006).