Poptart, serious question

[trev]

Jay asked and I am really wanting your answer.

So which version is the true "Word of God" version. Also, what makes the version of the Book you adhere to better or more true than all the rest.

When did God specify this exact copy.

Please specify this in exact scripture. Show us where He prefers King James, Old Testament, New Testament or any of the other variants out there.

I was raised Catholic and had got married in a Lutheran church and left that when we encountered a corrupt pastor. I remember liking the Lutheran version of the bible because it seemed easier to understand. But, I'm wondering about the above question. And does the new testament trump the old?

????? So confusing......

[poptart]

Hi trev,

I count 7 questions or "issues" to be dealt with there, and understand that these questions are not really the kind that you can just breeze by with a quick answer to.
To answer them properly, it takes some explanation, and honestly, maybe a LOT of explanation.
And most likely follow-up questions and answers to the answers I've given.

This does not work well in a forum like this -- where we're basically just here to insult each other. :)

So I'm going to take the issues one at a time, and your last question hits at exactly WHY we need a Bible.
So I will answer your last question first.


1. Does the New Testament trump the Old?


John 5:39 (Jesus speaking)
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.


Jesus said this to the Pharisees, who were the greatest and most elite followers of the Old Testament.
They followed God's Laws the very best and they showed tremendous devotion to Old Testament Scripture.
They had every appearance of being God's best people.

The entire Old Testament points to a coming Messiah.
Even today, the Jews await the Messiah -- because they do not recognize that Jesus is the Promised Messiah.

So here in John 5 that I referenced, the Pharisees had the Messiah (Jesus) standing right in front of them, and yet they hated Him and wanted Him dead.
Jesus looked at them and told them plainly that the Old Testament which they show such reverence for is speaking of -----> HIM, and that HE is their eternal life.

That's right.
The entire Bible, Old and New Testament is speaking of Jesus Christ.
Literally every page speaks of Him.
He IS the Word.


Matthew 5:17 (Jesus speaking)
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets (the Old Testament): I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.


John 20:31
But these (Scripture) are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


The Old Testament was promising that the Christ would come. It was shadowing Him and preparing the way for Him.
The New Testament testifies that this person Jesus, surely IS the promised Christ.

He absolutely IS the Christ and one better make no mistake about it.
He proved Himself fully.

[Goober McTuber]

Yeah, pops, which of these Bibles do you prefer?

http://www.kencollins.com/bible/bible-t2.htm

[poptart]

Gobbler, Jsc, take a chill pill.
Seriously.

Hi trev,

I count 7 questions or "issues" to be dealt with there, and understand that these questions are not really the kind that you can just breeze by with a quick answer to.
To answer them properly, it takes some explanation, and honestly, maybe a LOT of explanation.
And most likely follow-up questions and answers to the answers I've given.

This does not work well in a forum like this -- where we're basically just here to insult each other. :)

So I'm going to take the issues one at a time, and your last question hits at exactly WHY we need a Bible.
So I will answer your last question first.

Are you people idiots?

[Jay in Phoenix]

The poptart is gifted at obsfucating his answers. He takes a direct question and turns it into misdirection.

Okay, bad Reggie White quotes aside, pops refuses to answer any question as asked. If asked to differentiate between the new and old Testanents, he chooses to embrace both books, even though they are significantly different. As long as Jesus is mentioned, for pops, it's all the same thing.

But I would like nothing more than to have him prove that statement wrong.

So again, I ask in all seriousness, which exact Book do you adhere to poptart, and why?

What is it that separates or defines one from the others?

Let's go with King James vs. New Testament as example. They are both equally embraced by adherents, so which one holds the true Word?

I realize you avoid multiple questions pops, but that is really just three parts of a single one.

You're on the clock.

[Goober McTuber]

Let's go with King James vs. New Testament as example. They are both equally embraced by adherents, so which one holds the true Word?

That doesn't make any sense. The New Testament is part of the King James version of the Bible, which contains both the Old testament and the New Testament.

You fucking heathen.

[Jay in Phoenix]

Let's go with King James vs. New Testament as example. They are both equally embraced by adherents, so which one holds the true Word?

That doesn't make any sense. The New Testament is part of the King James version of the Bible, which contains both the Old testament and the New Testament.

You fucking heathen.

Dammit Goobs, that was a trick question. Oh well, I guess you could say, "Ooh heathen is a place on Earth."

[Jay in Phoenix]

One more point, just to avoid some semantics. It would be accurate to use the word translation, as opposed to version when it comes to the Bible. But there are literally dozens of various translations and therein lies a serious problem. Languages just don't accurately translate from one to another. Often, the differences can completely transform the original intent and meaning.

So this is the essence of my question. With so many variant language interpretations, especially over time, which translation is the one true intent of God? As I have read multiple editions, it is readily apparent the change in languages can significantly impact meaning.

So which is it poptart?

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

King James vs. New Testament

They are not exclusive to each other.

[mvscal]

That's right.
The entire Bible, Old and New Testament is speaking of Jesus Christ.
Literally every page speaks of Him.
He IS the Word.

...or so you believe. That opinion is hardly universal in acceptance. As you have pointed out, the Jews came to a very different conclusion based on the same books.

Books...written originally in classical Hebrew and Aramaic. They were later translated into Koine Greek and then the New Testament was written in the same Greek dialect. This was brought west and translated into Latin. The Latin Vulgate Bible became the definitive "Word" in western Christendom for the next 1,100 years. The cultural influence of the LVB cannot be overstated. It is the bedrock of Western culture. It was eventually supplanted by the French Catholic Bible and the King James Bible in English. I would rate the King James version as one of the greatest works of literature ever written in the English language. The ongoing string of modern 'translations' of the KJV are dreary, trite and artless.

Bottom line: Are you trying to tell me that nothing has gotten lost or garbled in translation over these thousands of years? I have to assume you have some degree of fluency in Korean. You certainly know how difficult it is to translate certain words, phrases and idioms into a different language.

[poptart]

pops refuses to answer any question as asked.

LOL

You're lying AGAIN.

Jay, Jsc, Gobbler, if you people can not READ, I think we're done here.

Again...

Hi trev,

I count 7 questions or "issues" to be dealt with there, and understand that these questions are not really the kind that you can just breeze by with a quick answer to.
To answer them properly, it takes some explanation, and honestly, maybe a LOT of explanation.
And most likely follow-up questions and answers to the answers I've given.

This does not work well in a forum like this -- where we're basically just here to insult each other. :)

So I'm going to take the issues one at a time, and your last question hits at exactly WHY we need a Bible.
So I will answer your last question first.

Read it a few more times until you realize how stupid you look.

Read it.
Can you READ?

What am I supposedly ducking?

Bottom line: Are you trying to tell me that nothing has gotten lost or garbled in translation over these thousands of years?

This goes to other questions in trev's post, which I will be glad to respond to... one-by-one.

If trev has no follow-up question or response to the question (one of seven) which I replied to, I will be glad to move on to another of the questions.

[mvscal]

:|

[poptart]

1. Does the New Testament trump the Old?


John 5:39 (Jesus speaking)
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.


Jesus said this to the Pharisees, who were the greatest and most elite followers of the Old Testament.
They followed God's Laws the very best and they showed tremendous devotion to Old Testament Scripture.
They had every appearance of being God's best people.

The entire Old Testament points to a coming Messiah.
Even today, the Jews await the Messiah -- because they do not recognize that Jesus is the Promised Messiah.

So here in John 5 that I referenced, the Pharisees had the Messiah (Jesus) standing right in front of them, and yet they hated Him and wanted Him dead.
Jesus looked at them and told them plainly that the Old Testament which they show such reverence for is speaking of -----> HIM, and that HE is their eternal life.

That's right.
The entire Bible, Old and New Testament is speaking of Jesus Christ.
Literally every page speaks of Him.
He IS the Word.


Matthew 5:17 (Jesus speaking)
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets (the Old Testament): I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.


John 20:31
But these (Scripture) are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


The Old Testament was promising that the Christ would come. It was shadowing Him and preparing the way for Him.
The New Testament testifies that this person Jesus, surely IS the promised Christ.

He absolutely IS the Christ and one better make no mistake about it.
He proved Himself fully.

I took time to give her a pretty lengthy answer to one of her questions.
And as I CLEARLY SAID, I will take them one-by-one.

With your attitudes, you people really don't deserve to have me take the time to give you such responses.

You most likely did not even read my answer.


'tardville

[trev]

I was satisfied with Pop's answer and appreciate his taking the time to answer it. I have no follow up question. I took it to mean, that neither the New or Old Testament trump each other. I'm enjoying all the religion discussion threads. I'm still agnostic, in case you were wondering. One of my best friends is like Poptart as far as Christianity. She uses certain times to contribute bible verses to our conversations and issues we discuss. I'm not offended by her. She doesn't push it on me or get mad that I don't swallow the info and come around to her beliefs.

[War Wagon]

I would rate the King James version as one of the greatest works of literature ever written in the English language.

Agreed.

No matter what you believe or don't believe, it should be required reading. Cover to cover, more than once.

I have many editions that I consider family heirlooms and priceless.

The ongoing string of modern 'translations' of the KJV are dreary, trite and artless.

No shit, they are like bar bands trying to cover Stairway to Heaven.

[poptart]

I was satisfied with Pop's answer and appreciate his taking the time to answer it. I have no follow up question. I took it to mean, that neither the New or Old Testament trump each other.

You can't have one Testament without the Other.

Within the OT, there are many Laws, etc. that God gave to the Israelites.
Sometimes people say silly things like, "Look, the Old Testament said you have to... stone your children, or whatever... so why don't you follow THAT?"

Such comments from people just show that they really don't even have the rudimentary understanding of the Bible.


Matthew 5:17 (Jesus speaking)
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets (the Old Testament): I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.


Jesus Christ is the complete and eternal fulfillment of all of the Old Testament.
We are no longer bound to keep the Laws of the Old Testament.

As I concluded...

The Old Testament was promising that the Christ would come. It was shadowing Him and preparing the way for Him.
The New Testament testifies that this person Jesus, surely IS the promised Christ.

Both Testaments are necessary for us to see.

So which version is the true "Word of God" version. Also, what makes the version of the Book you adhere to better or more true than all the rest.

When did God specify this exact copy.

I will now move on to answer these three questions within my next post.

[poptart]

So which version is the true "Word of God" version. Also, what makes the version of the Book you adhere to better or more true than all the rest.

When did God specify this exact copy

First, the "The translations must all be wrong and/or FUBAR" take is a very silly and desperate one, indeed.
But honestly the non-believers have not much to hold on to, so that grasp at this.


Imagine if Matthew, Mark, Luke and John could come back to life and come to the year 2015.
Then they were given one of our Bibles to look at.

Do people really think they'd be like, "WHAT is all this crap? We said...

God is NOT almighty.
Jesus is NOT His Son and Lord.
Jesus is NOT the Christ.
He was NOT conceived by the Holy Spirit.
He was NOT born of the virgin Mary.
Jesus was NOT crucified, dead and buried.
He did NOT rise from the dead.
He did NOT ascend into heaven... and on and on.

You've translated the whole thing wrong, DAMN YOU!!!


LOL



Truth is, the "The translations must be wrong or confused" is completely silly.

Of course there are translation "issues," and I will discuss that in my next post, but the OVERALL MEANING is not lost in translation, by any stretch of one's warped imagination.


Okay... on to finish with these three questions in my next post...

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

In my Literary Power Rankings, I've got the KJV slotted somewhere between Everyone Poops and Green Eggs and Ham.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

...but definitely ahead of "Brave New World." What a load of trash.

[poptart]

So which version is the true "Word of God" version. Also, what makes the version of the Book you adhere to better or more true than all the rest.

When did God specify this exact copy

It would take a VERY long post to answer this properly, but this board has not the attention span for it, so I am going to cut some corners while addressing it.


God spoke this through the Prophet Isaiah, as recored in the Old Testament...

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.


Then we have this in the New Testament, as spoken by the Apostle John...

John 1:1, 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



Jesus Christ IS the Word.

He defeated death and IS alive.

He IS God's preserved Word.


There is more to the answer.
Next post...

[Jay in Phoenix]

I took the time to give her a pretty lengthy answer to one of her questions.
And as I CLEARLY SAID, I will take them one-by-one.

With your attitudes, you people really don't deserve to have me take the time to give you such responses.

You most likely did not even read my answer.


'tardville

Thanks for proving my point 'tart. You sort of answered a question but not the main question. Then you go to the " you're not worthy of my answer" card. Outstanding.

I have read every word you've written, but you're still ducking. If you can't answer, just say so.

Poptart, you seem to dish out insults and smack pretty well, but your little knickers get all twisty when the tables get turned. If you can't take it, don't partake.

Now then, if you have the fortitude to act like a man, answer the one basic question that has been asked several times now. Which translation do you believe to be the true translation and why?

One final thing, if you don't understand the basics of language, then the art of translation is lost to you. If you seriously believe the overall meaning of certain phrases or names or events hasn't been changed or lost over time and cultures, then you are the one deluding yourself. This is not to say the essence of the Word has been corrupted, but just enough has since the first archaic writings. And, that changes a lot.

Ignore this to your hearts content, it doesn't change it as fact.

[poptart]

Thanks for proving my point 'tart. You sort of answered a question but not the main question

Shut up and take a seat.

[Jay in Phoenix]

Fucking coward.

[smackaholic]

One more point, just to avoid some semantics.

The truf comes out.

Jay is an anti-semantic.

Rot in hell you racist bastid!

[War Wagon]

The KJV of The Bible is unreadable

and then, after some lamentable babbling...

I've read it cover to cover

Must be your wife has a good job, because you'd go hungry with such court room foolishness.

You don't seem to go hungry often.

[Jay in Phoenix]

One more point, just to avoid some semantics.

The truf comes out.

Jay is an anti-semantic.

Rot in hell you racist bastid!

Damn you ' holic, that just caused a genuine spit take!

Good job.

[smackaholic]

In my Literary Power Rankings, I've got the KJV slotted somewhere between Everyone Poops and Green Eggs and Ham.

Anything Dr Seuss is head and shoulders above that superstitious mumb jumbo.

Dr Seuss should have done a bible translation. It would have been awesome.

[trev]

'holic and wags made me LOL

I think Pop's answer to which is the true translation is nothing is translated perfectly, but the overall jist of it is still there. Not unlike the game telephone, where words get skewed, but there is a smidge of truth somewhere down the line.

[poptart]

So which version is the true "Word of God" version. Also, what makes the version of the Book you adhere to better or more true than all the rest.

When did God specify this exact copy

Pity that Jay had to interrupt with his nonsense, but so it goes.

The rest of the answer...


I prefer the King James version, and I will comment more on that as we go.
I prefer it fairly strongly, yet I could take nearly any newer version (even though they are getting more and more corrupt) and go to China, for example, and use it to tell people the Gospel message -- and people WILL respond and be saved through that Word.

Even if every Bible on earth was destroyed, people like me would STILL write things down and relay God's Word to people -- and many people would respond and be saved.
In fact, everything WILL pass away, including the written Word that we have.
But THE WORD will live on eternally.

Jesus said this...

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

John 6:63
the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


Again...
God's preserved Word IS Jesus Christ, and not necessarily any written Word (which will all pass away) that we have .
God's Word is SPIRIT.



More answer to this question to come...

[poptart]

There are believers who are adamant and very dogmatic about the King James version being the ONLY true Word of God.
I understand where they are coming from, think they have many valid points, and am almost there -- but not quite.

Main reason being, I don't think they quite grasp what I posted above.

It is important, very.


Read it a few times and let it sink in.



More to come...

[Jay in Phoenix]

There you go poptart, you answered trev's question, was that so hard?

Of course, you've done nothing whatsoever to resolve your "opinion" about a flat Earth, which is what got this idiotic ball rolling in the first place. Dude, I do not question or mock your faith. We've talked seriously in the past regarding matters of faith and you know I embrace faith, I just don't take faith as fact. All bs aside, I respect your faith, it is your blind adherence to the fringe element that is so bizarre.

Like flat Earth. Preposterous.

Tell me something pops, do you understand how satellites work? What an orbit is? Why we live in a solar system and not a planet system? How a plane, ship or satellite can go from point A to point B and back to point A, AROUND the Earth? If the planet were flat, this would be impossible, yet it happens all the time.

[poptart]

So which version is the true "Word of God" version. Also, what makes the version of the Book you adhere to better or more true than all the rest.

When did God specify this exact copy

Continuing on...


I grappled with the question of "What EXACTLY is God's Word?"" for a long time.
Until what I posted above clicked in for me.

We tend to always think in PHYSICAL terms, but God is a spirit (John 4:24) and so is His Word, which is Jesus Christ.
Matthew 24:35, John 6:63 -- and others.

There are many reasons why we should use the King James Bible, imo.
It is the most accurate and best version.
All of the versions coming after it have used manuscripts which trace back to Alexandria Egypt.
And what the newer versions do (and they are getting progressively worse and more insidious) is diminish or completely eliminate important elements of doctrine.
They diminish Christ, they diminish God's omnipotence, and the diminish the blood.
They diminish many things.

It's not the least bit surprising that this has happened.
From the very beginning, it was satan's goal to break down God's Word.

Genesis 3:1 serpent speaking
Yea, hath God said?

Questioning the Word.
Diminishing it.

People are hopelessly corrupt from Adam, so of course we are going to produce corruptions of God's Word.

Even so, what we have within most all of the current Bibles are -----> the same overall basic things relayed to us.
Just using some different lingo, and with some thing diminished or eliminated.

But I would surely use the King James if I was you.

There you go poptart, you answered trev's question, was that so hard?

You are seriously worse than a child.

I said this from the beginning of the thread, clown.

Hi trev,

I count 7 questions or "issues" to be dealt with there, and understand that these questions are not really the kind that you can just breeze by with a quick answer to.
To answer them properly, it takes some explanation, and honestly, maybe a LOT of explanation.
And most likely follow-up questions and answers to the answers I've given.

This does not work well in a forum like this -- where we're basically just here to insult each other. :)

So I'm going to take the issues one at a time, and your last question hits at exactly WHY we need a Bible.
So I will answer your last question first.

What is wrong with you?

Tell me something pops, do you understand how satellites work? What an orbit is? Why we live in a solar system and not a planet system? How a plane, ship or satellite can go from point A to point B and back to point A, AROUND the Earth? If the planet were flat, this would be impossible, yet it happens all the time.

This is not the thread for that.
Take it to the Rod of God thread.

[mvscal]

In my Literary Power Rankings, I've got the KJV slotted somewhere between Everyone Poops and Green Eggs and Ham.

You might have actually even read the latter two.

[Jay in Phoenix]

Take it to the other thread? Why?

What difference does the thread title make?

Either finish what you started or just admit you are wrong. Where it happens is irrelevant.

Quit acting like a petulant little child and be accountable.

JFC.

[poptart]

This thread is about the Bible.

I set about answering trev's questions -- just as I said from the beginning that I would do, and just as you wanted.

Yet you've continued to cry and stomp your feet because I was somehow not doing it fast enough for you.
lol

Now you lob up 4 more questions and cry because they are not getting answered for you.


Seriously, dude.
Step away and get a grip.

[Rooster]

Translations in general deal with questions of proper syntax and linguistics. Would you say that the sentence "The cow over the fence did jump" is any more incorrect than "The cow jumped over the fence"? Both are valid examples of sentence structure, but one sounds better in our ear than the other. However, for many languages around the world, the first example is how the second version would be translated. So the same applies to the various biblical translations with the exceptions of finer points of theological issue which can be attributed to the body making the translation and their particular beliefs rather than any purposeful or intentional warping of meaning. All of which is not to say that the Bible cannot be taken out of context or mishandled, as is evidenced by both the Koran and the Book of Mormon according to most accepted mainstream Biblical scholars.

[Jay in Phoenix]

As you well know, threads go the way they go. No rules, no format. They shift and change constantly, so your avoidance is just silly and weak. I have said nothing about speed or a time frame, just simply asked you to follow up on the matter that started all this.

You ignore my acquiescence to your faith and continue to act like a baby.

Deflection will not work pops, so either put up or shut up.

Seriously dude, step back, take a much needed breath and quit your whining.

Be a man or tap out.

[trev]

I'm choking.

[Jay in Phoenix]

Holy fuck, rack the he'll out of that epic Scott!

Blessed be the JeSuess.

[BSmack]

I'm choking.

Probably from giving head. It will pass.