T1B

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:14 pm**

According to "The Daily Meal"

https://www.thedailymeal.com/drink/101- ... 017?page=1
https://www.thedailymeal.com/drink/101- ... erica-2017

Not sure why I posted this. Maybe just wanting to see Dins weigh in on why it's complete BS.

I've visited maybe half a dozen of these. Some don't have tasting rooms.

I get shipments twice a year from #2. I think 88 gets some hooch from #1, which is about 6 miles as the crow files from where grew up - but I've never been there.

So at least we know the top 2 are OK.

1. Ridge Vineyards, Cupertino, Calif.
2. Tablas Creek Vineyard, Paso Robles, Calif.
3. Corison Winery, St. Helena, Calif.
4. Au Bon Climat Winery, Santa Barbara, Calif.
5. Sine Qua Non, Oak View, Calif.
6. Smith-Madrone Vineyards and Winery, St. Helena, Calif.
7. DAOU, Paso Robles, Calif.
8. Barboursville Vineyards, Barboursville, Va.
9. Littorai Wines, Sebastopol, Calif.
10. Caymus Vineyards, Rutherford, Calif.
11. Quilceda Creek Vintners, Snohomish, Wash.
12. Calera Wine, Hollister, Calif.
13. Domaine Drouhin Oregon, Dayton, Ore.
14. Leonetti Cellar, Walla Walla, Wash.
15. Robert Sinskey Vineyards, Napa, Calif.
16. Cayuse Vineyards, Walla Walla, Wash.
17. Shafer Vineyards, Napa, Calif.
18. Macari Vineyards, Mattituck, N.Y.
19. Linden Vineyards, Linden, Va.
20. Heitz Cellar, St. Helena, Calif.
21. Schramsberg Vineyards, Calistoga, Calif.
22. Woodward Canyon Winery, Lowden, Wash.
23. Turley Wine Cellars, St. Helena and Templeton, Calif.
24. Bonny Doon Vineyard, Santa Cruz, Calif.
25. Qupé Winery, Los Olivos, Calif.
26. Forlorn Hope, Napa, Calif.
27. Matthiasson Winery, Napa, Calif.
28. Château Montelena Winery, Calistoga, Calif.
29. Andrew Will Winery, Vashon, Wash.
30. Chanin Wine Co., Los Alamos, Calif.
31. Saxum Vineyards, Paso Robles, Calif.
32. Stony Hill Vineyard, St. Helena, Calif.
33. Acorn Winery, Healdsburg, Calif.
34. Massican Winery, Calistoga, Calif.
35. Dunn Vineyards, Angwin, Calif.
36. Spottswoode Estate Vineyard & Winery, St. Helena, Calif.
37. Justin Vineyards and Winery, Paso Robles, Calif.
38. Duckhorn Vineyards, St. Helena, Calif.
39. Red Newt Cellars, Hector, N.Y.
40. Mount Eden Vineyards, Saratoga, Calif.
41. Tensley Wines, Los Olivos, Calif.
42. Boundary Breaks Vineyard, Lodi, N.Y.
43. Ken Wright Cellars, Carlton, Ore.
44. DeLille Cellars, Woodinville, Wash.
45. Andrew Murray Vineyards, Los Olivos, Calif.
46. Neyers Vineyards, St. Helena, Calif.
47. Sandhi Wines, Santa Barbara, Calif.
48. Dr. Konstantin Frank Vinifera Wine Cellars, Hammondsport, N.Y.
49. Beckmen Vineyards, Los Olivos, Calif.
50. Hanzell Vineyards, Sonoma, Calif.
51. Foxen Vineyard and Winery, Santa Maria, Calif.
52. Jaffurs Wine Cellars, Santa Barbara, Calif.
53. Chehalem Winery, Newberg, Ore.
54. Sandlands, Napa, Calif.
55. Inwood Estates Vineyards, Fredericksburg, Texas
56. Navarro Vineyards and Winery, Philo, Calif.
57. Michael Shaps Wineworks, Charlottesville, Va.
58. Arnot-Roberts, Healdsburg, Calif.
59. Vino Noceto, Plymouth, Calif.
60. Silverado Vineyards, Napa, Calif.
61. The Eyrie Vineyards, McMinnville, Ore.
62. Wind Gap Wines, Sebastopol, Calif.
63. Andis Wines, Plymouth, Calif.
64. Robert Mondavi Winery, St. Helena, Calif.
65. Patz & Hall, Sonoma, Calif.
66. Staglin Family Vineyard, Rutherford, Calif.
67. Keplinger Wines, Napa, Calif.
68. Favia Wines, Napa, Calif.
69. Pedroncelli Winery, Geyserville, Calif.
70. Bokisch Vineyards, Lodi, Calif.
71. Chateau Grand Traverse, Traverse City, Mich.
72. Tatomer Wines, Santa Ynez, Calif.
73. Kelly Fleming Wines, Calistoga, Calif.
74. Pheasant Ridge Winery, Lubbock, Texas
75. Black Ankle Vineyards, Mount Airy, Md.
76. Broc Cellars, Berkeley, Calif.
77. Ceritas Wines, Healdsburg, Calif.
78. Red Car Wine Company, Sebastopol, Calif.
79. Dragonette Cellars, Los Olivos, Calif.
80. Dolin Malibu Estate Vineyards, Malibu, Calif.
81. Fall Creek Vineyards, Tow, Texas
82. Château Ste. Michelle, Woodinville, Wash.
83. Shinn Estate Vineyard and Farmhouse, Mattituck, N.Y.
84. Charles Smith Wines, Walla Walla, Wash.
85. Va La Vineyards, Avondale, Pa.
86. Gruet Winery, Albuquerque, N.M.
87. Old Westminster Winery & Vineyard, Westminster, Md.
88. Antica Terra, Dundee, Ore.
89. Lang & Reed, St. Helena, Calif.
90. Callaghan Vineyards, Elgin, Ariz.
91. Marietta Cellars, Cloverdale, Calif.
92. Uvaggio, Napa, Calif.
93. Ravines Wine Cellars, Geneva, N.Y.
94. Jefferson Vineyards, Charlottesville, Va.
95. Ste. Chapelle Winery, Caldwell, Idaho
96. Castelli Vineyards, Sebastopol, Calif.
97. Brooks Winery, Amity, Ore.
98. Saintsbury, Napa, Calif.
99. Novelty Hill Winery, Woodinville, Wash.
100. Two Rivers, Grand Junction, Colo.
101. Sunset Meadow Vineyards, Goshen, Conn.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:15 pm**

Does the winery have to use their own grapes? There is a place outside of Albuquerque that doesn't grow a single grape of their own, but trucks them in right from the vines and makes pretty good reds.

We get a member shipments from at least two of these places, but as is the case with such lists tastes will vary.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:19 pm**

Left Seater wrote:Does the winery have to use their own grapes?

To tell you the truth, I don't know. I would imagine that to make the list they probably have to be an estate winery, that at least grows some of their own grapes. An "estate-bottled" wine has to come from grapes grown on the winery's property and bottled on the property as well. I know of some excellent wineries that don't grow any of their own grapes. They exist even in big wine growing areas like Napa and Sonoma.

Tablas Creek bottles mostly estate wines but they also produce some blends that are sourced from vineyards all over the Paso Robles area.

Posted: **Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:23 pm**

Out of the Oregon wineries listed, I believe 3 of them have some vineyard. Domain Drouhin has a pretty large vineyard probably around 100 acres, large for Oregon. I did some contracting work for them about 15 years ago, and it was a money sink for the people who hold the patent on Comudin. The others may have some smaller vineyards and some have none at all. There are a lot of vineyards in Oregon that have no winery with them. The cost for establish grapes is huge per acre, and the cost to establish a winery is even more. There is one vineyard / winery which recently sold for 30 million here. Some CA honk bought it for his hipster millennial kids to have a winery.

These vineyards usually contract with a winery to grow and harvest the grapes and just pick up a check, and a pretty nice check at that. I know one guy who has 50 acres of 25 year old vines and contracts it all out, all he has to do is shoot the elk who come over the fence and he picked up a check for around
$ 490,000 last year. The trend is that all these young millennials want to have a winery. They have no money,so they bootstrap buying some over run grapes from a vineyard, and rent space in wineries that are not at capacity, and bottle up some wine. They may not have the same source every year so the wine can really vary, but that is fairly common. They have a brand, but not a winery.

The "estate wines" all have a few rows / up to 5 acres of grapes at the winery. This way they roll the bought in grapes on the truck, they stop and snip off some grapes from the stock at the winery, toss them in the bins and there you have "estate wine". I saw the first truck load of pinot noir going down the road about 15 minutes ago. About 7 days early this year, but looks to be a good harvest season. I will be heading out to a local vineyard in a bit to do some brix testing and see where those are at, probably going to start on those in the next 3 days.

Posted: **Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:34 pm**

I don't know if the rules are maybe different in Oregon, or maybe there's a lot of cheating going on or some loopholes, but in California if the label says estate bottled they are certifying legally that the winery grew 100% of the grapes on land it owns or controls and that the winery crushed, fermented, finished, aged, and bottled the wine in a continuous process on the same property. Both the vineyard and winery must be located in the viticultural area that is stated on the label.

Posted: **Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:03 pm**

Are your "various gfs" racists fucks like you?

Posted: **Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:18 pm**

Moving Sale wrote:Are your "various gfs" racists fucks like you?

Get the fuck out of the wine thread you little ankle biting cocksucker since you have nothing to contribute.

Posted: **Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:22 pm**

Mikey wrote:I don't know if the rules are maybe different in Oregon, or maybe there's a lot of cheating going on or some loopholes, but in California if the label says estate bottled they are certifying legally that the winery grew 100% of the grapes on land it owns or controls and that the winery crushed, fermented, finished, aged, and bottled the wine in a continuous process on the same property. Both the vineyard and winery must be located in the viticultural area that is stated on the label.

I don't know Oregon's laws either, but most are in the same viticultural area, I think there are about 3 in the big wine country around my area. I have not been around the wine making side much, I have been on and still on the agronomic / growing side more, and after they leave the field I could give a shit until I pour it into a glass to drink it.

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:22 am**

Derron wrote:
Moving Sale wrote:Are your "various gfs" racists fucks like you?
Get the fuck out of the wine thread you little ankle biting cocksucker since you have nothing to contribute.

Calm down Derron, there's a winery on there for Tiny as well.

75. Black Ankle Vineyards, Mount Airy, Md.

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:53 am**

Goober McTuber wrote:
Derron wrote:
Moving Sale wrote:Are your "various gfs" racists fucks like you?
Get the fuck out of the wine thread you little ankle biting cocksucker since you have nothing to contribute.
Calm down Derron, there's a winery on there for Tiny as well.

75. Black Ankle Vineyards, Mount Airy, Md.

Well my bad. I was looking for MD 20/20 as something suitable for his lack of taste and went right past his name sake. Thanks for noticing that.

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:33 pm**

Mikey wrote:Maybe just wanting to see Dins weigh in on why it's complete BS.

I've got a couple reasons:

1) How many people are actually qualified to comment on the best of the sheer numbers of wineries out there? I'd guess not many. Maybe Paul Gregutt, and a handful of others.

B - Chateau St Michelle? While one of the biggest wineries in the country (and the world's largest producer of reisling) do make some nice high-end wines, they mostly produce low-end drek.

III. When multiple Oregon wineries make this list, and Argyle isn't one of them, it becomes suspect. They routinely rack up 96+ scores on their sparkling wines.

Although the top of the list seems pretty solid, Virginia crap aside. Napa is ridiculously well represented, to the surprise of no one.

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:43 pm**

I've never heard of most of the voters either.

I read John Tilson's blog pretty regularly. He's been writing a wine blog since decades before there were any wine blogs.

http://www.undergroundwineletter.com/

He has some interesting things to say - a lot of good stuff if you go back into his archives.

Big fan of Ridge, Bonny Doon, Tablas Creek and a few others. Big fan of ingredient labeling.
Not a big fan of some of what's happened in Napa over the past 20 years or so, and not a big fan of the 100 point (actually more like a 14 point) scale.

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:06 pm**

Mikey wrote:I don't know if the rules are maybe different in Oregon, or maybe there's a lot of cheating going on or some loopholes, but in California if the label says estate bottled they are certifying legally that the winery grew 100% of the grapes on land it owns or controls and that the winery crushed, fermented, finished, aged, and bottled the wine in a continuous process on the same property. Both the vineyard and winery must be located in the viticultural area that is stated on the label.

Same rules in Oregon -- Derron made that shit up. If they have 5 acres (unusual, due to absolutely asinine land use laws), that's enough to make plenty (a few hundred cases, depending on yield), which would then be bottled up as "estate," which would presumably fetch more $$ from the tourons.

Derron wrote:There are a lot of vineyards in Oregon that have no winery with them.

Most of them, actually.

The cost for establish grapes is huge per acre

I don't have exact numbers (none of my business), but the winery I work both for and out of (which goes to one of your next points) just (re)planted their vineyard. Their case was a little different, since the old vineyard was decimated by phylloxera many years go, so they had to use rootstock to plant the vinifera on, rather than sticking some cuttings in the ground. They have about 22 acres planted (the first small harvest should be this year), and I think they're in it right around a million smackeroos.

and the cost to establish a winery is even more.

My buddy is still working on getting brick-and-mortar. He has almost everything he needs for equipment, but a sales-driven budget and stupid zoning rules are making it tough.

The trend is that all these young millennials want to have a winery.

And don't know a lick about winemaking, produce shitty wine, and go belly-up... so much for that 7 year vineyard contract.

rent space in wineries that are not at capacity, and bottle up some wine.

That's exactly what my buddy has done for 9 years now. Works out great, and his wines get rave reviews from the magazines (FWIW, but the high ratings sell wine). And they're happy to have him there, since he knows way more than their people do (OK, "their people" right now is at "one," which ain't nearly enough, which is why I've been helping them the last 2-3 weeks (and my buddy, too). Last year (and this), they rented out half the space to a large outfit who didn't have enough room in their building... huge pain in the ass. I guess the rent checks are worth it. And a couple of their intern chicks are decent looking.

They may not have the same source every year so the wine can really vary, but that is fairly common. They have a brand, but not a winery.

Not true. But "we" use the same vineyards every year, for the most part. The go-to in Walla Walla got an offer they couldn't refuse for the whole place, so he goes pretty much next door (and is a homer for the Oregon side of Walla Walla). If the largest distributor in the Northwest stocks your product in the largest retailer in the Northwest, I'd say you have a "winery," regardless of location.

I saw the first truck load of pinot noir going down the road about 15 minutes ago.

I saw my first load going towards Carlton while I was heading to the winery Tuesday (red, unkown varietel). My first thought was "dang, that's early, those can't be ripe." My second thought was "you BETTER not be turning down the driveway here (they have many custom-crush clients, a couple you've likely heard of) -- we've got bottling to do before harvest comes." Then finally, my third thought -- "probably coming from the Gorge somewhere. Rose' or bust!"

I will be heading out to a local vineyard in a bit to do some brix testing and see where those are at, probably going to start on those in the next 3 days.

The winemaker's mantra -- Let 'em hang, until something compels you to pick them. Although cracking 26 brix (sup 2015) makes for an awfully high ABV for pinot (I know of at least one that got de-alced which is pushing the definitions in some laws about de-alc, but I know nothing about that.

So far, things are looking good for 2017. Smoke-taint shouldn't be too bad for the stuff from the valleys.

Posted: **Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:15 pm**

Mikey wrote:not a big fan of the 100 point (actually more like a 14 point) scale.

Oh contrare, mon-swear.

A guy who worked at the winery I've been working for, worked a couple of harvests (poorly), took a couple of classes at community college, then decided to sink all his money into starting a label. Bought a shit-ton of grapes, mostly pinot, and let 'er buck. Apparently, he didn't realize that it takes a shit-ton of money to buy the packaging that a shit-ton of grapes eventually requires. But he finally got it done.

He even submitted it to Enthusiast...

and managed to break the mendoza line of wines (I agree it's generally a scale of 86-100 the vast majority of the time... and I've had 86's that were pretty good).

He rocked an 84. Which is very difficult to do with Dundee Hills Pinot. Sitting on the shelf around here for like $13.99. I'm guessing he's probably into it for that much.

Which makes the rest of us laugh our asses off.

Posted: **Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:30 am**

Dins points all good, and a good look at the business side of the wine industry. The one thing anybody should take away from all of this is that is takes a fuck ton of money to even get started. My son was approached about investing $ 25,000 in a winery, well one of those rent space we have some cases but need cash. He passed since the number just did not work out.

I don't have a lot of expertise in the wine making or selling at all. My experience is on establishment and then the agronomic side of growing grapes. Grapes are a pretty easy crop to grow, but have pretty steep labor inputs. This fall picking and crush is looking pretty good, since the thing that fucks it up in this area is rain bringing humidity levels up, getting some various kinds of mold going , but that is looking like a complete non issue at this point.

We have been working with injections of compost tea on a few test plots this season and are anxious to see that comes up with that.

Posted: **Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:51 pm**

Derron wrote:The one thing anybody should take away from all of this is that is takes a fuck ton of money to even get started. My son was approached about investing $ 25,000 in a winery, well one of those rent space we have some cases but need cash. He passed since the number just did not work out.

The way my friend did it, he was working as a winemaker at an established winery, and part of the deal was that he could make his own. Made 100 cases of cab in 2005, out of his own pocket. Then 100 cases of syrah in 2007. While working on all of the federal and state hoops to jump through to get licensed. Then 9 years ago, moved into the rental space. The problem is, you now have wine, and no brand built, in a state with 400 wineries (I can only image trying to build a brand in California, with many times that many, and corporate garthoks trying to buy anyone who shows any promise). So good luck actually selling any of that wine. My buddy just figured he'd make high-end wines, for a middle-of-the-road price, and that would be a good model -- it is, but has taken forever to get decent sales. There's a catch-22... you need to have inventory for a distributor to have any interest, and if you have inventory, it means you invested a ton with little return for many years.

I don't have a lot of expertise in the wine making or selling at all.

On the production side, getting it in the bottle is "easy" (not really). Getting someone to buy pallets at a times is the hard part.

This fall picking and crush is looking pretty good, since the thing that fucks it up in this area is rain bringing humidity levels up, getting some various kinds of mold going , but that is looking like a complete non issue at this point.

They keep threatening us with rain (I saw a couple of drops the other day). If so, I hope it's soon. I'm guessing the skins are still thick enough that it won't trash the grapes. And as long as it dries right out again, mold shouldn't be a problem. It would be nice if it came and knocked back some of these fucking fires.

We have been working with injections of compost tea on a few test plots this season and are anxious to see that comes up with that.

Fuck gimmicks. Throw some old nails around the base of the vines. Iron never hurts.

Posted: **Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:35 pm**

Viticultural advice from people who don't even know anything about soil or taxonamy or chemistry or ...

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:06 am**

Moving Sale wrote:Viticultural advice from people who don't even know anything about soil or taxonamy or chemistry or ...

You assume much.

Derron has clearly shown expertise in soils.

"Taxonamy[sic]"? I'm quite sure that word doesn't mean what you think it means.

And the last word you were looking for was "biochemistry," so your YHKYOA speaks for itself.

In short -- your shit-take wasn't worth the effort you put into stacking phone books on your desk chair to clack out.

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:43 am**

Duhrron knows so much about soil he adds sand to make it drain better.
And you need to know all chemistry to grow grapes not just biochem.
And you can take your spellchecker smack and blow it out your ass.

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:44 am**

Dinsdale wrote:
Moving Sale wrote:Viticultural advice from people who don't even know anything about soil or taxonamy or chemistry or ...
You assume much.

Derron has clearly shown expertise in soils.

"Taxonamy[sic]"? I'm quite sure that word doesn't mean what you think it means.

And the last word you were looking for was "biochemistry," so your YHKYOA speaks for itself.

In short -- your shit-take wasn't worth the effort you put into stacking phone books on your desk chair to clack out.

I believe taxonomy is what the midget is looking for. The classification of biological things. Like where does the midget classify in human structure ? Where does the lawyer classify in society ??

Did have to take one class in that as part of the 4 years I spent at OSU for agricultural engineering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxonomy_(biology)

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:57 am**

Nice white flag dumbfuck.

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:15 am**

Moving Sale wrote:Duhrron knows so much about soil he adds sand to make it drain better.

Oh you want to dredge that old thing ?? I will just post scientific evidence for you to dispute. Just like you were wrong on the blood draw thing.

https://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/mauisoil/i ... age002.jpg

And you need to know all chemistry to grow grapes not just biochem.

If anybody out there can offer a translation of this into understandable English it might help figure out just what the fuck you are trying to say.

And you can take your spellchecker smack and blow it out your ass.

But you keep posting incorrect spelling with your shit takes..what is a person supposed to do ?

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:52 am**

We have all seen your cute little triangle. Do you have any idea what soil structure actually is? Of course you don't.
As for blood draws. You poked a bunch of dead guys. So what?

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:54 am**

Derron wrote:
But you keep posting incorrect spelling with your shit takes..what is a person supposed to do ?

Good grief. :doh:

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:34 am**

Moving Sale wrote:We have all seen your cute little triangle. Do you have any idea what soil structure actually is? Of course you don't.

As for blood draws. You poked a bunch of dead guys. So what?

Once again your comprehension abilities are severely impaired. I never did say I did it you fucking tard. I stood there and watched the MX do it a couple hundred times. But that is not the real point, the point is you were wrong about needing a warrant for a blood draw on a dead person, if the dead person was subject to an ME exam. Pity those who may need your "lawyer" skills, unless you are a public defender, then it all makes sense.

Tell us this, with your ass shot so full of holes on a daily basis, how do you keep your shit in your toilet ?? I mean that shit must spray everywhere when you go to pinch one off through about 20 holes in your ass, unless of course you just let it flow from your mouth and then convert it to a T1B take.

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:55 am**

I never said you needed a warrant. I said 88's statement was tyrannical. What were you saying about reading comprehension?

Posted: **Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:46 pm**

How many of those wineries use Mega Purple? If so, scratch them off the list.

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T1B

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