T1B

The Tampa Tribune reports that Brunette killed herself with her Smith & Wesson .380 handgun. She bought the gun about six months before taking her own life. Brunette was locked inside her sedan car when she was found. The Tribune article states that she had a history of alcohol abuse and had recently broken up with her boyfriend. She is now one of the 22 vets that kill themselves everyday.

Roach wrote:She's cute, but how does 22-vets-per-day compare with the general population, or all whites, or all poor?

According to ASFP it is near the national average.

Bummer that anyone, especially vets, have the problem. Well may there may be some message board posters . . .

You called?

sin,

Tardowen

As tragic as that story is, I'm still spankin' it to that pic tonight.



RACK the (sexy lady) troops!

Roach wrote: According to ASFP it is near the national average.

How you figure? Assuming the 22 a day is accurate, that works out to 36 suicides per 100,000 vets. That's damn near three times the average.

R-Jack wrote:

Roach wrote: According to ASFP it is near the national average.

How you figure? Assuming the 22 a day is accurate, that works out to 36 suicides per 100,000 vets. That's damn near three times the average.

No shit. Always has been an issue..I live the vets PTSD thing every day. Two of my boys are affected by it. They went through the transitioning back problems while they were still in, one spent over 10K on strippers and booze in two months...lost a pretty good girlfriend in the process. They both had issues after they mustered out, lot of drinking, doing some pills and blow ..a couple of behavior episodes that were pretty frighting.

They both knew people that were KIA after they left. They both knew guys who killed themselves, went to their funerals with over 200 other guys..good to get them reconnected with those other people. Their platoon Lt paid for their hotels. I went to one of them, I wanted to meet the guys..they were great kids.

They both have trigger times now, they seem to be getting less, one of them connected with the parents of one of his buddies who was KIA in Afghanistan after 2 tours in Iraq,and he is working through the issues that come up with that. I somewhat get the connection they have with these guys, living on the edge like that with adrenalin pounding through your veins for hours a day when you are shooting it out with those rags, you develop a real bond with the others.

I have a similar bond with guys I was in the fire service with, you depended on each other to keep your ass safe, but that was nothing like being in a situation where some mother fucker is trying to kill you and your buddies. I stood it off with a dude that was going to rob and shoot the place up next to where I was, he was looking at me holding a 9mm down by my leg,and he had a silenced .45 in his hand under his coat, he just keep walking to the next store and robbed them, but you talk about jamming a needle full of adrenalin in you arm, your senses are absolutely heightened beyond belief, you mind is going a hundred miles an hour, completely checking the situation off.

One of the boys told me he missed that adrenalin high, that no drug he did even came close, and I agreed. I know when they are stressing, I have talked with them pretty bluntly about it, and they have so much to live for, I have spent some late nights with them, I have went and hauled them home when they got too hammered to drive They still drink a fair amount, no much more than I did at that age, hit some weed now and then, but pretty much go away from the opiates and other crap. They get together as a family and with some other guys, go shooting and bond over that. They both have some young dogs they got in the last year and a half, not "service " dogs, but just good buddies that love those guys beyond belief. I pick both of the dogs up in the afternoons, then take them back to them when they get home from work, the dogs flip out to see them, I get to have a few minutes each day with them to get a fell on their outlook...just a good connection.

I have buddies that have the same issues from Nam..just wish they had other ways to deal with it.

I have always been somewhat ambivalent, if not downright skeptical, of PTSD as it has been bandied about in conversations with vets and their friends/families. I am not suggesting that it is not an actual condition, but rather the prevalence of it seems somewhat overblown or misused by those affected by it. It comes across as baldly spurious as does every homeless person claiming to be a Vietnam vet who suffered so terribly overseas that he now lives on the street. If as many troops were over there as is claimed by the panhandlers or war story veterans, there'd have been scant room for actual natives to move for the crowded conditions in the jungle. In the same way, to claim PTSD for every ill and behavior is to say that people are largely looking for reasons to not exercise self control.

Derron, I am not saying that your kin are faking it or shining on some trauma from their time spent in Iraq/A-stan, but that the vast majority of troops who claim it are no more suffering from combat related mental stresses than all those Agent Orange homeless vets are begging for money on the curb. Certainly, there are those who have experienced debilitating horrors that relive themselves repeatedly under certain conditions. But like Vietnam, the actual number of combat troops who actually went out and conducted actual combat operations are far and few between. The rest-- possibly on the order of 500:1 --were in the rear conducting desktop operations in laptop defilaide.

I recognize that personality type also plays a role in how a person deals with psychological and emotional trauma. People join the service for any number of reasons, most of which do not include an actual desire to go into combat. Thus, when their skills are required of them in a foreign land under the perceived danger of random events involving death dealing implements like rockets, VEBIEDs, and green-on-blue attacks, some people mentally fold their tents and go into a psychological and emotional bunker. Others live for the adrenaline and discover it cannot be replicated anywhere else outside a combat zone. And still others assess the risk and recognize that in terms of carnage, no place on earth can protect you from harm or danger, so why worry about that which you can't control? Obviously, each of these types of people-- and there are many, many more across the spectrum of human experience --deals differently with the stress of combat.

In this day and age where therapy or pills are prescribed for any and all issues, PTSD is just the latest in psycho-babble to cushion a coddled generation who has been told repeatedly that they are the center of the universe. For the first time in their lives they have been exposed to the shocking reality that not everybody thinks like we do and our values are not their values. It just seems to me that in many cases vets need to sack up and get on with their life and stop looking for reasons why they shouldn't.

Hope your boys get better, Duhrron.

Rooster wrote: In this day and age where therapy or pills are prescribed for any and all issues, PTSD is just the latest in psycho-babble to cushion a coddled generation who has been told repeatedly that they are the center of the universe. For the first time in their lives they have been exposed to the shocking reality that not everybody thinks like we do and our values are not their values. It just seems to me that in many cases vets need to sack up and get on with their life and stop looking for reasons why they shouldn't.

Wow, you are one fucked up dude. Do you spout this nonsense in real life?

Screw_Michigan wrote:

Rooster wrote: In this day and age where therapy or pills are prescribed for any and all issues, PTSD is just the latest in psycho-babble to cushion a coddled generation who has been told repeatedly that they are the center of the universe. For the first time in their lives they have been exposed to the shocking reality that not everybody thinks like we do and our values are not their values. It just seems to me that in many cases vets need to sack up and get on with their life and stop looking for reasons why they shouldn't.

Wow, you are one fucked up dude. Do you spout this nonsense in real life?

Wait a minute. Are you suggesting that this board is not real life?

What specifically do you take issue with, Screwy? My assertion that pills are over-prescribed or that PTSD is a vague medical term which encapsulates nearly anything? I don't dispute that what was formerly known as combat related stress or combat fatigue are real mental problems, I just think that they are being over-diagnosed and in my non-medically trained opinion, because it is indicative of our times. Its' medical equivalent for children and teenagers in terms of its' over-diagnosis would be ADD/ADHD and the subsequent prescription of mood and energy altering drugs. In other words, what is simply normal behavior for growing kids is now seen as abnormal and must be given a medical name, diagnosis, and treatment.

Combat related stresses are universal to soldiers, but I would take issue with the labeling of such normal mental and psychological mechanisms as something needing intensive counseling treatment and oftentimes an accompanying drug regimen. Indeed, now the public at large has co-opted the term and is now claiming PTSD for everything from car accidents to bad marriage experiences. In turn, it becomes a victimization of individuals wherein the self control we would normally expect of someone who is responsible enough to conduct dangerous operations in a combat zone and be expected not to go all My Lai on the locals, these individuals are now labeled PTSD sufferers and so when they act out excuses are made.

Case in point: The young Marine held in a Mexican prison was arrested for reckless driving yesterday. He had already been given the label PTSD sufferer by his family and lawyer and now he behaves badly. How much you bet when it goes to court that that diagnosis is brought up in defense? Again, it isn't onerous on these individuals to expect them to get on with their life and fit in with society.

As they said when I was in the Army, got a pay problem? Go see your squad leader. Got a personal problem? Go see the chaplain. And I might add, rub some dirt on it.

I just think that they are being over-diagnosed and in my non-medically trained opinion, because it is indicative of our times.

That is almost certainly the case. The shitbag who murdered Chris Kyle was a prime example. He never saw a nano-second of combat but was diagnosed with PTSD.

It's the kind of lazy, half-assed bullshit I expect from the VA. "Yeah, looks like PTSD. Here's some pills and fuck you very much. NEXT!!!"

mvscal wrote:

I just think that they are being over-diagnosed and in my non-medically trained opinion, because it is indicative of our times.

That is almost certainly the case. The shitbag who murdered Chris Kyle was a prime example. He never saw a nano-second of combat but was diagnosed with PTSD.

It's the kind of lazy, half-assed bullshit I expect from the VA. "Yeah, looks like PTSD. Here's some pills and fuck you very much. NEXT!!!"

Exactly. A prime example of this is the current scandal with the VA here in Phoenix, which has come under fire for dozens of instances of this very thing, or worse if possible, simply ignoring the vets with real issues and shuffling them through a system of bogus paperwork, keeping them waiting for help for months, even years.

The lawsuit(s) should prove interesting to follow.

mvscal wrote:He never saw a nano-second of combat...

Rooster wrote:
.

In this day and age where therapy or pills are prescribed for any and all issues, PTSD is just the latest in psycho-babble to cushion a coddled generation who has been told repeatedly that they are the center of the universe. For the first time in their lives they have been exposed to the shocking reality that not everybody thinks like we do and our values are not their values. It just seems to me that in many cases vets need to sack up and get on with their life and stop looking for reasons why they shouldn't.

Both of my boys went to the VA and tried their "cures" for PTSD. They gave them medication, and the boys said all that did was really want to make you kill your self,and did nothing to help them deal with it. The flushed the meds downs the shitter and never touched them again. They get more relief from talking with and hanging out with other vets who have been there, probably drinking a bit more than they should and hitting the bong a bit.

Since I am not a combat veteran, I cannot relate to the absolute terror they must have felt when one of their platoon buddies gets whacked by some raghead, and they have to fight it out with them to go recover his body and take it back to the camp. That shit has to fuck anybody up. Any time you are in a situation where you have to exchange fire with somebody trying to kill you , and you do not know if your life is over is 5 seconds, or your buddies life is, and what happens after that ?? Kill or be killed is a pretty tough way to go about your week.

With all due respect to your take, your allegation that the vets need to "sack up " and get on with life is complete bullshit. If you have been in combat and have a take on this, then tell me to go fuck myself. These boys and their friends, and I know a lot of them, are getting on with their life, they have went to school, got degrees, have good jobs, getting married and are truly productive members of society. The are hardly looking for reason to not do any of that. They want no more than the rest of us do, they just have some mental baggage and will have for their life. There are people who suck it for all it is. The vast majority of them are truly affected.

Since I am a deranged gun nut, I study situations, and watch video and take training. Lots of training. Very realistic training. A few days after a range scenario, I apparently had a flashback of some kind, I thought they were 3 Mexican gangsters in a 1985 4 door Buick in front of my house on the road with AK 47's getting ready to shoot my house up. I woke up screaming, jump out of bed, trying to get my AR out of the gun safe next to my bed. My wife wakes up of course and is just yelling at me repeatedly until I snapped out of it. Cold sweat , shaking, could not sleep the rest of the night. Same scenario we had ran during the training situation. That made me as believer.

Rooster wrote:W

Case in point: The young Marine held in a Mexican prison was arrested for reckless driving yesterday. He had already been given the label PTSD sufferer by his family and lawyer and now he behaves badly. How much you bet when it goes to court that that diagnosis is brought up in defense? Again, it isn't onerous on these individuals to expect them to get on with their life and fit in with society.

My son came back from Afghanistan and with in 2 weeks had dumped his girl friend, was convinced this stripper in North Carolina was his true love, and was dropping $ 500 a night on her and was pretty much blithering drunk every night. Enough that Mom and I hopped a plane and went back there for 4 days to try and get him back on track. Took a pretty good intervention, got him going the right way, he got out in 2 months after that. I flew back again and we drove straight through home. Not the only guy in the unit that happened too. Even after they locked them down on base for 5 days after getting back for Afghanistan.

When you were in the Army, were you in combat ??

I am, uncharacteristically, speechless.

Derron, first of all, props to your boys for what they accomplished and came back from. My diatribe was not a shot across your bow, but rather the against the general slap-dash application of a vague medical term to people who otherwise haven't experienced anything more frightening than going to work downtown in any major city and being in close proximity to gangs and lowlifes who reside a couple of blocks away. Of course there are individuals who have seen things which require actual one-on-one therapy for which they, by themselves, are unequied to handle. But, but this does not apply to the general population of servicemen and women.

My experience is not as a ground pounder-- which I was once upon a time --but as a helicopter pilot. Admittedly, during the first Gulf War there wasn't much action, particularly as I was in a MAST unit (medical transport), but then again, largely there wasn't much action for anybody except for a scant few who got caught in the wrong place and wrong time. It was an ass whupping from start to finish, 100 hours long. However, as the GWOT developed, I went overseas to A-stan in a civilian capacity supporting the military in a variety of ways for four years. During that time there have been plenty of hair raising moments.

That being said, other than being hyper-vigilant while at home, I don't suffer from any particular issues. At least that is what my wife tells me. I am by nature, a happy-go-lucky individual who tends not to look too deeply into matters, but lets life slide off my back and look forward to the next adventure. I will say this however, there is a thrill of adrenaline that comes with gambling with your life-- regardless how scant the risk is --that you can't get anywhere else but in combat, save perhaps, police work. At least that has been my experience. The pull to go back into combat has been relentless for me, because everything else job-wise is dull and boring. YMMV.

No, the very idea--let alone action--of stomping around in some foreign land which has done nothing whatever to the U.S. (or anyone else), bullying, shooting, arresting and bagging--and then torturing and imprisoning--while destroying that nation's social structure, economy and future...is evil.

Anyone who went and engaged in the PNAC orgy of Imperialist conquest deserves more than whatever suffering they've entailed. They're evil, not just moronic.

Stop pretending that Iraq or Afghanistan had anything to do with the obvious inside job of 9/11. Or that America had any justification whatever to invade and destroy these nations. This has been an act of evil that is unprecedented. It doesn't matter if your kids are chasing whores, or if you're some calloused garbage like babs, or even some dead total sociopath fraud like Chris Kyle...you're faking it and need to WAKE UP!!!

OCMike-Porter, quit being such a prick, your act has worn thin.

LTS...Stay in your lane.

Moving Bowel wrote:I am, uncharacteristically, speechless.

With any luck, uncharacteristic will become the norm.

Derron wrote:A few days after a range scenario, I apparently had a flashback of some kind, I thought they were 3 Mexican gangsters in a 1985 4 door Buick in front of my house on the road with AK 47's getting ready to shoot my house up. I woke up screaming, jump out of bed, trying to get my AR out of the gun safe next to my bed. My wife wakes up of course and is just yelling at me repeatedly until I snapped out of it. Cold sweat , shaking, could not sleep the rest of the night. Same scenario we had ran during the training situation. That made me as believer.

You gave yourself ptsd after a day at the range? Might want to dail that back a bit.

Rooster wrote:Derron, first of all, props to your boys for what they accomplished and came back from. My diatribe was not a shot across your bow, but rather the against the general slap-dash application of a vague medical term to people who otherwise haven't experienced anything more frightening than going to work downtown in any major city and being in close proximity to gangs and lowlifes who reside a couple of blocks away. Of course there are individuals who have seen things which require actual one-on-one therapy for which they, by themselves, are unequied to handle. But, but this does not apply to the general population of servicemen and women.

And not taken as a shot at all, and I agree with your take on it...once something becomes vogue, the hangers on pickup on it to gravy train it.

That being said, other than being hyper-vigilant while at home, I don't suffer from any particular issues. At least that is what my wife tells me. I am by nature, a happy-go-lucky individual who tends not to look too deeply into matters, but lets life slide off my back and look forward to the next adventure. I will say this however, there is a thrill of adrenaline that comes with gambling with your life-- regardless how scant the risk is --that you can't get anywhere else but in combat, save perhaps, police work. At least that has been my experience. The pull to go back into combat has been relentless for me, because everything else job-wise is dull and boring. YMMV.

My boys too have that ability to let things slide, but both have been in situations where they faced death themselves and got out of it by fighting their way out of it, and saw others killed. They had to go out and find the persons responsible for those situations and deal with them. One of them was involved in a situation that dealt with neutralizing some individuals who had previously killed 5 other Marines in an attack. The attention that followed was what bothered him more than the situation itself.

They say there is a feel and pull for the brotherhood they felt during their deployments, the mental factors as they prepared for every 3rd day patrols, getting out there and then watching each others asses. They say they never felt more alive than in those moments. The combat was terrifying they said, and nothing they ever want to repeat, but the reconnections with their brothers in arms is very important to them, and seems very therapaputic (sp fuck me) to them.

BSmack wrote:

Derron wrote:A few days after a range scenario, I apparently had a flashback of some kind, I thought they were 3 Mexican gangsters in a 1985 4 door Buick in front of my house on the road with AK 47's getting ready to shoot my house up. I woke up screaming, jump out of bed, trying to get my AR out of the gun safe next to my bed. My wife wakes up of course and is just yelling at me repeatedly until I snapped out of it. Cold sweat , shaking, could not sleep the rest of the night. Same scenario we had ran during the training situation. That made me as believer.

You gave yourself ptsd after a day at the range? Might want to dail that back a bit.

What are you some kind of psychologist ??? Where the fuck did I say PTSD ?? And you don't give your self PTSD...I said a flash back. I have those of varying kinds. During my illness when I was close to death, I knew I was dying. It scared the fuck out of me... and something inside said you are not ready for this. Physical or psychological..there was a very strange and scary feeling at that moment. Nothing I ever want to experience again.

I will go back to the range and run scenarios, I will watch hours of YouTube combat footage because I want to at least see what those guys went through. I want to have a small elemental understanding as much as an outside observer could..when I was put in the potential kill or be killed situation, the focus and will to win is amazing.

just

Wow! He really cares! About what I have no idea.

~Rodney

Rack this thread.