T1B

Sudden Sam wrote:Idiot.

Werd.

Sin,
Urban Meyer

uh, Hal Mumme?

Papa Willie wrote:That being said - if it were really super-duper - you'd see every NFL team running it. You don't.

No.

The reason an offense like Chip Kelly's (or any sort of modern CFB hurry-up spread) won't work in the NFL..

With Chip's offense specifically, it's predicated on your QB and RBs being able to outrun a passrusher (with a big head start), and it works just fine. In the NFL, a QB is typically 30, with years of knee injuries under his belt... Payton Manning and Tom Brady likely can't outrun even the slowest DE in the NFL, since those guys are the fastest-of-the-fast from CFB.

It's pretty much two different sports, in that regard. While the NFL is making inroads to CFB-style offenses, that transition will never be complete, but they glean the parts that are adaptable (since they're generally not stupid).

Oregon fan LOVES hearing "Auburn, LSU -- Oregon can't beat the SEC!"

Heard it from a transplant just last weekend. He really went on about it. I pointed out that in the last 15ish years, since Bellotti/Kelly Oregon has a winning record against the SEC, but apparently that doesn't matter.

Cracks me up that after a couple of losses to fast defenses, people seem to think the greatest offensive innovater in the game today won't come up with a little sumpm-sumpm to counter the outside-in defenses.

Keep thinking that, Inbreds.

And keep thinking that Oregon hasn't assembled a defense that's every bit as fast as Bama's (though not quite as big)... that they practice against every day.

How's Bama's Old Man Offense going to score on Oregon, exactly? That thought hasn't occured to the BillyBobs yet.

I am not so sure about that.

Granted we will never know but I think Texas beats Bama if McCoy plays that whole game. Texas was within 3 and had the ball with 4 minutes to go with their back up QB who we know now is horrible.

If I had to choose to defend an offense I hadn't really seen, I would rather go against a smash mouth running attack than a spread type offense.

on the by and by, i've always liked Gundy's offenses. in the way i don't want to like it since he's a poke...or whatever.

but, check the stats.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/s ... =I-A_BIG12

1200 rushing
1436 passing

that's pretty good balance.

through 5 games, that's not the spread side show nonsense most would point to in what has become a spread type O league.

and Snyder has more rushing yards than passing....but they win at the line at the LOS. and they don't beat themselves with penalties, turnovers, and they win special teams.

i played summer baseball and some other sports against Cale and Mike. Norman High and Midwest City (an OKC suburb that was mostly a town based on the Tinker Air Force Base where the AWACS planes were centered). Me at Norman High and the Gundies at Midwest City. Mike was OK, Cale was a prick. they were both really good, obviously. tough kids at MWC. Norman were college town kids. we won at hoops, they beat some good Norman teams in football when it mattered almost every time. wrestling was also a pretty strong rivalry for a bit...but MWC were the state champs million times over in the state big class. golf and tennis, not so much...for we high brow hillbillies (if i may dip into Bill Callahan's vernacular?) had them there.

anyway, beer driven night before Oklahoma-Texas....Mike Gundy's O is not MIke Leach. he's really good. his defense sucks though so far. which is weird since Bill Young is a legit DC. probably the first legit DC OSU has had in long time.

Geez, I hope Sam doesn't realize that Spread and West coast offenses have won the SEC title and played in more SEC title games since 1992 than power run offenses. He might bite an SEC ball sack off in mid stroke.

But then again maybe someone should tell Gundy that as well.

Papa Willie wrote:That being said - if it were really super-duper - you'd see every NFL team running it. You don't.

Dinsdale wrote:No.

The reason an offense like Chip Kelly's (or any sort of modern CFB hurry-up spread) won't work in the NFL..

With Chip's offense specifically, it's predicated on your QB and RBs being able to outrun a passrusher (with a big head start), and it works just fine. In the NFL, a QB is typically 30, with years of knee injuries under his belt... Payton Manning and Tom Brady likely can't outrun even the slowest DE in the NFL, since those guys are the fastest-of-the-fast from CFB.

It's pretty much two different sports, in that regard. While the NFL is making inroads to CFB-style offenses, that transition will never be complete, but they glean the parts that are adaptable (since they're generally not stupid).

Papa Willie wrote: ^^^^^This is why you don't see it in the NFL. QB's will die. Too much defensive speed.

So you counter an argument by...agreeing with it? Pure brills.

Sudden Sam wrote:
Idiot.

Gundy must have Down's. How else to explain a guy assuming strategy will evolve to neutralize a dominant team's strengths?

I see you haven't gotten any more intelligent over the past four days.

Sam, Urban Meyer successfully ran the spread in the SEC.

Sudden Sam wrote:

M Club wrote: Gundy must have Down's. How else to explain a guy assuming strategy will evolve to neutralize a dominant team's strengths?

When defenses have size and the speed to cover sideline to sideline...as well as deep (Alabama, LSU, South Carolina, Florida), how is a spread-type offense going to succeed?

I suppose there's zero difference between running straight ahead into eight dudes or six, right?

Urban did just fine with the spread when he had the talent to do so and Auburn just as well when they had the money. Credit Saban for finding a way to fit five recruiting classes into four classes, though.

Great melt. Can barely even string coherent words together. Keep them coming, fatty.

Sudden Sam wrote:

Van wrote:Sam, Urban Meyer successfully ran the spread in the SEC.

He had his run.

Saban showed everyone how to destroy it.

Sure. By having superior players. Hardly a groundbreaking concept.

It wasn't Saban's smarts, it was his superior athletes. Lots of other teams in the SEC that ran similar defensive schemes didn't have nearly as much luck in stopping Meyer's offense. Give Saban Kentucky's players and the spread offense would be magically delicious again.

Van wrote:It wasn't Saban's smarts, it was his superior athletes. Lots of other teams in the SEC that ran similar defensive schemes didn't have nearly as much luck in stopping Meyer's offense. Give Saban Kentucky's players and the spread offense would be magically delicious again.

Give Saban Kentucky's players and the single wing would be magically delicious again.

No, it isn't. It's the ATHLETES. His players are better than your players. He recruits them, so of course he gets credit for that. He also tends to put them in the right positions, so additional kudos there. In the end, however, he doesn't win without having better athletes than his opponent.

Saban gets a certain type of athlete.

Exactly: bigger and faster, and quite a greater number of them. Surprisingly enough, Pete Carroll wanted and got those same types of athletes when he was the coach at USC. Also surprisingly enough, given that enormous advantage, he tended to win a whole lot.

He wants football-smart kids.

As does every coach who ever lived. All you really mean there is he tends to thrive on mercenary dumbasses who at least show up for practice every day and grasp the intricacies of a playbook.

The difference is, Saban is able to get more kids who are bigger and faster.

He has an incredible strength and conditioning program in place.

As do many other BTPCF programs. I'm sure you're aware of, say, Nebraska's? They certainly aren't meh as a football team due to any lack of a top-notch S&C program. No, it's more that they aren't getting the quantity and quality of athletes Saban's stockpiling in Tuscaloosa. That's all it is.

He has a great coaching staff. None of this is news.

He's clearly a great coach. That being said, he and his defense would get their heads kicked in if he was manning the sidelines in Nashville or Oxford.

Do you recall his stints as the head coach at Michigan State and for the Miami Dolphins? Minus superior talent, he was hardly any sort of world-beater.

Saban's a good coach all around. He's even such a good recruiter he shouldn't be allowed an extra recruits a year. But just because he can gameplan well against the spread doesn't mean SEC teams won't move toward the spread even though many of them already have. Using your logic teams can't run pro-style offenses either, coaches having seen it all. Comes down to the players, mostly.

Van wrote: Do you recall his stints as the head coach at Michigan State and for the Miami Dolphins? Minus superior talent, he was hardly any sort of world-beater.

Did a great job at MSU, especially since he was short scholarships most of his tenure because of George Perles. MSU should have been in the BCS in 98. Guess that makes your point about superior athletes, though.

Bama's defense is crushing all those non-spread offenses in the SEC too, so I guess we'll never see them in the SEC either.

Sudden Sam wrote:Getting the kids he wants is obviously a huge part of Saban's success. That goes without saying.

It's 99.9% of his success. Give him Joker Phillips' kids and Saban's 'genius' tag never happens.

But Auburn and Texas and others also are bringing in top 10...hell, top 5 recruiting classes year after year, and they aren't winning like Saban is.

So Bama = the Yankees while Texas = the Red Sox. Either way, both teams have the ability to field better players every year and as a direct result tend to have more success than the Kansas City Royals and Pittsburgh Pirates.

Coaching has as much to do with the Tide's success as anything.

No, the talent on the field has far more to do with their success than any other factor. Coaching is merely what separates them from LSU and Texas, not from Mississippi and Vandy.

Sudden Sam wrote:

Van wrote:Sam, Urban Meyer successfully ran the spread in the SEC.

He had his run.

Saban showed everyone how to destroy it.

So, the winning formula to "destroy" Meyer's offense is to wait for Meyer to get a job in a different conference while simultanioiusly waiting for Tebow to graduate, and endure the asskickings until then?

Genius... I'll write that one down in the playbook there, Coach.


Might wanna back off calling others "dumbass" for a bit, Southern Sam.

And the year before, when Meyer's Florida team hung a thirty-one spot on Saban's Bama squad while winning the SEC CCG? Care to show some youtube clips of that one?

Sure I did, and it doesn't change the fact that Meyer's spread offense beat Saban's Bama defense.

Anyway, so what would you suggest to an OC in the SEC? Should undermanned teams hopelessly continue to run primitive offenses against dominant defenses? Is your advice that they should just keep doing what they're doing, including getting crushed? Trying something else isn't worth the bother? You would tell the perennial doormats of the conference that will never have Bama's or LSU's abundance of top-shelf athletes to stay the course?

You don't see where teams such as Taco Tech and especially Oregon became relevant by switching things up and attempting to beat stronger, more physical foes not by outmuscling them but rather by outsmarting them?

You were a big fan of the Battle of the Somme, weren't you?

No, it hasn't been shown to be ineffective against the top defenses in the conference. When Meyer had equal or superior athletes, he consistently won with that offense.

He certainly won more using the spread than other teams are managing by sticking with traditional offenses. Bottom line, how can you tell teams to continue to do what they're doing when it clearly does not work?

Sudden Sam wrote:It's been shown to be ineffective against the top defenses in the conference.

Oh, OK.

BTW --which opponent scored the most points against SU's vaunted defense last year?

I guess it was Bama... by 3 points, in twice as many games.

You... just aren't capable of discussing anything remotely related to the SEC without saying something monumentally stupid.

Sudden Sam wrote:

M Club wrote: Gundy must have Down's. How else to explain a guy assuming strategy will evolve to neutralize a dominant team's strengths?

When defenses have size and the speed to cover sideline to sideline...as well as deep (Alabama, LSU, South Carolina, Florida), how is a spread-type offense going to succeed?

Muschamp said yesterday on a radio interview that the Oklahoma offense was the most difficult he has ever had to prepare for as a defensive coach and are probably the the best one loss team in the country with their offense designed the way it is and their defense clicking the way it has this season.

Sam, are you denying that Meyer was wildly successful in the SEC using the spread offense, including beating Saban's Bama team with it? Furthermore, are you somehow working under the assumption that Saban's Bama team is the only one in the SEC? Do you think each squad has to play Bama all eight conference games?

See, 'cause otherwise your point was that the SEC won't go to the spread because it will never work, and you're basing this entirely on Bama's defense. Never mind the fact that Bama's defense is killing all those non spread SEC offenses, a point which you still haven't addressed.

So, I'll give you another chance to address it. Exactly how does it make sense for the doormats of the SEC to continue to run their current offenses when they've never worked against Saban's Bama teams before and likely will never work against them in the future? Is your advice to these teams, "Keep doing what you're doing. Don't try something new, i.e., something that will at least afford you a better chance of succeeding than attempting to line up and beat superior physical foes head to head with your physically inferior players. Nope, just keep pounding your heads against a wall and getting shut out."

Should Oregon have stuck with their pre-Mike Bellotti/Chip Kelly conventional offense? If they had done so, would they be where they are now?

Sudden Sam wrote:Saban stopped Meyer's offense in the SEC championship game with very fast, very large players.

So you're saying bigger, faster athletes are the difference?

Alrighty then. Thanks for playing.

Oh, and Meyer still beat Saban in an SEC CCG.

Most SEC defenses are made up of very fast, very big kids. Those type defenses can shut down the spread. Great coaching being the extra ingredient.

Then why was Meyer so wildly successful running the spread in the SEC, and why are non spread offenses so habitually abysmal in the SEC?

More to the point, when do you ever plan on answering the questions I keep posing to you?

Bama's defense is killing all those non spread SEC offenses, a point which you still haven't addressed.

So, I'll give you another chance to address it. Exactly how does it make sense for the doormats of the SEC to continue to run their current offenses when they've never worked against Saban's Bama teams before and likely will never work against them in the future? Is your advice to these teams, "Keep doing what you're doing. Don't try something new, i.e., something that will at least afford you a better chance of succeeding than attempting to line up and beat superior physical foes head to head with your physically inferior players. Nope, just keep pounding your heads against a wall and getting shut out."

Should Oregon have stuck with their pre-Mike Bellotti/Chip Kelly conventional offense? If they had done so, would they be where they are now?

If SEC head coaches and/or OCs thought they could win with the spread, don't you think they'd be running it?

At least one did, and he most certainly won with it. Also, Cam Newton didn't exactly run USC's pro-style offense at Auburn, did he?

It's kind of adorable the way treat your assumption as fact that Meyer peaced out because of Saban and not because he's a straight up bitch. Florida ran roughshod through the SEC using the spread and the one year coaches not named Saban beat up on him he suddenly remembered he liked family dinner hour.

Sam, are you ever going to get around to answering my questions? Yes or no? They're really very simple, and there are only two of them: 1. If not the spread, then what do you suggest? Big, fast athletes that can get to the edge are dominating conventional offenses even more comprehensively than they're killing the spread, so should less talented teams just stick with what they already know will never work? 2. Would Oregon be where they are now had they stuck with a conventional offense?

Sudden Sam wrote: I've never even thought about Meyer leaving because of Saban 'til this thread. I threw that out 'cause of all the hatred for Saban I sense in here.

Sense where? In this thread or in general? I don't see any in this thread, just pushback against your retarded idea Saban has "proved" the spread won't work in the SEC just because he has a dominant defense that shuts down every type of offense it sees. Stringing that out to its logical conclusion - and only one step at that, not ad absurdum - means Saban has proved NO offense will work in the SEC. Unless you're trolling, of course.

The reason Bama doesn't have much issues with SEC spread teams is because nearly its entire defense will be 1st or 2nd team all-SEC, not because Saban's tactics have no counter. You say a big, fast defense will shut the spread down, well durrrrrrrr: 1. most defenses don't have much trouble with slower, weaker offensive units and 2. Bama's ability to shut down the spread seems to diminish along with the talent differential between them and their opponent.

M Club wrote:It's kind of adorable the way treat your assumption as fact that Meyer peaced out because of Saban and not because he's a straight up bitch. Florida ran roughshod through the SEC using the spread and the one year coaches not named Saban beat up on him he suddenly remembered he liked family dinner hour.

The one year coaches not named Saban that beat up on Meyer his last year at Florida were named Les Miles, Steve Spurrier, Dan Mullen and Jimbo Fisher. Just sayin'.

Sudden Sam wrote:They're not going to win a NC with it, though.

A freakish catch and a FG on the last play sayswhat?


Sam, with the takes youve posted here, I doubt Gundy is too terribly hurt by you calling him a "dumbass," due to some possible credibility issues.

You're putting on a clinic, bro.

Sudden Sam wrote:No idea what this is referring to.

Yeah, you've made it abundantly clear that you know very little about CFB.

BSH sayswhat?

So which is it, Sam? Which side of your mouth should we listen to?

The one that keeps refering to '10 Auburn as "mediocre," or the one that says Saban's defense will stop any spread, after getting mudstomped by the "mediocre" team?

You're a mess, dude... just stop. Wanna homer for Bama? Cool, I'm all for it. When you start making completely inane, contradictory statements, one after the other, each one defying logic more than the last, then you should be prepared to be called out for the generous portions of dumbass you're dishing up.

Sudden Sam wrote:The SOB brought the Tigers back and handed Alabama one of the hardest to take losses I've ever had to watch.

How did that happen, anyway?

Maybe when Auburn went into, oh, say... A HURRY UP SPREAD?

How could that have possibly worked against SABAN'S DEFENSE?

You're allowed to throw deep in the spread.

Papa Willie wrote:Also - if Oregon were to start getting in a lot of 3 & out situations - their defense will be beyond fucked because they don't know what it's like to play tired.

Because of the fact that their offense scores so quickly, the Oregon defense has typically been on the field longer than their offense. Try again.

Papa Willie wrote:Also - if Oregon were to start getting in a lot of 3 & out situations - their defense will be beyond fucked because they don't know what it's like to play tired.

Uhm...


take a big guess which defense has spent more time on the field -- Oregon or Bama?

Go ahead and take a big ol' guess.

You know, since Chip took the reigns, Oregon has finished dead last in TOP in at least one season, right?

Best conditioned defense in all of CFB.