T1B

Back in your Douglas days?

Takes an amazing touch to land so hard that the engine pylons break loose, but still soft enough that you didn't break them clean off. My hats off to these two guys.

LS - In the commercial aviation world, when there are at least two pilots (say, a Captain and a First Officer) in the cockpit, do you agree with the statement, "Planes are safer when the least experienced pilot is flying, because it means the second pilot isn't going to be afraid to speak up"?

I guess the answer to that depends. Generally speaking today I would disagree with that statement. Back in the early days of commercial aviation I might have agreed with that. There were plenty of "Captains" that thought first officers were just in the way. These old guys would treat anyone below them as if they didn't need them or they were unworthy of being in their presence. Today we have CRM (Cockpit Resource Managment). This is training that helps the flight crew work together to look at all possible outcomes, issues, etc. The "Captain" is still the one in charge, but today he will often ask for input before tackling a problem.

That said, I think among Asian Airlines this can still be a problem. The culture there says you don't question your elders or superiors. There have been plenty of cases where FO on Asian airlines have watched their Captain do something stupid but they were afraid to speak up. Furthermore, many Asian Captains have an ego problem. When I am flying into LAX which isn't much thankfully, I am always on an extra level of alert. Too often for it to be coincidence I have been given vectors to avoid an Asian airliner that isn't following ATC to the T. I have had two specific instances at LAX where I had the blood start pumping like mad. I think they may hide behind the language sometimes.

Left Seater wrote:I guess the answer to that depends. Generally speaking today I would disagree with that statement. Back in the early days of commercial aviation I might have agreed with that. There were plenty of "Captains" that thought first officers were just in the way. These old guys would treat anyone below them as if they didn't need them or they were unworthy of being in their presence. Today we have CRM (Cockpit Resource Managment). This is training that helps the flight crew work together to look at all possible outcomes, issues, etc. The "Captain" is still the one in charge, but today he will often ask for input before tackling a problem.

That said, I think among Asian Airlines this can still be a problem. The culture there says you don't question your elders or superiors. There have been plenty of cases where FO on Asian airlines have watched their Captain do something stupid but they were afraid to speak up. Furthermore, many Asian Captains have an ego problem. When I am flying into LAX which isn't much thankfully, I am always on an extra level of alert. Too often for it to be coincidence I have been given vectors to avoid an Asian airliner that isn't following ATC to the T. I have had two specific instances at LAX where I had the blood start pumping like mad. I think they may hide behind the language sometimes.

So, what your saying is flying around LA is about like driving around LA? Watch any and all zipperhead drivers very closely.

How about Indian pilots?

I've watch female Indians navigate our parking lot at work. It is a nice blend of comedy and horror.

Lefty, what were you thinking, offering AP a chance to talk about himself again?

Seriously.

:doh:

Left Seater wrote:I guess the answer to that depends. Generally speaking today I would disagree with that statement. Back in the early days of commercial aviation I might have agreed with that. There were plenty of "Captains" that thought first officers were just in the way. These old guys would treat anyone below them as if they didn't need them or they were unworthy of being in their presence. Today we have CRM (Cockpit Resource Managment). This is training that helps the flight crew work together to look at all possible outcomes, issues, etc. The "Captain" is still the one in charge, but today he will often ask for input before tackling a problem.

That said, I think among Asian Airlines this can still be a problem. The culture there says you don't question your elders or superiors. There have been plenty of cases where FO on Asian airlines have watched their Captain do something stupid but they were afraid to speak up. Furthermore, many Asian Captains have an ego problem. When I am flying into LAX which isn't much thankfully, I am always on an extra level of alert. Too often for it to be coincidence I have been given vectors to avoid an Asian airliner that isn't following ATC to the T. I have had two specific instances at LAX where I had the blood start pumping like mad. I think they may hide behind the language sometimes.

Funny you mentioned Asian pilots and their culture, because those (and Colombian pilots) were what led to the remark being made. It's from Outliers, an excellent book. Suggested reading for anyone who likes to do that kinda stuff.

Left Seater wrote: I think they may hide behind the language sometimes.

"FaFa zoro pippa don win wunway twee zoro fa such a go.

FaFa zoro pippa wol bee are wok ovah Farest Grave twee thsand web bound."

Typical zipperhead on instructional flight from aviation school at HIO. This dudes have to have an instructor along just to communicate with the tower. It takes them more time to talk to the tower that get their solo time down. By the time they move up to multi engine, you can actually understand them . The tower has to ask them 2 to 3 times sometimes..these zips start calling about 12 miles out and are damn near ready to enter down wind before they understand what to do.

The correct pronunciation is:

Four Four Zero papa down wind runway three zero touch and go.

Four Four zero papa will be air work over Forest Grove at three thousand west bound.

I would have thought you blow the tires out first before knocking the engines off..

Oh...I was thinking something more along the lines of "have you ever toppled over a balcony while projectile vomiting then woken up in the dumpster below with several broken ribs"?

In the two pilot helicopter cockpit world the PICs still tend to be dicks, CRM be damned. Everybody pays lip service to it, but once the typical helicopter captain is in the seat he starts to channel Adolf ranting on about firing up the ovens and the SIC had best just nod his head and do what he's told.

I've long had a personal theory that the helicopter industry is largely filled with misanthropes and misfits, guys who have few redeeming social skills, and for the most part can only find employment as a pilot because it is such a niche skillset. Oh, they all start out nice and accomodating, but after ten years of being berated by the guy in the right seat for being an ape behind the controls and having all the common sense of the guy's last ex-wife, generally they all turn sour at some point and begin venting their bile on the next poor sap who is his SIC now.

Seriously, this is not an exaggeration. As such, the typical PIC wouldn't let his SIC even look at the controls during an emergency, much less willingly give them to him. Case in point: I had a AUX hydraulics last hitch where after I had acertained the aircraft was flyable, I asked my SIC if he had ever landed the bird under those circumstances. He replied, no, he hadn't except briefly during training. I told him the controls were his to assume if he wanted to do it for real, after which he planted the bird smoothly and confidently on the ground with little coaching from me. When I relayed this story later to the rest of the guys, they were flabbergasted I would do such a thing and commented I must have such big balls that only a wheelbarrow would suffice to make me ambulatory. Personally, I didn't see it as a big deal, and the guy was practically hovering just from the boost in his confidence that that gave him. But, truth be told, not many PICs would at control.

Rooster,

I have heard the same thing from some of the guys flying the offshore well shuttles. Not sure why that seems to still hang on with you guys. Of course we all have stories, but for me those days are behind me.

Props for letting the right seat get some OJT training. I have no problem, letting the right seat handle certain issues and using it as a teachable moment. However, if it is really serious issue, I am going to make the decisions and the landing. If anyone is going to break something it will be me, not the guy in the right seat. However the right seat will still be involved in each and every point of the process.

Left Seater wrote: However the right seat will still be involved in each and every point of the process.

Hold my beer and watch this!

Not quite, but I still laughed.