Solar System PET

[Mikey]

After four or five years of thinking about it we finally decided to pull the trigger and install a solar PV system. By itself it doesn't really make economic sense because of the long payback (about 15 years at today's electric rates, 11 years with moderate increase ). But we're killing two birds with one stone. We have a pool in the back yard and a lot of patio space with no shade to speak of, and it really bakes in the summer around the pool. Can't walk on the cement with bare feet on really hot days. In addition to PV we've been thinking about shade structures for the patio so we won't have to buy four or five new umbrellas every summer.

So, we're putting in a solar shade structure. Technically it's a ground mounted PV system so the 30% federal tax credit can be applied to the entire cost.

The layout of our yard and the planned PV system




Here's a 3D rendering of the structure




Here are a couple of "before" pictures. The long side of the "L" shape will start at the nearest intersection of expansion joints and go all the way past where the bbq is.




The long side will end near the corner of the concrete, next to the fence.




First day (Friday) -

We originally thought they were going to have to break out large sections of the patio to pour footings, but the contractor found a system (which was approved by the county) where they just have to epoxy some bolts into the existing concrete. A lot neater than cutting out a big chunk and then trying to match the color with new stuff. This is the only penetration that's required:




Sonotube for one of the posts by the fence:




Here are the solar panels. 23 240 Watt Sharp panels.




Second day (Saturday) -

They worked a half day today and "primered" the vertical posts. Poured the footings for the two posts that are going in the dirt, and installed the five that go on the patio.




The conduit in this footing goes over to the side of the house where the load center will be located.




Here's a closeup of the mounting system for the vertical posts on the patio. Strange...they're not using square headed screws.

[smackaholic]

So, just how much is that tax credit worth?

i am all for this sort of thing. Makes sense, especially since it serves a dual purpose. I do have a problem however with you expecting the rest of us to help pay for it, ya fukkin' freeloader.

[Mikey]

So, just how much is that tax credit worth?

i am all for this sort of thing. Makes sense, especially since it serves a dual purpose. I do have a problem however with you expecting the rest of us to help pay for it, ya fukkin' freeloader.

How much is the tax credit worth?

Let me put it this way, you're not subsidizing me nearly as much as you're subsidizing Exxon.

[Mikey]

Solar System PET?!?!

I thought you'd taken the road trip to end all road trips.

:doh:

When I make that trip I prolly won't be posting any pics.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Riveting stuff, dude.

[Dr_Phibes]

smoke from the BBQ will get the panels filthy. you'll have to scrub them every day.

[smackaholic]

So, just how much is that tax credit worth?

i am all for this sort of thing. Makes sense, especially since it serves a dual purpose. I do have a problem however with you expecting the rest of us to help pay for it, ya fukkin' freeloader.

How much is the tax credit worth?

Let me put it this way, you're not subsidizing me nearly as much as you're subsidizing Exxon.

Exxon employs thousands and they provide me with a product we all need.

You, on th eother hand just want to make your pad a little nicer on someone else's dime.

Some folks call that stealing.

[Mikey]

smoke from the BBQ will get the panels filthy. you'll have to scrub them every day.

The underside of the panels doesn't produce any electricity.

[Mikey]

So, just how much is that tax credit worth?

i am all for this sort of thing. Makes sense, especially since it serves a dual purpose. I do have a problem however with you expecting the rest of us to help pay for it, ya fukkin' freeloader.

How much is the tax credit worth?

Let me put it this way, you're not subsidizing me nearly as much as you're subsidizing Exxon.

Exxon employs thousands and they provide me with a product we all need.

You, on th eother hand just want to make your pad a little nicer on someone else's dime.

Some folks call that stealing.

Your mortgage deduction doesn't employ anybody or provide me with any product.

My PV system provides a tangible benefit to the other ratepayers in my utility's service territory and the rest of the western electrical grid by reducing the load on both the generation and transmission systems. On hot days when the utilities are straining to meet the demand I'll be producing my own power and not contributing to any sytem overload. The more home PV systems are installed the fewer new generating stations and new transmission lines will be needed. It's cheaper to subsidize distributed generation than it is to build new infrastructure.

[Mikey]

One other thing...

All of the equipment I'm buying was made in the USA by American workers. I'm also employing American workers to install it. Believe it or not there isn't a Spanish speaking dude in the crew.

So, take your stealing bullshit and go suck some Exxon dick.

[smackaholic]

My mortgage balance is currently under 35K. I haven't been able to itemize for at least 5 years. I do agree though, that mortgage deductions are bullshit. WTF do we subsidize behaior that is part of what has us in the fix we are in.

If you are saving the power grid so much damn money. let them subsidize your toys.

As I said earlier, i think PV makes sense in your neck of the woods. Making others pay for it does not. I realize that you do not make tax law and expect you to take advantage of it. I surely would. That doesn't make it right.

[mvscal]

All of the equipment I'm buying was made in the USA by American workers.

Highly unlikely.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

I highly doubt Mikey would lie about any of this.



Or would he? Hmmmmmm...

:?

[Mikey]

All of the equipment I'm buying was made in the USA by American workers.

Highly unlikely.

True, but it all qualifies as "buy American" or whatever under ARRA. The Enphase microinverters are 100% American from what I understand, the Sharp panels maybe not. But I'd rather buy some Japanese parts assembled here than pay for anything that came from China.

[Mikey]

So how long until you turn your crib into a day care center or house of worship?

It's already both.

[smackaholic]

All of the equipment I'm buying was made in the USA by American workers.

Highly unlikely.

By American, he means, North, Central (mostly) and South.

[poptart]

Riveting stuff, dude.

Can't wait 'til Dinsdale comes in and tells Mikey how badly fucked up that is.

[smackaholic]

Being in local, those glued in bolts will likely suffice. Most other parts of the country that get big winds from time to time might not.

Can the panels be tilted for better efficiency when the sun is lower in the winter?

[smackaholic]

[IL softball] after studying the pole lengths a bit [/IL softball] it does appear that it will slant to the south a bit. Is that the case? If it doesn't, it should.

[smackaholic]

Been thinking about building a carport for my RV. If I shingle it in PV cells, does that mean I can get other folks to pay for a chunk of it?

Prolly don't make a lick of sense to do it here in the U&R, but WTF, I would feel better as I'd be doing something for a politically connected PV company the earf.

It would never make sense to put any on my roof. The slope runs the wrong way and besides, I have one of those things on the south side of the house that also supplies energy savings and nobody had to pay for it. it's called a big ass oak tree. That and a big attic fan make life here without AC pretty tolerable 'cept for about 5 days a year.

[Dinsdale]

Strange...they're not using square headed screws.

Maybe because Torx pretty much kills all other fasteners in terms of not stripping under torque. Hex-headed lags would have worked just fine, but they can't be sank flush against a metal brace.

Can't wait 'til Dinsdale comes in and tells Mikey how badly fucked up that is.

Since I've seen it done the same way with much heavier shit to support than that (not by me, I don't mount the mechanical)... in the last week, I don't really see the problem. Epoxy technology is pretty crazy these days -- I'll be going few a few hundred gallons of it this week.

[Mikey]

[IL softball] after studying the pole lengths a bit [/IL softball] it does appear that it will slant to the south a bit. Is that the case? If it doesn't, it should.

It will be sloped about 1 degree to the south. Not optimum for summer production (which would be about 20 deg I think) but better in the winter. We should still get something like 95% of the potential annual exposure.

We considered several different designs. Since the panels are all going to be in one plane, if we used a bigger slope it would look strange to have it a lot higher at the front than the back. Sort of like one of those fun house rooms. We could have used several rows lined up at 20 deg but then you have to put enough space between them so that they don't shade each other. That would have made the structure larger (which we didn't want because of space limitations and symmetry), and it would have affected the shade and rain cover. You can get variable pitch and azimuth systems, which allow the panels to follow the sun's angle on a daily/seasonal basis but we wanted a simpler structure. It would also add a lot to the cost.

Also, those posts are 10 feet long. They will eventually be cut down to 8 feet, maybe 9. The plan is for 8 but I'm thinking of making it a little higher. Have to decide by tomorrow.

[Mikey]

Been thinking about building a carport for my RV. If I shingle it in PV cells, does that mean I can get other folks to pay for a chunk of it?

30% Federal tax credit plus whatever incentives your state might have. The ones in CA used to be large but now are down to almost nothing. You'll have to start itemizing again too prolly.

Prolly don't make a lick of sense to do it here in the U&R, but WTF, I would feel better as I'd be doing something for a politically connected PV company the earf.

It could make sense, you just need to cost it out. Like I said, even with the tax credit the payback here isn't that great but we needed a patio cover anyway which would have cost $$ to build. Germany is a lot farther north than Nova Scotia or wherever it is you live and from what I hear they have the biggest per captia PV capacity of any country. Of course they have electric tariffs that are highly favorable to self-generated power. They have to buy any extra generation that you produce at inflated prices.

It would never make sense to put any on my roof. The slope runs the wrong way and besides, I have one of those things on the south side of the house that also supplies energy savings and nobody had to pay for it. it's called a big ass oak tree. That and a big attic fan make life here without AC pretty tolerable 'cept for about 5 days a year.

Most of my roof faces east or west and the western side is already pretty much covered by the pool heater. I have a small south facing area on the garage and I'm thinking of putting in solar hot water. We sometimes pay more for propane (no gas here), which we use for hot water, space heating and the clothes dryer, than electricity. We'll see how this project goes first.

[smackaholic]

You live in the fukking dessert. You really shouldn't even know what central heating or a clothes dryer are. Invest in sweaters and a fukking clothes line. With all this green subsidizing sillyness, the gubmint ought to pay you to hang up a clothes line. Of course suburban snob protocol equates hanging laundry with being poor, so it's frowned on. Much better to install a 50K dollar PV system, with other folks cash, to run that dryer

I would think that you should be just about able to be a net energy producer with a half way decent PV setup. If you do without AC, you should be well into the black cock as far as your 'lectricity use is concerned.

[Mikey]

I've got a clothesline, dumbshit, and I rarely use the central heating. Only when the wife demands it. I also keep my T-stat set at 84 in the summer, so the AC rarely comes on either. And if your reading comprehension was any better than Punxatawney Phil's you would have figured out that the dryer uses propane, and very little electricity, as does the heater.

So tell me, Mrs. reverse snob bitch, how do you get along without hot water?

With all this green subsidizing sillyness, the gubmint ought to pay you to hang up a clothes line.

So, it's silly to subsidize green energy, but you have no problem with billions of subsidies going to fossil fuel companies that would still be the most profitable companies in the world without those subsidies?

You are one truly mixed up motherfucker.

[smackaholic]

I've got a clothesline, dumbshit, and I rarely use the central heating. Only when the wife demands it. I also keep my T-stat set at 84 in the summer, so the AC rarely comes on either. And if your reading comprehension was any better than Punxatawney Phil's you would have figured out that the dryer uses propane, and very little electricity, as does the heater.

So tell me, Mrs. reverse snob bitch, how do you get along without hot water?

I don't. I also live in a climate where mother nature doesn't always play nice. Using the sun for such things doesn't work quite so well for better than half the year. i am actually a big fan of solar water heating. IMO, it makes way more sense than PV does. I would think that everyone in your neck of the woods would have it.

I did notice that you used propane. I also noticed that you whined a bit about the cost of it.

[Mikey]

Just an FYI we moved out of suburbia partly because of what you call the snob protocol.

Last neighborhood we lived in (near Las Vegas) had CC&Rs that prohibited clothes lines. If you think that's ridiculous in SoCal, try the Nevada desert. I could dry a pair of jeans in 10 minutes outside vs 45 minutes or whatever in a clothes dryer. I mounted one in a 5 gallon bucket of concrete and moved it next to the bedroom window in the back yard so the snoops couldn't see it from the street. Wet jeans and bedsheets next to an open window work better than AC in the desert in the summer.

They also made me move my 69 Merc out of the driveway the day the registration expired. I seriously got a letter the next day telling me I was in violation of the CC&Rs against having an "inoperable vehicle" on the driveway. Couldn't plant tree in the front yard without approval from a bunch of retired assholes with nothing better to do than police their neighbors.

Around here nobody says anything about anything. Nice to have neighbors who mind their own business. You can do anything you want to your house as long as it's to code. Doesn't even have to be to code unless you ever plan on selling it. A lot neighborhood associations wouldn't allow the PV system we're putting in.

[Dinsdale]

So, it's silly to subsidize green energy, but you have no problem with billions of subsidies going to fossil fuel companies that would still be the most profitable companies in the world without those subsidies?

Question: has the use of false dilemmas gone well for you before?

[Mikey]

So, it's silly to subsidize green energy, but you have no problem with billions of subsidies going to fossil fuel companies that would still be the most profitable companies in the world without those subsidies?

Question: has the use of false dilemmas gone well for you before?

Wouldn't know because this isn't a false dilemma.

[Wolfman]

84 !!! I guess that might feel cool if it's 115º outside. I wish you well with all that "green" technology. What could possibly go wrong???

[smackaholic]

84 !!! I guess that might feel cool if it's 115º outside. I wish you well with all that "green" technology. What could possibly go wrong???

Yeah, 84 in local is a bit different than 84 in swfla or any other part of fla for that matter. I would think that with a few nice oak trees over his house, mikey could get by without AC at all. Of course, Oak trees don't do so well in the desert.

As for what could go wrong? I don't 'spose local gets baseball sized hail too often, does it?

[smackaholic]

It will be sloped about 1 degree to the south. Not optimum for summer production (which would be about 20 deg I think) but better in the winter. We should still get something like 95% of the potential annual exposure.

We considered several different designs. Since the panels are all going to be in one plane, if we used a bigger slope it would look strange to have it a lot higher at the front than the back. Sort of like one of those fun house rooms. We could have used several rows lined up at 20 deg but then you have to put enough space between them so that they don't shade each other. That would have made the structure larger (which we didn't want because of space limitations and symmetry), and it would have affected the shade and rain cover. You can get variable pitch and azimuth systems, which allow the panels to follow the sun's angle on a daily/seasonal basis but we wanted a simpler structure. It would also add a lot to the cost.

Also, those posts are 10 feet long. They will eventually be cut down to 8 feet, maybe 9. The plan is for 8 but I'm thinking of making it a little higher. Have to decide by tomorrow.

I think a 20 degree slope would actually add to the look as well as be slightly better, efficiency wise. I do believe you got it backwards concerning slope and winter efficiency. The sun's lower in the winter. More slope would be more better. Of course sloping it means it becomes taller and a bit of a sail, so you'd likely have to do something more to hold it down than epoxy. Also, having it stick up a little helps with visibility to those passing by who will look up and say "cool, that dude has solar panels. he gives a fukk and doesn't hate the earf like the republicans do". But republican haytas will say something more along the lines of "oh look, a fukking hippy with a PV set up that I helped pay for. fukk him".

[Mikey]

84 !!! I guess that might feel cool if it's 115º outside. I wish you well with all that "green" technology. What could possibly go wrong???

Ignorant as usualm I see.

PV solar these days is about the most dependable thing you can buy. No moving parts. Set it and forget it, unless you want to watch how much free electricity you're producing. Just have to hose the dust off occasionally. Why do you think companies like WalMart, Costco, Toyota, Kohl's, etc. etc. are putting thousands of PV panels on their roofs? You think it's just for the publicity? I don't really see too much of that but I do see lots of PV being installed.

The panels have a 25 year warranty, BTW. And no, not too much baseball sized hail around here.

Here's a Toyota warehouse in Ontario, CA. About 8,000 or so panels there

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=toyota+in ... 04117&z=19


Here's a Costco store in Lake Elsinore, and a Staples right next door

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Costco+in ... 04117&z=19


You're absolutely right though. This "green" technology. What could go wrong? These companies are all setting themselves up for disaster.

[smackaholic]

84 !!! I guess that might feel cool if it's 115º outside. I wish you well with all that "green" technology. What could possibly go wrong???

Ignorant as usualm I see.

PV solar these days is about the most dependable thing you can buy. No moving parts. Set it and forget it, unless you want to watch how much free electricity you're producing. Just have to hose the dust off occasionally. Why do you think companies like WalMart, Costco, Toyota, Kohl's, etc. etc. are putting thousands of PV panels on their roofs? You think it's just for the publicity? I don't really see too much of that but I do see lots of PV being installed.

The panels have a 25 year warranty, BTW. And no, not too much baseball sized hail around here.

Here's a Toyota warehouse in Ontario, CA. About 8,000 or so panels there

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=toyota+in ... 04117&z=19


Here's a Costco store in Lake Elsinore, and a Staples right next door

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Costco+in ... 04117&z=19


You're absolutely right though. This "green" technology. What could go wrong? These companies are all setting themselves up for disaster.

They are doing it for a few reasons.

First off, they are in a place where it makes sense. Something about being in a desert with bright sunshine about 500 days a year. And no baseball sized hail

2rd They get to build it with other folks money.

d. They advertise that they do it and that it makes them better than you.

XII. The shade keeps down the AC bill.

[Screw_Michigan]

Also, having it stick up a little helps with visibility to those passing by who will look up and say "cool, that dude has solar panels. he gives a fukk and doesn't hate the earf like the republicans do". But republican haytas will say something more along the lines of "oh look, a fukking hippy with a PV set up that I helped pay for. fukk him".

I laffed.

[Mikey]

It will be sloped about 1 degree to the south. Not optimum for summer production (which would be about 20 deg I think) but better in the winter. We should still get something like 95% of the potential annual exposure.

We considered several different designs. Since the panels are all going to be in one plane, if we used a bigger slope it would look strange to have it a lot higher at the front than the back. Sort of like one of those fun house rooms. We could have used several rows lined up at 20 deg but then you have to put enough space between them so that they don't shade each other. That would have made the structure larger (which we didn't want because of space limitations and symmetry), and it would have affected the shade and rain cover. You can get variable pitch and azimuth systems, which allow the panels to follow the sun's angle on a daily/seasonal basis but we wanted a simpler structure. It would also add a lot to the cost.

Also, those posts are 10 feet long. They will eventually be cut down to 8 feet, maybe 9. The plan is for 8 but I'm thinking of making it a little higher. Have to decide by tomorrow.

I think a 20 degree slope would actually add to the look as well as be slightly better, efficiency wise. I do believe you got it backwards concerning slope and winter efficiency. The sun's lower in the winter. More slope would be more better. Of course sloping it means it becomes taller and a bit of a sail, so you'd likely have to do something more to hold it down than epoxy. Also, having it stick up a little helps with visibility to those passing by who will look up and say "cool, that dude has solar panels. he gives a fukk and doesn't hate the earf like the republicans do". But republican haytas will say something more along the lines of "oh look, a fukking hippy with a PV set up that I helped pay for. fukk him".

You're absolutely right, I had it wrong.

Lower slope maximizes summer output. Optimum winter slope is something like 22 or 24 degrees. To optimize total annual output here you'd use 16 degrees. But like I said, even with 1 degree we're getting 95% of the potential production. If we made the slope 20 degrees the end closest to the house would be someting like 5 feet higher than the other end and the narrow section would have to start part way up the slope, or have a different line. We decided it would look way too funky. No passers by are going to see it anyways. There are no passers by here. Only people who see it will be our next door neighbors to the south and behind us, and maybe the folks on the hillside across from us. We just want something that blends well with the yard and can impress all our hippy friends that come over on Saturdays for weekly acid trips and re-enactments of anti-war marches, complete with burning of faux draft cards.

[smackaholic]

Burning faux draft cards is bad for the environment. Shame on you. Well, unless you make them out of hemp paper. Then you could just use them to roll joints.

[Mikey]

Day 3 -

Not a lot of progress today.

Got the beams painted...






Got the last two posts planted and all of them painted.




They had to special order some hardware for the tops of the post. The carpenter also has about 140 2x2 slats he has to paint so he's going to stay home and spray them instead of waiting until they're installed. So...no work here tomorrow.

[Dan Vogel]

Wow I'm going to read this topic more close when I have the time. It's very interesting Mikey. Thank you.

[Left Seater]

Wow, 84 is the ac setting in summer? That is higher than what I set it at when we are gone for days at a time. At the Lefty household the program kicks it up to 78 at 8:00 am, then 75 at 4:00 pm, 74 at 5:00 pm, and 67 at 10:00 pm. Granted Mrs Lefty likes to sleep with a comforter over her head at all times, so we keep it cold at night.

My mom put solar panels on the roof of her house in Northern NM about 5 years ago. She has been very happy with them. They wouldn't work at our new place as the whole yard is shaded by Elm and Oak trees.